Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- UK
[X] Laurelorn
The library was called out as something we probably don't have access to if we don't take Laurelorn.
That said, I'll stand by my theory: it's possible we'll be able to get access to specific information from the library, at the least, just like we'll probably be able to get access to other 'factions'. We just won't have free access.
There's also no requirement that we put all our operations in our base.
- Location
- Brazil
Both dwarves and elves are categorically lesser than what they had when they created the Waystones. Just them will almost certainly not be enough.
And humans can do what elves can't- a spell that's mathematically impossible for an elf just needs a human to kick down the door and go with the flow and it somehow works.
I don't think the spells are impossible so much as the means of learning them would strike an elf as somewhat insane, all the more so in the fact that it works.
- Location
- Utrecht
humans can learn/create spells they only "mostly understand". Without Arcane marks, Elves cannot do that.
Well we know elves don't do that because it is sloppy and mutates your soul, we do not know if it is impossible for them or just something they choose not to do.
Basically, for an elf magic is a carefully crafted art, and largely interchangeable - so long as the steps are followed, any given elf of sufficient skill can get the same result out of their spell-work.
A human, however, still has the same basic magical 'framework', but their souls are mutable, and thus can simply alter themselves rather than altering the spell.
Which, in fairness, could lead to something that elves can't do, but I suspect that the Elves higher understanding of magic might let them do it eventually... but possibly not now. Ultimately, though, I suspect humans have very little to offer the waystone project, at least as far as unique capabilities go. If we're very lucky, humans will be able to replicate it.
As I understand it, an elf literally can't cast a spell unless they know how and why it works first. A human can YOLO it instead.
That's not a "won't cast because it's sloppy", that's a "physically impossible to cast for an elf".
An elf could never cast Rite of Way, no matter how many times we showed it to them, because in theory it doesn't work at all. Seriously, we wasted like, an entire AP doing the maths trying to calculate it, gave up, and used intuition to make it instead. An elven mage can't do that.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Do you think the elves will appreciate typo-hunting? Or will us going to Laurelorn require me to turn over a new leaf?
This time, we clean up the approach to K8P, bust through the East Gate, and scout Karag Lhune.
This time, we clean up the approach to K8P, bust through the East Gate, and scout Karag Lhune.
Und-Uzgar Interlude
K8P March End
K8P East Gate Assault
K8P East Gate Victory
Karag Lhune Scouting Part 1
Karag Lhune Scouting Part 2
Karag Lhune Scouting Part 4
Karag Lhune Scouting Part 5
Karag Lhune Scouting Part 7
them -> they
only roughly resemble -> "that only roughly resembles" or "only roughly resembling"
K8P March End
wins -> win
K8P East Gate Assault
clarved -> carved
pour -> pours
approach -> approaches
K8P East Gate Victory
dwarvern -> dwarven
dwarvern -> dwarven
Karag Lhune Scouting Part 1
dwarvern -> dwarven
dwarvern -> dwarven
Karag Lhune Scouting Part 2
them -> it
There's -> There are
Karag Lhune Scouting Part 4
Dwarvern -> Dwarven
Karag Lhune Scouting Part 5
Dwarvern -> Dwarven
Karag Lhune Scouting Part 7
This goblin later gets the pronoun "it" rather than "he", so I'd change his -> its
it's -> its
it's -> its
Dwarvern -> Dwarven
Not how I understand it, they just do not cast like humans, if they did they would get arcane marks just like a human at the very least, since we know that is a fear in their study so it is possible they could develop human-like personal paradigms too, though you would have to find an elf willing to (in their eyes) mutilate their souls so show that one way or another.
- Location
- Utrecht
But they would be able to cast it once we codified it, even with wonky maths. They can replicate the "wonky" parts once we explain the wonkiness away.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Yea but they might be able to take what we've made and create a different spell that does the same thing and when they're done creating said spell every mage can learn it. The impressive thing about a human mage is that they can intuit gaps in their understanding to bridge holes in their learning and bypass a lack of knowledge. HOWEVER, that's only in relation to their own magical understanding they cannot as a general rule do that with other human magics that have gaps/missing knowledge in their spell theory/framework unless the person that made said spell operates on a almost identical paradigm, as in equivalent to master/apprentice.
So the human benefit is great on a individual level but it makes expanding knowledge difficult, now in theory humans are able to codify those intuited gaps to allow any human to learn to cast that spell but in practice it's not that simple and it doesn't help all that much with creating the next spell because the human doesn't learn the theory behind what they intuited, it's just as black boxed for them as it was previously.
There's that as a well, once it's codified presumably any Elf should be able to cast it.
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Magnos III
(Unverified Planeswalker)
So... I'm sorry if is rude to ask but I'm new to the Quest (and also new to the forum, I had read a lot of stuff here before for years now but this Quest was what finally made me register here at SV so congrats to that) and I was curious to know how long the vote normally stays open? Again, sorry if it's rude to ask.
At least 24 hours, though there is no set maximum and more a matter of when the QM has time and inspiration to write.
minimum of 24 hours when the vote opens, then its when the QM wants to start writing.
it's been a little slow at the moment as there are a hundred big votes that now need to be made before going forward.
Of course, we might not be able to explain the wonkiness away.
On the other hand, an elf would probably be much better at doing the math, because... well, the colleges got the Emergency Crash Course, not the grand total of Elven Magical Theory, and then proceeded to go whole hog on the self-mutation route. An elf couldn't do what we do, because an elf-soul is an elf-soul, while ours is full of Ulgu and adapted in a specific way, which we take advantage of to accomplish our goals. But an elf and their extensive theoretical knowledge could go much further to break down our spell into something that they can cast. And that any elf* could cast.
On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure that the Elves have been paying enough attention to what the colleges are doing to realize that this is what is going on. That could be a significant stumbling block, they just look at our spell and say 'well, this doesn't work. Obviously the silly humans are just imagining that it actually functions.' There's also, of course, the fact an Archmage isn't restricted to solely using Ulgu and might just decide that instead of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole it's easier to use Azyr to make an actual mass-airwalk spell or whatnot.
We also have the advantage of masteries, which are mutations of our magic-soul in such a way that it adds an additional effect to a spell and/or makes it more efficient, whereas an elf would have to design an entirely new variant spell (possibly making it harder to cast).
*: And any human magician of the appropriate wind.
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- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Just realised I'd forgotten to chip in with a vote, though it seems to be settled at this point.
[X] Laurelorn
[X] The Grey College
[X] The Grey College
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
I was wondering, do we have any indications so far on what parts of the original Waystone construction were done by Elven archmages vs. Dwarven runesmiths?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
At minimum 24 hours, but beyond that it's usually closed whenever boney is ready to start writing the next update.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Wasn't that for making her armor, not for RoW?
We are literally still at the 'shopping for office space and talking numbers with the research grantees' part of the project.
You know I wonder how many wizards we will be able to bribe with access (direct or second hand) to the Library of Mornings? I mean we joke about Mathy being a cat, but that thing is legitimately wizard catnip. 
- Location
- Finland
Any spell we can codify within the college is castable by an elf.
They might see no need to if another wind works better for the same purpose, but they could.
What is impossible for an elf is spell masteries we gain, and spells that are so unique to us that they can't be taught, or can only be taught to an apprentice.
Because those rely in not only understanding of magic, but in changing the soul of the caster in ways that allows that casting, and elves refuse to do that.
Human wizards gain power past the basic curriculum of the colleges by turning into a creature of magic, elves can't, or won't, do that.
It is both a strength and a limitation. And it allows human wizards do things no elf magister can, potentially rivalling high magic in power, if not versatility.
They might see no need to if another wind works better for the same purpose, but they could.
What is impossible for an elf is spell masteries we gain, and spells that are so unique to us that they can't be taught, or can only be taught to an apprentice.
Because those rely in not only understanding of magic, but in changing the soul of the caster in ways that allows that casting, and elves refuse to do that.
Human wizards gain power past the basic curriculum of the colleges by turning into a creature of magic, elves can't, or won't, do that.
It is both a strength and a limitation. And it allows human wizards do things no elf magister can, potentially rivalling high magic in power, if not versatility.
It was, at least, for making her armor: specifically referencing what I said about Masteries - an elf couldn't make our Aetheric Armor+ robe, because they know aetheric armor, not our Mastery'd Aetheric Armor. They could conceivably design a spell that does what our Aetheric Armor+ does, but it'd be a new, more complex spell, and they'd have to... well, design it first.
An Elf also couldn't cast Rite of Way like we do - they'd have to do the math, instead of shrugging and relying on our Ulgu-soul to do it for them. But an Elven mage is also much better equipped to do the math - and if we ever do manage to codify it, then Elf-dude will probably be able to copy it. That's sort of what codifying is, but there is a bit of leeway for sloppiness with humans, because... again, essentially the core distinction is that every human wizard has unique mostly-advantageous mutations to their soul whereas every Elven mage is fundamentally alike in this way.
If you imagine magic as a machine with a slot for the caster to fit in, the Elves spend a great deal of time and effort at figuring out exactly how to make a slot that fits every possible elf, and have gotten extremely good at this, whereas humans just look at the thing and hammer their soul in by main force.