Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[BurnNote]

He is now, but when we first met him he was very much not.

Click to shrink...

As Orbmorb noted, Kasmir was initially the opposite of open-minded:

Click to shrink...

So? That doesn't actually affect my point. You'll also note that he started being a cool dude before Abelhem died.

And just to be clear, he'd started to be more openminded too. The Morrite recruitment for the army for example, but he'd even reached out for Ranaldians, which is going the extra mile. He wasn't the guy who decided it's best to put the swamp god in charge, but he was already the guy on the journey there, and I think he'd have gotten there either way.

As far as Mathilde was concerned, Sigmar betrayed him too in that whole mess.

 

[MrHobbit]

That was my (in hindsight maybe poorly stated) point. That the "negligible" cost of the Stone Flower is very likely based on the non-magical starting material and not on the cost of the finished product. Because asking an Archmage to come and do anything is bound to be more than "negligible".

Click to shrink...

I understood what you were saying. The Stone Flower only requires a sliver of ability with high magic, it is what has a negligible cost. The reverse-engineered storage, which requires an Archmage, has a low cost. But, explain why it costs more to hire a wizard or runesmith to make a rune than it does a mason. They would be using the exact same material. The only difference is the worker making the rune.

It is absolutely bizarre to propose that the most important driver of cost was just completely left out, without Boney even mentioning it. Can you explain why Boney would do that?

No, I mean starting the full forest of shadows campaign in it's entirely. Investigating the three nexuses, recruiting forces to clear them out, actually clearing them out, and then deploying waystones and tributaries to hold the territory afterwards.

It'll take up a significant chunk of the waystone project's AP budget, and I see the thread as either choosing to start it now or do the elfcation first.

Click to shrink...

I think the thread can just handle the more notable things, and leave the rest of the organization to the Elector-Counts themselves. We can deploy tributaries to Nordland (the minimum to repay the Hedgewise), reclaim a single nexus, and deploy waystones too one of the Forest of Shadows Provinces. We don't need to do everything. Just enough to make sure that everyone else will do it on their own initiative.

That seems like a major military investment, as in we would need actual military forces and boots on the ground to make it work. It wasn't that long ago that the Emperor had to resort to deploying Battle Wizards in Sylvania since no other significant military force could be spared, and they were deployed to assist the already deployed Stirlander military not to do everything on their own.

Click to shrink...

I don't think Boney would offer us a reclaim a nexus option if it wasn't possible to achieve. The most recent statement of the Empire's military ability was when the Chamberlain of the Seal was listing which provinces could help take Marienburg, back in 2483 IC. Nordland and Middenland have ended their conflict, militarily anyways. Ostland isn't nervous because of the ogres in Kislev. Another province could have been made busy since then, but I think it's fairly likely we'll be able to muster a decent force.

Though, personally I'd like to reclaim Mordheim first.

 

[Valmond]

"Sigmarite are all X" runs into the problem that, unless they are very loud about it, we are unlikely to know if any given person is a Sigmarite or not, and the loudest are usually the worst.

I'd expect that average Sigmarite is largely accepting of others gods while thinking that Sigmar is either the best in general, or the most relevant to them in specific, fairly quiet about their faith for the most part, and just goes about their life.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

That seems like a major military investment, as in we would need actual military forces and boots on the ground to make it work. It wasn't that long ago that the Emperor had to resort to deploying Battle Wizards in Sylvania since no other significant military force could be spared, and they were deployed to assist the already deployed Stirlander military not to do everything on their own. I'm not sure there's enough military power to spare to clear out the Forest of Shadows or even if there is the necessary political will to do so and lose so many soldiers in the process, especially when the benefits of having Waystones deployed en masse in corrupted areas has yet to be visibly demonstrated even if Mathilde and the other Project members already know how beneficial it is in principle, it may not be enough to convince the politicians in charge of the military forces needed until their worth is proven.

Click to shrink...

I'm sure all of the provinces neighboring the forest of shadows would love to not only stop it spitting out monsters, but also permanently add it to the lands they actually control. With the means to hold every square inch we take, a friendly native population already entrenched, and assistance from both the dwarves and the elves, the calculus of risk/reward tilts heavily in favour of profit.

Yeah, it won't be easy, I'll never claim that, but I think getting everything lined up to undertake it would be simpler than we might expect.

 

[picklepikkl]

I don't think Boney would offer us a reclaim a nexus option if it wasn't possible to achieve.

Click to shrink...

So, in point of fact, Boney isn't. The Nexus options are not "reclaim this Nexus"; if they were, the Marienburg option would be significantly more fraught, to say the least! They're options to investigate. Picking the Forest of Shadows option means trying to figure out what those Nexuses' current status is. Maybe doing so successfully will unlock a followup reclamation action; maybe reclamation will happen automatically like it did for Athel Yenlui; maybe it's Not Mathilde's Problem and the question is outside the scope of the Project. But we don't need to have an army onside to take the Forest of Shadows options, we can just do it.

 

[MrHobbit]

So, in point of fact, Boney isn't. The Nexus options are not "reclaim this Nexus"; if they were, the Marienburg option would be significantly more fraught, to say the least! They're options to investigate. Picking the Forest of Shadows option means trying to figure out what those Nexuses' current status is. Maybe doing so successfully will unlock a followup reclamation action; maybe reclamation will happen automatically like it did for Athel Yenlui; maybe it's Not Mathilde's Problem and the question is outside the scope of the Project. But we don't need to have an army onside to take the Forest of Shadows options, we can just do it.

Click to shrink...

Rephrase it as "plan to offer" then. I hadn't intended it to be seen in the present tense, but I used imprecise phrasing. Boney has mentioned plans to add nexus reclamation actions once there are more nexuses to reclaim than the Marcher Fortress.

There's three nexuses to reclaim in the Forest of Shadows. I doubt that reclamation would be automatic, simply because Mathilde has to split her time between those three nexuses. Unlike Athel Yenlui, they are all deep in enemy territory and potentially corrupted. She could kill the guardian of the Blood Fane, as it isn't inhabited by an army or Melkhior, but it's guarded by a Khornate minotaur. I doubt we'd be able to turn Mordheim back on just after finding it.

What other nexuses are there even to reclaim outside of those four? Mousillon?

 

[pucflek]

The Stone Flower only requires a sliver of ability with high magic, it is what has a negligible cost.

Click to shrink...

Absent all else, which i am not really that interested in talking about, this is something that i think requires reframing. High Magic requires one to be an Archmage in the first place is the thing. Like, maybe a trainee sure, but you still have to spend minimum of two centuries mastering all 8 winds up to elven standard to even begin learning it.

Thus the only people who know high magic are either archmages, or people already really far on the track to become an archmage. There's not gonna be a big supply of either.

EDIT: Considering that Archmages probably don't die all that often, i would actually argue that people beginning to grasp high magic are less abundant than fully realized Archmages, otherwise the archmage ranks would be swelling. So either people training for the position are rather few, drop out (doubtful, because they already spent two centuries just getting the prerequisitives to start), or Archmages suffer pretty consistent attrition outweighing new inductees, which feels wrong.

 

[Tobtorp]

Absent all else, which i am not really that interested in talking about, this is something that i think requires reframing. High Magic requires one to be an Archmage in the first place is the thing. Like, maybe a trainee sure, but you still have to spend minimum of two centuries mastering all 8 winds up to elven standard to even begin learning it.

Thus the only people who know high magic are either archmages, or people already really far on the track to become an archmage. There's not gonna be a big supply of either.

Click to shrink...

That is certainly true but as I understand making the stone flower is like stupidly easy if you actually can do it.
It's still bound by supply and demand but the rate of production should be higher then more difficult options

 

[pucflek]

That is certainly true but as I understand making the stone flower is like stupidly easy if you actually can do it.
It's still bound by supply and demand but the rate of production should be higher then more difficult options

Click to shrink...

Honestly i'm not really all that bound up in logistics, whatever happens, happens. Im mostly just interested in the demographic question this presents. I've edited in a passage after you replied that reflects that.

 

[MrHobbit]

Absent all else, which i am not really that interested in talking about, this is something that i think requires reframing. High Magic requires one to be an Archmage in the first place is the thing. Like, maybe a trainee sure, but you still have to spend minimum of two centuries mastering all 8 winds up to elven standard to even begin learning it.

Thus the only people who know high magic are either archmages, or people already really far on the track to become an archmage. There's not gonna be a big supply of either.

EDIT: Considering that Archmages probably don't die all that often, i would actually argue that people beginning to grasp high magic are less abundant than fully realized Archmages, otherwise the archmage ranks would be swelling. So either people training for the position are rather few, drop out (doubtful, because they already spent two centuries just getting the prerequisitives to start), or Archmages suffer pretty consistent attrition outweighing new inductees, which feels wrong.

Click to shrink...

High Elf mages can take the Lore of High Magic in 4th Edition, 5th Edition, 6th Edition, 7th Edition, 8th Edition, Total War: Warhammer, and The Old World. The Lore of Athel Loren is also likely to be High Magic. Wood Elf mages can take it in 6th Edition and The Old World. Wood Elf mages can also take the Lore of High Magic in The Old World.

I wouldn't disagree that there are more very experienced High Mages than there are ill-experienced. But it is conclusive that you don't need to be an archmage to use High Magic.

 

[Sparsebeard]

I understood what you were saying. The Stone Flower only requires a sliver of ability with high magic, it is what has a negligible cost. The reverse-engineered storage, which requires an Archmage, has a low cost. But, explain why it costs more to hire a wizard or runesmith to make a rune than it does a mason. They would be using the exact same material. The only difference is the worker making the rune.

It is absolutely bizarre to propose that the most important driver of cost was just completely left out, without Boney even mentioning it. Can you explain why Boney would do that?

Click to shrink...

My guess would be that there are costs in terms of regents or tools. Another option is that transportation costs are included and the Runic Inductor doesn't need to be done on site while the rune need to rune smith to travel to the waystone's location...

Still, if no regent are needed, perhaps you are right that some part of the labour cost are included. Perhaps a salary?

If a salary is included it could make sense while still not capturing the entirety of the cost of employing highly skilled magical practitionners.

For example, I wouldn't be surprised if the two Grey Lords working in Sylvnia aren't paid the true value of their work. After all, the value of archmage level enchanters' time might be 1000s of times more than a journeyman, but it doesn't mean the salary reflects that.

It would still mean that much of the cost of higher difficulty components wouldn't be comprised in the "Cost". Namely, the opportunity cost of whatever else those highly skilled practitionners could be doing with their time. And the fact that the labour of highly skilled enchanters is limited, both putting a bottleneck on the production capacity AND meaning that those highly skilled enchanters can negotiate their participation from a position of strenght.

If that's the case, it would mean that the "Cost" is the minimum that the componnent could cost (excluding opportunity cost) but that the real price could be much higher. For example, Sylvania might pay close to the minimum for their Archmages (in money) because they are there for their own interests and perhaps part of the price of employment is paid in politial favours by Roswita.

 

[Thebigpieman]

My guess would be that there are costs in terms of regents or tools. Another option is that transportation costs are included and the Runic Inductor doesn't need to be done on site while the rune need to rune smith to travel to the waystone's location...

Still, if no regent are needed, perhaps you are right that some part of the labour cost are included. Perhaps a salary?

If a salary is included it could make sense while still not capturing the entirety of the cost of employing highly skilled magical practitionners.

For example, I wouldn't be surprised if the two Grey Lords working in Sylvnia aren't paid the true value of their work. After all, the value of archmage level enchanters' time might be 1000s of times more than a journeyman, but it doesn't mean the salary reflects that.

It would still mean that much of the cost of higher difficulty components wouldn't be comprised in the "Cost". Namely, the opportunity cost of whatever else those highly skilled practitionners could be doing with their time. And the fact that the labour of highly skilled enchanters is limited, both putting a bottleneck on the production capacity AND meaning that those highly skilled enchanters can negotiate their participation from a position of strenght.

If that's the case, it would mean that the "Cost" is the minimum that the componnent could cost (excluding opportunity cost) but that the real price could be much higher. For example, Sylvania might pay close to the minimum for their Archmages (in money) because they are there for their own interests and perhaps part of the price of employment is paid in politial favours by Roswita.

Click to shrink...

Look, I'm gonna be real with you.

You're making a lot of huge assumptions about things that would be communicated with the playerbase were they actually true. Boney does not hide things from us unless Mathilde herself would have no way of actually knowing or otherwise accounting for them if they were a factor that's supposed to be part of her decision making. And Mathilde is not incompetent or unlearned in the art of economics. She has 19 stewardship which is enough that it's described as "You've developed an intuitive grasp of business, exchange and logistics." She has an economic focused skill described as "Your long relationship with the EIC has given you hard-won insights into the movement of goods and money."

Under no circumstances would Mathilde not include the all important necessity of accounting for wages or cost of transport and materials for a project she's working on. Unless you can come up with a reason why Boney would be hiding this info from us there should be no reason to assume it isn't already accounted for.

 

[Tasoli]

That was my (in hindsight maybe poorly stated) point. That the "negligible" cost of the Stone Flower is very likely based on the non-magical starting material and not on the cost of the finished product. Because asking an Archmage to come and do anything is bound to be more than "negligible".

Click to shrink...

If that's the case, it would mean that the "Cost" is the minimum that the componnent could cost (excluding opportunity cost) but that the real price could be much higher. For example, Sylvania might pay close to the minimum for their Archmages (in money) because they are there for their own interests and perhaps part of the price of employment is paid in politial favours by Roswita.

Click to shrink...

*le sigh* I know this is something thread keeps getting back to it but it is a misinformation so please stop spreading it;

"We also did a delve of College libraries for Wind storage mechanisms," Elrisse says, "both enchantment- and material-based." The paper she slides over to you lists a number of options, charted by material cost, craftsman-hours, Wizard-hours, and approximate magical throughput. You slide it over to Thorek, who spends a moment calculating exchange rates before adding a few Rune-based options at the bottom.

Click to shrink...

Here is the source. Clearly costs include everything.

 

[MrHobbit]

My guess would be that there are costs in terms of regents or tools. Another option is that transportation costs are included and the Runic Inductor doesn't need to be done on site while the rune need to rune smith to travel to the waystone's location...

Click to shrink...

Realms of Sorcery does not mention reagents being necessary to making runes and Thorek wasn't described using them when he made it. Runesmiths would provide their most of their own tools and most enchanters would do that to, because they'd be familiar with their own stuff. When we experimented with AV with Thorek, he called in parts of his workshop from Karak Azul. When Kragg was making the Burning Shadows tower, Mathilde never mentioned providing him with a hammer. I do not recall us ever using reagents while enchanting.

You are still making this up. You have still yet to explain why Boney would exclude the cost of labor from the cost and not say a single thing about it. And no, being paid in favors does not make it cheaper. You're just paying them something equivalent to it in a different means. Take the debt we owed to Boris that he transferred to Helga. If we had paid in a boon, we would have owed her a boon worth 2,200 gold coins. There is no way in hell that an archmage would devalue their work so.

Do you still stand by your assessment that low cost components cost about as much as a 'very small building' in comaprison to the trivial cost of 1-10gc?

Trivial or negligable are probably any thing below 1-10 gc.

Low would probably be the cost of a very small building or small renovations perhaps.

Click to shrink...

 

[avatar11792]

No, I mean starting the full forest of shadows campaign in it's entirely. Investigating the three nexuses, recruiting forces to clear them out, actually clearing them out, and then deploying waystones and tributaries to hold the territory afterwards.

It'll take up a significant chunk of the waystone project's AP budget, and I see the thread as either choosing to start it now or do the elfcation first.

Click to shrink...

Actually I want to do that in reverse. If we go on elf vacation it will refine our awesome wizard powers, we learn cool s*** from the elves, and will finally be able to refine our sword wielding techniques to a higher level than what we have now.

The Forest of shadows has a lot of scary stuff in it, which I do remember from the SV game dynasty of dynamic alcoholism. Though that was a particular interpretation of the forest of shadows, and obviously this game would have a different one, it does illustrate just how damn dangerous that entire region is. I'd rather our character gets a level up with the high elves then tackle Forest of shadows and the other way around.

 

[Talon TigerDino]

Nexus Reclamations would probably be an entire Arc like the Waystone Project, K8P, and Stirland Advisor were. Those are pretty big military campaigns.

In any case Elfcation Break! Kazador Training! Chaos Orc Killing! That'd be the key components of my next turn. I crave novel foes and extreme violence.

 

[Ergosum]

I'd rather wait a little before we go reclaiming the FoS Nexuses. Going there will require convincing the local Elector Count to send an army to a bloody battle, and we'll have better chances of succeeding if we already have flashy results; and it won't be too long before Praag or the Black Water start visibly improving (the latter was projected to reduce magic levels to "a quarter to a twentieth of the current levels within a year of completion"). In the meantime we could Do Something about Mordheim: Ostermark cleansed it a couple decades ago so they have the ability and likely the will to do it again; and even if the Nexus is damaged beyond repair, we could just put a dozen regular Waystones and connect them to the rest of the Ostermark or Stirland Networks, or even send the magic downriver to Altdorf.

On the other hand, now is the perfect time to go on Elfcation. We've finally started deploying Waystones, we've set up the means (theoretical and logistical) and given a lot of people reasons to keep making them even if something bad happened to Mathilde; we've even completed everything about the Orbs. And after going all in on her job last turn, nobody will complain if Mathilde takes a small break.

 

[Derpmind]

Place your bets now, everyone: what do we think the external social will be for this turn?

I'm putting my metaphorical money on getting approached by the Colleges for some sort of deal given the books we got from the Library of Mournings last turn.

Click to shrink...

Gonna go for a longshot: Sigmar is gonna show up to recruit Mathilde to join the team for an epic heist adventure. He's heard Mathilde is a top-tier thief and dwarf-friend, so surely she's a shoe-in?

 

[Natch]

While I agree the actual reclamation can wait, scouting the Nexuses now (or 'now' after the Elfcation but in the same quest-turn) fills the important purpose of actually finding out what is currently camping on them in-character. It's all well and good to say there's a Khornate minotaur guarding the Blood Fane in canon, but Mathilde doesn't know anything about that and more importantly that might not be true at all in the Boneyverse.

In particular, remember that the Brass Keep in quest-canon was originally the fortress home of the Halethan Hedgewise granted to them by Sigmar. While they may or may not be able to contribute much to reclaiming it, they would almost certainly be the choice to re-occupy the fortress afterward, and helping them officially establish themselves as a Cult in charge of Important Things, with Haletha as a recognized goddess, would itself be as big a win as the actual nexus restoration.

 

[BurnNote]

Gonna go for a longshot: Sigmar is gonna show up to recruit Mathilde to join the team for an epic heist adventure. He's heard Mathilde is a top-tier thief and dwarf-friend, so surely she's a shoe-in?

Click to shrink...

He's not wrong, is he? I don't think her lust for headpats is less than her dislike of Sigmar. Hell, it even plays into it since that's something to feel superior about. And presumably it's happening to the deserving.

 

[Derpmind]

He's not wrong, is he? I don't think her lust for headpats is less than her dislike of Sigmar. Hell, it even plays into it since that's something to feel superior about. And presumably it's happening to the deserving.

Click to shrink...

I suppose someone in the archetypal Five-Man Band has to be The (grumpy) Lancer.

 

[pucflek]

High Elf mages can take the Lore of High Magic in 4th Edition, 5th Edition, 6th Edition, 7th Edition, 8th Edition, Total War: Warhammer, and The Old World. The Lore of Athel Loren is also likely to be High Magic. Wood Elf mages can take it in 6th Edition and The Old World. Wood Elf mages can also take the Lore of High Magic in The Old World.

I wouldn't disagree that there are more very experienced High Mages than there are ill-experienced. But it is conclusive that you don't need to be an archmage to use High Magic.

Click to shrink...

An elven mage that can do High Magic is an Archmage. That's what separates them from being a Mage.

 

[MrHobbit]

In the meantime we could Do Something about Mordheim: Ostermark cleansed it a couple decades ago so they have the ability and likely the will to do it again; and even if the Nexus is damaged beyond repair, we could just put a dozen regular Waystones and connect them to the rest of the Ostermark or Stirland Networks, or even send the magic downriver to Altdorf.

Click to shrink...

Ostermark also can see waystones being raised in Sylvania right across the Stir. So it'll probably be fairly simple to convince them to agree. Restoring the Mordheim nexus could also help with building waystones in Sylvania: part of its waystones used to be headed there after all.

While I agree the actual reclamation can wait, scouting the Nexuses now (or 'now' after the Elfcation but in the same quest-turn) fills the important purpose of actually finding out what is currently camping on them in-character. It's all well and good to say there's a Khornate minotaur guarding the Blood Fane in canon, but Mathilde doesn't know anything about that and more importantly that might not be true at all in the Boneyverse.

In particular, remember that the Brass Keep in quest-canon was originally the fortress home of the Halethan Hedgewise granted to them by Sigmar. While they may or may not be able to contribute much to reclaiming it, they would almost certainly be the choice to re-occupy the fortress afterward, and helping them officially establish themselves as a Cult in charge of Important Things, with Haletha as a recognized goddess, would itself be as big a win as the actual nexus restoration.

Click to shrink...

I agree that we need to investigate the nexuses first before planning to retake them and that Boney might change who is guarding them. I'd like to take one of the investigation actions (Mordheim or the Forest of Shadows) next turn.

But no, the Hedgewise wouldn't be the choice. They don't have the military strength to do that. Retaking the nexuses is going to be accomplished by armies of the Elector Counts. They aren't going to want to be dislodged from their nexuses (even if they were just learning about them now) when their armies had done the hard work. Aksel thinks the Hedgewise can restore the nexus to functionality, but they don't have the strength to garrison it afterwards. And I doubt the major Cults would be convinced by that argument.

An elven mage that can do High Magic is an Archmage. That's what separates them from being a Mage.

Click to shrink...

...No.

Like, I cited to you that High Elf mages, the hero unit. The mage can do High Magic. I even linked you to a Mage using the Lore of High Magic in the Total War games. Let me directly cite 8e. On page 91, the Heroes section, which comes after the Lords section. The Lords section contains the Archmage unit. The Mage unit description says "A Mage is a Level 1 Wizard who uses spells from the Lore of High Magic or one of the eight Lores of Battle Magic in the Warhammer rulebook." The Archmage unit description says "An Archmage is a Level 3 Wizard who uses spells from the Lore of High Magic or one of the eight Lores of Battle Magic in the Warhammer rulebook." Both Mage and Archmage can be upgraded by one Level for 35 additional points. The Mage is not required to be upgraded to use the Lore of High Magic; it is not something that has to be additionally purchased.

What is it that makes you say this? I'm not aware of anything saying that.

 

[Angelform]

Gonna go for a longshot: Sigmar is gonna show up to recruit Mathilde to join the team for an epic heist adventure. He's heard Mathilde is a top-tier thief and dwarf-friend, so surely she's a shoe-in?

Click to shrink...

You son of a b****
… I'm in.

 

[HeWhoLurks]

I'd assume it's about Mandred since last turn it was said that later in the year there'd be a Grand Conclave to inform the Cults he'll be a Wizard and a public announcement afterwards.