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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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If Mathilde codifies a spell, then anyone can cast it without having to replicate her mental state and understanding of Ulgu. That's what codifying it means.

SuperSonicSound said:
Yea but they might be able to take what we've made and create a different spell that does the same thing and when they're done creating said spell every mage can learn it. The impressive thing about a human mage is that they can intuit gaps in their understanding to bridge holes in their learning and bypass a lack of knowledge. HOWEVER, that's only in relation to their own magical understanding they cannot as a general rule do that with other human magics that have gaps/missing knowledge in their spell theory/framework unless the person that made said spell operates on a almost identical paradigm, as in equivalent to master/apprentice.

So the human benefit is great on a individual level but it makes expanding knowledge difficult, now in theory humans are able to codify those intuited gaps to allow any human to learn to cast that spell but in practice it's not that simple and it doesn't help all that much with creating the next spell because the human doesn't learn the theory behind what they intuited, it's just as black boxed for them as it was previously.

There's that as a well, once it's codified presumably any Elf should be able to cast it.
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Most of the quotes being used in this discussion are from the last time I had this argument with you. You seem to be completely unable to accept the fact that mysticism can outdo a more detached 'scientific' approach to magic no matter how many times I explicitly say that it can and does. If you cannot or will not accept WoQM on this matter, please stay out of the debates concerning it.
 
If mystic nonsense allows humans to create say, ten times as many spells as the elves do but they can only codify four of them, then humans are creating 4 times as many codified spells as the elves. Ergo: humans are outperforming elves by this metric.
 
MonkeyTypewriter said:
If mystic nonsense allows humans to create say, ten times as many spells as the elves do but they can only codify four of them, then humans are creating 4 times as many codified spells as the elves. Ergo: humans are outperforming elves by this metric.
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Sure, but I don't think we've been given any stats on how many spells either race creates, or how many are codified by humans.
 
Well if the Laurelorn vote goes through, then in a few years Mathilde will know enough about elven magic to take very definitely about its strengths and weaknesses compared to human magic. I smell a paper!

Won't that be nice? There has to be some sort of college favor bonus for being able to academically dunk on elf magic.
 
Briefvoice said:
Well if the Laurelorn vote goes through, then in a few years Mathilde will know enough about elven magic to take very definitely about its strengths and weaknesses compared to human magic. I smell a paper!

Won't that be nice? There has to be some sort of college favor bonus for being able to academically dunk on elf magic.
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on one hand: dunk on elf mages...

on the other hand: an't ever going to get into the white tower after...

choices, choices....
 
picklepikkl said:
If some emergency comes up, then I imagine one of the other dwarf-friend wizards will be tapped to deal with it if we're out of the Karak at the time, but for any wizard business that can wait, why wouldn't they just wait?
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There's a not insignificant amount of wizard business that you don't really know whether it can wait or not until a wizard takes a look at it.
 
Alright! Looking forward to this.

As far as traits go, I feel like we did a couple of significant things, so here's my joke list! (Note: please please please do not take this as me asking for any of these or trying to presume on the storyteller here. This is *strictly* for entertainment purposes)

You've got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, Know When To Walk Away. Matilde successfully restrained herself from taking a gamble on poor odds. +Responsibility things!

There's torrent-crafters, and TORRENT-crafters. ++Magical amperage!

Spending all the time and effort to keep up with the minor people she was responsible for shows She Doesn't Forget the Little People. +Inspires loyalty!

On the other hand, perhaps the most important reason for her sucess is her willingness to Make A Deal With the Devil. She traded with chaos dwarves, gave silver to slaaneshi tribes, and played by norscan rules when seeking passage. ++Villainous alterego!



Jyn Ryvia said:
Going to be honest, it might be time to dump that AV-DF on the Runesmiths to look into arcane dwarf.
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And we're about to have a plausible IC reason to know about it and want it. I'm in the moment we do.

pucflek said:
one more Edit:
Talking about Teclis, that guy is legitimately terrifying. He was apparently born in 2157. He was basically an elf baby when he kicked Malekith (who was 7000 years old at that point) in the nuts in battle of Finuval plains (2301).
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I like that it points out how age isn't everything, and newbies can take on the monsters of the setting sucessfully. :)

TotallyNotEvil said:
And humans can do what elves can't- a spell that's mathematically impossible for an elf just needs a human to kick down the door and go with the flow and it somehow works.
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I feel like the elf PoV on this conversation would be something like:

Human- "So I was driving my car through the woods at night, you know, one of those really twisty roads? And wouldn't you know it but both my headlights blew out."

Elf- "Well that sucks, how did you get those fixed in the mid-"

Human- "-so I just kept going and sped up a bit because I was running behind, and wouldn't you know it but as soon as I got out of the woods the moon gave me enough light to see the rest of the way!"

Elf- "Excuse you, WHAT? How?!?!"

Human- "Well, you know, I just kinda steered on instinct?"

consequences said:
So elgi, if you've got all those tomes
And you want some more waystones
Dial 1-900-MATHILD
I'll bring them ulgu thoughts
Eonir got stacks

Eonir got stacks

(Signal for a council cuz they got those stacks)
(Signal for a council cuz they got those stacks)
(Signal for a council cuz they got those stacks)
(Signal for a council cuz they got those stacks)
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This is a pure and wonderful work of genius. I want a music video.
 
Ericwinter said:
Supposedly the Laurelorn library is twice as old and hasn't been torched by an angry god, IIRC. Not sure we would want to bother with the White Tower after that. :V
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Better yet, when and if we finally get to the white tower, we get to dunk on them-

"Oh, this is all you've got from Caledor? Disappointing, I've read all these already, and was hoping for something novel."

Like, imagine the looks on faces.

Honestly, I'm happy to develop a bit of loyalty to the 'empire' elves over the high elves- they have direct and practical reason to be less looking-down-thier-noses smug, more respectful and friendly.

So we get elves we have some leverage over running at about 1/3 the level of dickishness we could normally expect. That's an improvement worth protecting!

(And I say this as an elf fangirl, ngl. Although the helmets scratch at my sense of aesthetics relentlessly, so maybe less a fan of elves in WH than elsewhere.)
 
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Ericwinter said:
Supposedly the Laurelorn library is twice as old and hasn't been torched by an angry god, IIRC. Not sure we would want to bother with the White Tower after that. :V
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I'm pretty sure that the Library of Hoeth that Khaine burned down in myth isn't the literal White Tower of Hoeth in Saphery. Not least because the Tower was built comparatively late, as far as major Elf institutions go.
 
Even though I'm perfectly fine with Laurelorn, because B O O K. However, my rigorous scientific method helped me to vote for Kislev, so I am legally obligated to at least make one proper effort post to support my vote. I am also quite late with this since I procrastinate a lot and get distracted by shiny objects quite easily. Anyway, here is why people should vote Kislev.

Kislev is willing to back us to the hilt on the Waystone Project. We need expensive equipment? Done. Ice Witches? Prince will marry one if it gets their support. A few armies thrown into Troll Country? Sure, here they are, Mathilde. Need a mountain built to put your massive fuck off Chaos tower on top of? The Prince will gather the boys and get building. I am only slightly exaggerating here, since if we can give a valid reason, it is clear the Prince will do it.

Kislev don't just want this project to succeed, they NEED it. Praag is a clear example of why the Prince is willing to promise such support. The city is still soaked in corruption and its been close to 200 years since it was sacked by Chaos. That is only one of the more obvious patches of corruption in northern Kislev, and doesn't count the slowly advancing Chaos Wastes. Troll Country regularly spits out horrific abominations and there is always a low level border conflict with the various flavours of Norscan, Kurgan, Kul and others.

What Mathilde has offered through her actions with Karak Vlag, and before that with Karak Eight Peak's and Drakenhof, is proof that she can succeed at pushing back the darkness. At actually winning for once, instead of only losing by inches. Karak Vlag was lost for centuries, swallowed by Chaos and no one even in their wildest dreams expected it to reappear.

Then Mathilde wandered through, yanked it out of the warp and went into the Chaos Wastes to punch Khorne with the Kislevite gods and Ranald (who may or may not be one of them). Not only that, she survived! The Prince wants some of that success for his country and will do much to make it happen.

Kislev might be one of the more dangerous options, but it will also be one of the more exciting and focused. People have said that Praag is too full of Dhar and too vulnerable to Chaos, but really that would be an issue to a certain degree everywhere. However, by placing the project in Praag, there is a very visible reminder for everyone involved what they are working towards and fighting against. Having to avoid the puddles of blood from the bleeding cobbles every day will go a long way to getting cooperation. It's also very easy to measure success and find easily achievable goals (may actually be extremely hard), since one of them will be the cleansing of Praag and I think that is something the project could manage. It just requires the Project to be there for it to happen.

Vote Kislev to help the Shield of the Old World and live up to the belief of Prince Boris. He believes in us. Let us prove he isn't wrong.
 
[X] Kislev

Fine with any of the options, but the above argument convinced me to throw my support behind kislev, sounds like a cool thing, though the elven books would be fine as well :)
 
notanautomaton said:
I'm pretty sure that the Library of Hoeth that Khaine burned down in myth isn't the literal White Tower of Hoeth in Saphery. Not least because the Tower was built comparatively late, as far as major Elf institutions go.
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The precursor in the mortal realm to the White Tower is said to be the Library of Caledor, which is the library of the person rather than the kingdom, so it's likely it would have been located in Tor Anlec, the capital of Nagarythe. So it almost certainly was pretty thoroughly destroyed in the original Elven civil war and if any of it survived it would have been for long because every time the Druchii invade they rebuild atop the rubble and every time they're expelled once more everything they built is pulled back down.
 
BoneyM said:
The precursor in the mortal realm to the White Tower is said to be the Library of Caledor, which is the library of the person rather than the kingdom, so it's likely it would have been located in Tor Anlec, the capital of Nagarythe. So it almost certainly was pretty thoroughly destroyed in the original Elven civil war and if any of it survived it would have been for long because every time the Druchii invade they rebuild atop the rubble and every time they're expelled once more everything they built is pulled back down.
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The poster I was replying to was specifically talking about the White Tower though
 
Inspirit said:
Even though I'm perfectly fine with Laurelorn, because B O O K. However, my rigorous scientific method helped me to vote for Kislev, so I am legally obligated to at least make one proper effort post to support my vote. I am also quite late with this since I procrastinate a lot and get distracted by shiny objects quite easily. Anyway, here is why people should vote Kislev.

Kislev is willing to back us to the hilt on the Waystone Project. We need expensive equipment? Done. Ice Witches? Prince will marry one if it gets their support. A few armies thrown into Troll Country? Sure, here they are, Mathilde. Need a mountain built to put your massive fuck off Chaos tower on top of? The Prince will gather the boys and get building. I am only slightly exaggerating here, since if we can give a valid reason, it is clear the Prince will do it.

Kislev don't just want this project to succeed, they NEED it. Praag is a clear example of why the Prince is willing to promise such support. The city is still soaked in corruption and its been close to 200 years since it was sacked by Chaos. That is only one of the more obvious patches of corruption in northern Kislev, and doesn't count the slowly advancing Chaos Wastes. Troll Country regularly spits out horrific abominations and there is always a low level border conflict with the various flavours of Norscan, Kurgan, Kul and others.

What Mathilde has offered through her actions with Karak Vlag, and before that with Karak Eight Peak's and Drakenhof, is proof that she can succeed at pushing back the darkness. At actually winning for once, instead of only losing by inches. Karak Vlag was lost for centuries, swallowed by Chaos and no one even in their wildest dreams expected it to reappear.

Then Mathilde wandered through, yanked it out of the warp and went into the Chaos Wastes to punch Khorne with the Kislevite gods and Ranald (who may or may not be one of them). Not only that, she survived! The Prince wants some of that success for his country and will do much to make it happen.

Kislev might be one of the more dangerous options, but it will also be one of the more exciting and focused. People have said that Praag is too full of Dhar and too vulnerable to Chaos, but really that would be an issue to a certain degree everywhere. However, by placing the project in Praag, there is a very visible reminder for everyone involved what they are working towards and fighting against. Having to avoid the puddles of blood from the bleeding cobbles every day will go a long way to getting cooperation. It's also very easy to measure success and find easily achievable goals (may actually be extremely hard), since one of them will be the cleansing of Praag and I think that is something the project could manage. It just requires the Project to be there for it to happen.

Vote Kislev to help the Shield of the Old World and live up to the belief of Prince Boris. He believes in us. Let us prove he isn't wrong.
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Expensive equipment is not going to be an issue here, the only thing Praag really promises others do not are the ice witches and hags and a boss who is desperate for success (not always a good thing, someone trying to push things too far too fast can be an issue). And the waystone projet is just as much a matter of survival for Laurelorn, they need it not just to not die of chaos, but to make ties with the Empire so those idiot humans would stop chopping down their trees.

What we need is knowledge, not money, and i think Laurelorn is the place for knowledge we will find relevant, hough Carcassonne would also be a major provider in that context thanks to the Fey Enchantress. And both Laurelorn and Carcassonne have the benefit of a boss who not only understands what we are doing, but also have a much more extended timescale they are operating from, so a decade to them is nothing, and if we take a century that might not be an issue either.
 
Glau said:
Better yet, when and if we finally get to the white tower, we get to dunk on them-

"Oh, this is all you've got from Caledor? Disappointing, I've read all these already, and was hoping for something novel."

Like, imagine the looks on faces.

Honestly, I'm happy to develop a bit of loyalty to the 'empire' elves over the high elves- they have direct and practical reason to be less looking-down-thier-noses smug, more respectful and friendly.

So we get elves we have some leverage over running at about 1/3 the level of dickishness we could normally expect. That's an improvement worth protecting!

(And I say this as an elf fangirl, ngl. Although the helmets scratch at my sense of aesthetics relentlessly, so maybe less a fan of elves in WH than elsewhere.)
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We can't really call them Empire elves. Imperial dwarfs live in imperial cities and towns. Halfings have their own province and electoral vote. The elves are merely an independent enclave within the Empire until they come to their senses and realize that makes them lower than halflings.
 
To be frank, my only question with choosing Laurelorn is the question of how much autority we'll be able to have. After all, they are the only choice where I could see someone else than us being project lead. I feel that since they were the ones to approach us the power dynamics are a bit different from the other options.

I mean, I can't help but feel that having a human lead a Laurelorn governemental project might cause some ruffled feathers and have political implications...
 
Tim811 said:
We can't really call them Empire elves. Imperial dwarfs live in imperial cities and towns. Halfings have their own province and electoral vote. The elves are merely an independent enclave within the Empire until they come to their senses and realize that makes them lower than halflings.
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Aren't halflings perfectly normal citizens though?
 
Sparsebeard said:
To be frank, my only question with choosing Laurelorn is the question of how much autority we'll be able to have. After all, they are the only choice where I could see someone else than us being project lead. I feel that since they were the ones to approach us the power dynamics are a bit different from the other options.

I mean, I can't help but feel that having a human lead a Laurelorn governemental project might cause some ruffled feathers and have political implications...
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If Mathilde's not around there's literally no chance of any dwarves showing up so basically if it comes down to it she can say "i'm in charge or I walk and you're right back where you started which is clearly not enough for you or you never would have proposed anything."
 
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