Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
This sounds boring as hell. Why should we bother spending an AP to make this thing? I also dislike the name; it's dishonest. All of the waystones we can build can be mass-produced. Being able to be mass-produced was one of the qualifiers to being included in the parts list. Implying that other waystones can't be mass produced is just a false premise.

Like, why the hell would we want to dot the continent with a waystone that doesn't get the Dwarf rune? That's easy as hell to include. It's a hell of decrease in both coolness and effective for what appears to me only a marginal decrease in cost. Sure, we can build more of them, but why would we want to build something like this? We can just build good waystones for only a marginal increase in price.

And we're going to want to deploy a waystone to Laurelorn so they don't get snippy about being left out! Do we really want this to be the thing we leave to them? I don't. I definitely don't want it to be the legacy of the project the world. The world isn't going to fall apart if we aren't capable of deploying all the waystones today.

I am also skeptical of the idea that the deployment will take, at minimum, five times less time. And framing the cost savings to be so massive when we're only really talking about "low" vs "trivial" just is not convincing.

My whole post is about how the increase in cost is NOT marginal. The difference in material cost is probably at least X2 for pretty much any other design than the cheapest, while the labour cost (and difficulty of recruitment) is from one to many orders of magnitudes.

I wouldn't call an increase in deployment speed a few times to dozens of times faster to be marginal.

If we were in the middle of the Great Catastrophe, sure speed would be king. But we're not. This is a vital infrastructure project and there's no
point in making them less effective if we're not being forced to by a time crunch. The main bottleneck is the storage which is getting easier as time goes on. And we know that the Black Water (a big lake) will have 40 way stones around the shore ready in 4 years, even with the other projects in Sylvania and Praag and the storage not optimized. That seems fast enough to me. We don't need to have the entire network finished or anything before we leave the project.

We still have the best/coolest version for when quality is need, for intermitent riverine contingencies and to connect isolated areas (via a river link to a connected part of the network).

All I'm saying is if we are making a cheaper version, let's make it as distinct as possible (and give it the biggest comparative cost advantage). It will give one more option to rulers and make large scale deployement much more economicaly viable, especially over large areas. If the cost drops low enough, it becomes an option for much more ambitious projects.
 
Last edited:
A: Map Bretonnia and Estalia, where all the energies lead out of to Ulthuan, and while Los Cabos and L'Anguille nexus are presumably fine, finding out any other problems in the chain is pretty important too.

B: Study the Kislev and Laurelorn Networks. We already studied the Karaz Ankor and got the option to possibly re-activate the Barack Varr nexus, so it's only fair to do so for the other participants. Especially Kislev if we can help their network.

C: Forest of Shadows (and probably Mordheim) nexuses. It would be very bad to leave multiple nexuses in the hand of the enemy without even taking a look at them. Maybe we can't do anything right now, but better have an idea of it at least.

At a rate of roughly 2.5 Waystone actions per turn that is precisely two turns
 
From the time I brought this up, the current blocking issue is finding safe materials that react to the waaagh:



For a while now I have been thinking that the rewards we will we get for the Morbs may come in the form of a boon from each of the colleges, similar to the Gold college boon we got for the Skaven research items. We will see if that is actually the case very soon, but if it is then I have been thinking the boon we ask for from the Jade college would be to develop a safe Waaagh reactive mushroom for us to make an Early Waaaghning System.
I will note that while what you've quoted takes "not using Waaagh magic" as a given, we are not explicitly barred from doing so by the Articles. I think our path forward is clear.
 
At a rate of roughly 2.5 Waystone actions per turn that is precisely two turns

Those are just the actions it would be criminally negligible to ignore. My ideal would be:

Map Bretonnia/Estalia and Tilea/Araby (we get two regions per AP and Araby seems better than Badlands. 2AP

Look at FoS, Mordheim, and Bugman nexus since they are all in the Empire. 3AP

(Potentially more action options coming out of these, I doubt for example that Forest of Shadows will be solved in one action)

New Waystone. At least 1AP, could fail.

In addition to Kislev and Laurelorn, studying Nehekhara since it's cool. 3AP

Deployment of waystones in Laurelorn since its host and Forest of Shadows to help Aksel. 2AP

Ask Ulthuan for help with Batak Varr and building new nexus. 2AP

Bring in Damsels. I've come around on this one, not because they would be a big help for the Waystone project itself, except for maybe mapping Bretonnia or studying Athel Loren network, but to squeeze some concessions out of them and for Mathilde to network for potential future cooperation. 1AP

14AP for me not counting anything new popping up. The project has only been 5 years in game, down to 3 and a half from when the team was actually put together.
 
Last edited:
My whole post is about how the increase in cost is NOT marginal. The difference in material cost is probably at least X2 for pretty much any other design than the cheapest, while the labour cost (and difficulty of recruitment) is from one to many orders of magnitudes.

I wouldn't call an increase in deployment speed a few times to dozens of times faster to be marginal.
There is no such divider in material and labor cost. The component cost is just how much it costs to pay for the materials and the labor to produce it. I see no reason to assume that the cost increases exponentially the way you did. You made the assumptions, and provided no proof to back either of them up. There is no such evidence. There is even evidence against it. We know that the costs across the categories are broadly compatible, for example a low cost component in one category costs about the same as a low cost component in another. Two capstones have a negligible cost: the Stone Flower and Runic Inductor. The Carved Rune also has a negligible cost. The Stone Flower relies on High Magic, and enchanters who can do High Magic are not a common resource. But the component is as cheap as hiring a stonemason to carve the rune and hiring apprentice runesmiths to carve two runes.

No, I said I was skeptical of the claim that producing the waystone would be so much faster as you propose. I agree that more efficiency of production can be achieved with such a waystone. But there's only so much economy of scale that can be achieved on such a mega project in a medieval state.

Map Bretonnia/Estalia and Tilea/Araby (we get two regions per AP and Araby seems better than Badlands. 2AP

Bring in Damsels. I've come around on this one, not because they would be a big help for the Waystone project itself, except for maybe mapping Bretonnia or studying Athel Loren network, but to squeeze some concessions out of them and for Mathilde to network for potential future cooperation. 1AP
We won't need to map Bretonnia if we get them to sign the Bokha Palace Accords. That'll probably be part of negotiations if we choose to deploy waystones in Bretonnia. Them joining the Waystone Project would probably be an option too. But I, sadly, don't see much point in exercising that option. It's mandatory to deploy waystones in Bretonnia if we want to get them to join.

Though we need to make sure we have deployed waystones to Laurelorn before getting Bretonnia to join.
 
Last edited:
There is no such divider in material and labor cost. The component cost is just how much it costs to pay for the materials and the labor to produce it. I see no reason to assume that the cost increases exponentially the way you did. You made the assumptions, and provided no proof to back either of them up. There is no such evidence. There is even evidence against it. We know that the costs across the categories are broadly compatible, for example a low cost component in one category costs about the same as a low cost component in another. Two capstones have a negligible cost: the Stone Flower and Runic Inductor. The Carved Rune also has a negligible cost. The Stone Flower relies on High Magic, and enchanters who can do High Magic are not a common resource. But the component is as cheap as hiring a stonemason to carve the rune and hiring apprentice runesmiths to carve two runes.
I mean.... like, bear with me, but if a completed component requires an effort of an artisan of which there are, lets say, low triple digits at most on the continent willing to take the job, then a comparable component not relying on their work will be cheaper, because if there is fewer artisans that can make it, it is logically more costly. Skilled labour is expensive, the more skilled the costlier, and you could hardly find a more skilled labour than High Magic enchanter.

Whetever this knowledge is actually usable with the components we currently know about is another matter entirely. The high magic part can't be shrugged off because the stone flower is the easiest anyway, but elves are also the only ones capable of enchanting the foundation iirc, thought i can no longer recall if thats just issue of complexity or if its high magic too. If its high magic, a switched out foundation could save notable amount of time by having more tappable workforce that can make it.

This is all theoretical of course, because i am not really interested in making different waystone atm. The current version is the ultra deluxe, we are not the ones bankrolling it so who cares about costs, and it requiring cooperation of elder races is a diplomatic boon all of its own, even if its one that hobbles men-only enchanting. Also, it would kinda defeat one of the arguments for the foundation being the complex enchantment. If we switch out to manufacturing something simpler too early, the enchantment will never drop down in difficulty.
 
I do not see all that much value in creating another set of Waystones. The New Waystones that we have made are already pretty good, are superior in some ways to the previous generation of Waystones.. and perhaps more importantly, will have their quality increase, plus their difficulty and cost of production decline as more are produced. Most notably, the biggest issue with the New Waystones, the storage mechanism, is one which we know will explicitly be improved over time.

It's not that there's no value in creating another new design, but, like.. why not move on to newer and better things?
 
Let's say we succeed at making a waystone model ten 10X as cheap and MUCH faster to build.

Then you can use those cheap waystones as pseudo tributaries to cover insane amount of territory at low cost, especially when combined with actual tributaries.

You could have a single High Quality waystone connected to the network via a river then a serie of Mass Produced waystones branching out in all directions. Rings of Mass Produced waystones around a single High Quality one.

If we want to be sure everything gets covered, you'd want the coverage of the circles of waystone to overlap. Thus, the formula to find the area of hexagon inscribed in a circle = 6 × √3/4 × side2​. Here, the radius will be considered as the side length.
One waystone (and tributaries) with an area with a radius of 7km thus covers about 127,3 square km.

Let's say a waystone's range is about 7km with tributaries' help (5km = distance of the horizon at sea + tributaries) and Mass Produced are 10X cheaper.

1 High Quality waystone (and tributaries) - Covers : 14 km circle (127,3 square km) - Cost : 1 HQ equivalent

1 HQ + 1 ring (6 Mass Produced) - Covers : 42 km hexagon (891,1 square km) - Cost : 1.6 HQ equivalent


1 HQ + 2 rings (18 Mass Produced) - Covers : 70 km hexagon (2418,7 square km) - Cost : 2.8 HQ equivalent

1 HQ + 3 rings (38 Mass Produced) - Covers : 98 km hexagon (4964,7 square km) - Cost : 4.8 HQ equivalent

So for the cost of the cleansing of Black Waters (40 HQ waystones) you could potentially cover about 40 000 square kilometers (the size of a small imperial province) of troll country and steepe.
 
If people feel fatigued of the Waystone Project, that doesn't mean we have to withdraw from it and leave all the unexplored areas and still relatively low hanging fruit abandoned. The Elfcation is right there. IC it's just a few months. OOC, it might be as long as the Karag Dum expedition, a ~3 month break filled with action, adventure and new characters. And then we can tackle Nexuses and whatnot, maybe even with a new Asur Elf friend.

If we were in the middle of the Great Catastrophe, sure speed would be king. But we're not.
We don't need to roll them out everywhere just because we make them. And once the Great Catastrophe comes, it will be a bit late to see if such a thing is feasible and then try to ramp up from blueprint to rapid production in time.
 
An Excellent and Cheap but Hard (+Needing Elves, +Needing Archmages, +Needing Runesmiths) option that's turning into an Excellent and Cheap and Doable (+Needing Elves, +Needing Experienced Wizards, +Needing Runesmiths) option is kind of a golden goose if we just keep investing in it.

If we really want to make an easier waystone, we want to downgrade, or preferably knock off altogether, some of the (+Needing Elves, +Needing Archmages, +Needing Runesmiths) tags, so that we can keep putting those into the big stones.

Scraping together enough AP to come up with a mundane capstone and settling for a Mason's carving can let us get it down to (+Needs Clockwork, +Needs River Spirit Negotiation), which turns 'three magical species and a genius' into 'a year of good schooling and a healthy respect for the environment*'.

*Terms and Conditions may apply :V
 
I mean.... like, bear with me, but if a completed component requires an effort of an artisan of which there are, lets say, low triple digits at most on the continent willing to take the job, then a comparable component not relying on their work will be cheaper, because if there is fewer artisans that can make it, it is logically more costly. Skilled labour is expensive, the more skilled the costlier, and you could hardly find a more skilled labour than High Magic enchanter.

Whetever this knowledge is actually usable with the components we currently know about is another matter entirely. The high magic part can't be shrugged off because the stone flower is the easiest anyway, but elves are also the only ones capable of enchanting the foundation iirc, thought i can no longer recall if thats just issue of complexity or if its high magic too. If its high magic, a switched out foundation could save notable amount of time by having more tappable workforce that can make it.

This is all theoretical of course, because i am not really interested in making different waystone atm. The current version is the ultra deluxe, we are not the ones bankrolling it so who cares about costs, and it requiring cooperation of elder races is a diplomatic boon all of its own, even if its one that hobbles men-only enchanting. Also, it would kinda defeat one of the arguments for the foundation being the complex enchantment. If we switch out to manufacturing something simpler too early, the enchantment will never drop down in difficulty.
I wasn't saying that. I agree it would be cheaper and faster to produce, but Sparsebeard was asserting that there were hidden labor costs and that there was an exponential difference between cost tiers. I heavily disagree with that.

The issue with the foundation is the extreme complexity of the enchantment. It does not requires elves to produce, it needs either an Archmage or an enchanter as skilled as Von Tarnus. The Empire just has the ability to hire more elf Archmages than it has the ability to free up its Von Tarnus equivalents, if it has any. Bretonnia would have enchanters as skilled as Von Tarnus, but they're not a member of the Project or the Accords. So getting Prophetesses would be a bit difficult.

I do not see all that much value in creating another set of Waystones. The New Waystones that we have made are already pretty good, are superior in some ways to the previous generation of Waystones.. and perhaps more importantly, will have their quality increase, plus their difficulty and cost of production decline as more are produced. Most notably, the biggest issue with the New Waystones, the storage mechanism, is one which we know will explicitly be improved over time.

It's not that there's no value in creating another new design, but, like.. why not move on to newer and better things?
That's completely fair, but I dislike the inefficiency in covering the continent with a design that has a riverine transmission option, when most of the places it will go in are places that aren't rivers.

Let's say we succeed at making a waystone model ten 10X as cheap and MUCH faster to build.

Then you can use those cheap waystones as pseudo tributaries to cover insane amount of territory at low cost, especially when combined with actual tributaries.
Again with the baseless assumptions. There is no evidence that the waystone would be that much cheaper to build.

Why would we bother making 'pseudo-tributaries'? It sounds like a waste of time. It's a hell of a lot simpler to to just model it off of the system that already exists and has gone millennia without effective maintenance.
 
That's completely fair, but I dislike the inefficiency in covering the continent with a design that has a riverine transmission option, when most of the places it will go in are places that aren't rivers.
How much extra effort does adding the riverine option to the waystone in making them?
Because personally i would prefer one solid design, that works in as many places as possible, to having ton of models that need to be used in specific circumstances.

not opposed to a new waystone model as such, but it would need more arguments than the design we have having too many features.
 
I do want to at least bring in the Damsels and look at the Nehekharan Network. Now we have 'good enough' Waystones, but bringing in completely different paradigms could allow us to actually surpass the original design, at least in some aspects. We've already done that to some degree with the spirit/hedgewise tributaries or riverine transmission, and it's been pretty useful, and that's without outright contradicting Teclisean paradigm. And then we can incorporate all the new findings into a potential New Waystone 2.0, even better than the one we have now.

Also, I'd want to start retaking Nexuses relatively soon. Some like Melkhior's Tower or the Marcher Fortress would be a real pain to take, but others like Mordheim or the Forest of Gloom are a lot more doable, especially if we can get the Bretonnians to lend a hand.

How much extra effort does adding the riverine option to the waystone in making them?
Because personally i would prefer one solid design, that works in as many places as possible, to having ton of models that need to be used in specific circumstances.

not opposed to a new waystone model as such, but it would need more arguments than the design we have having too many features.

Leyline is Simple, Trivial cost.

Mixed is Very Difficult, Moderate cost.

Pure Riverine ones can vary (the Jade for example is Moderately Difficult, Low cost) but reduce the cost and difficulty of the foundation and allow the option of removing the storage altogether, which in addition to being cheaper and easier largely prevent them from turning into a Dhar-bomb if something goes wrong.
 
I absolutely do want to create another Waystone design because the hybrid transmission method is an incredibly unnecessary cost in materials and production effort for every Waystone we deploy inland, which is going to be most of them. That's a Very Difficult production (the same difficulty as the reverse-engineered Storage, but without the promise of getting easier over time) and Moderate Cost vs a Simple and a Trivial cost, which is a big difference and definitely worth an AP when you amortize it over the entire Old World -- think of all the Ghyran enchanter-hours being wasted on Waystones that would never see running water, and then think of all the other things Ghyran enchantment is good for. I also think swapping out the Stone Flower for the Runic Inductor is a win by reducing the demand on High Mages so that they can be reserved for the higher-quality Waystones -- there are a lot more Runesmiths of Apprentice level or higher than there are High Mages -- but that's more of a nice-to-have than a must-have in my book (and I'm even prepared to be convinced about the Collegiate Fascis). I will fight tooth and nail for a non-hybrid-transmission option before we roll out to places like Laurelorn; I will not lose sleep over keeping the Stone Flower.
 
Last edited:
The Waystone Project, Research
@Boney What action should we take to specifically look and non-standard Waystones (within the Empire or otherwise)? I'm thinking of the ones that look least like Elven Waystones and/or have no Dwarven Runes, yet seem to have the function of a Waystone (as opposed to that of a big Tributary). Even better if we find a place where multiple such Waystones of the same model are in the general area, as opposed to a single artisanal Waystone that may have been crafted by a flight school instructor. That would indicate replicability and maybe allow us to remove one of said Waystones and replace it with one of our own, for full on destructive study and reverse-engineering. But I am almost as interested at looking at the most extremely atypical ones, like the non-physical one the Lights showed off in Altdorf.
 
How much extra effort does adding the riverine option to the waystone in making them?
Because personally i would prefer one solid design, that works in as many places as possible, to having ton of models that need to be used in specific circumstances.

not opposed to a new waystone model as such, but it would need more arguments than the design we have having too many features.
It goes from a simple component and having a trivial cost to a very difficult component and a moderate cost. The requirements vary depending on the riverine transmission method. It's not something that I think the thread has to do, but it's a decent amount of extra difficulty and work for something that isn't needed, eh, 60% of the time. But there's the problem of spending AP on that. I wouldn't blame the thread for not being interested.

[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
Requires a speaker of Anoqeyån or Lingua Praestantia. Simple, trivial cost.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Hedgewise)
Requires a Hedgewise. Simple, trivial cost, requires weekly maintenance. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Jade)
Requires a Jade Wizard or Druid. Moderately difficult, low cost. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Spirit)
Requires negotiation with the river's spirit. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation. ? difficulty, ? cost. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (specify which Riverine)
Requirements as per Riverine component. Very difficult, moderate cost.

I do want to at least bring in the Damsels and look at the Nehekharan Network. Now we have 'good enough' Waystones, but bringing in completely different paradigms could allow us to actually surpass the original design, at least in some aspects. We've already done that to some degree with the spirit/hedgewise tributaries or riverine transmission, and it's been pretty useful, and that's without outright contradicting Teclisean paradigm. And then we can incorporate all the new findings into a potential New Waystone 2.0, even better than the one we have now.

Also, I'd want to start retaking Nexuses relatively soon. Some like Melkhior's Tower or the Marcher Fortress would be a real pain to take, but others like Mordheim or the Forest of Gloom are a lot more doable, especially if we can get the Bretonnians to lend a hand.
I want Bretonnians on the Waystone Project too, but I just don't see the need to justify my wants. I want to read Boney writing a Damsel (maybe even the Fay Enchantress!), but what would we do it for? Getting Bretonnia to make some waystone components would be something to do with them, but I don't think we really need any more. The most I can think of is Athel Loren, as already mentioned, and Damsel tributaries. Not very useful. Also unless Bretonnia reaches out to Mathilde first, we won't be able to get their assistance in creating components anyhow before we deploy a model to Laurelorn. Or at least we shouldn't.

And getting Bretonnian assistance in retaking nexuses in the Empire would probably be easier if we forego Bretonnian participation in the Waystone Project. It might be that the Fay Enchantress would be excited enough about the Project to join without much prompting, but at this stage it kind of seems like a waste.

:cry:
 
I want Bretonnians on the Waystone Project too, but I just don't see the need to justify my wants. I want to read Boney writing a Damsel (maybe even the Fay Enchantress!), but what would we do it for? Getting Bretonnia to make some waystone components would be something to do with them, but I don't think we really need any more. The most I can think of is Athel Loren, as already mentioned, and Damsel tributaries. Not very useful. Also unless Bretonnia reaches out to Mathilde first, we won't be able to get their assistance in creating components anyhow before we deploy a model to Laurelorn. Or at least we shouldn't.

And getting Bretonnian assistance in retaking nexuses in the Empire would probably be easier if we forego Bretonnian participation in the Waystone Project. It might be that the Fay Enchantress would be excited enough about the Project to join without much prompting, but at this stage it kind of seems like a waste.

:cry:
I feel you. The issue is that, uh, we're just too cool and awesome? I know there was a fair amount of assumption that we'd recruit the Bretonnians once we hit a roadblock, which I at least was expecting to happen around the Foundation stage, but we just kind of yolo'd through the critical-path researches without too much trouble, and now we're not left with a lot of core research for them to do.

I still want to do a maximum-effort recruitment (figuring out their Iron Orc issue with the Father up) to secure the best possible deal, including Bretonnian aid for future reclamation efforts (especially if we also help out Barak Varr, dwarves can use all the meatshields divinely-empowered knights they can get), but yeah, probably don't need the Fay Enchantress busting down the door to X Gon Give It To Ya at this point.
 
There is no such divider in material and labor cost. The component cost is just how much it costs to pay for the materials and the labor to produce it.

Impossible, the current cost of the Gold Age foundation is low. Which is impossible to attain if the cost of labor includes weeks or months of archmage level enchanter labour.

The same could be said for the Runic Inducer, I doubt ANY amount of runesmith labour could be considered a "negligible" cost.

All evidence points to material costs being just that, the costs of the materials (and perhaps tool usage).

I see no reason to assume that the cost increases exponentially the way you did. You made the assumptions, and provided no proof to back either of them up. There is no such evidence.

We've been told that the cost are adjusted to a nations level so you have to ask yourself what is trivial, low, moderate, high cost for a ruler? My guesses :

Trivial or negligable are probably any thing below 1-10 gc.

Low would probably be the cost of a very small building or small renovations perhaps.

Moderate would be a moderate undertaking, perhaps a regular sized building or important renovations.

For something's cost to be considered high to the WP's clients, I'd say it's probably on the level of major infrastructure or a small military campaign. Luckily, none the choosen components are at that level of material cost .

There is even evidence against it. We know that the costs across the categories are broadly compatible, for example a low cost component in one category costs about the same as a low cost component in another. Two capstones have a negligible cost: the Stone Flower and Runic Inductor. The Carved Rune also has a negligible cost. The Stone Flower relies on High Magic, and enchanters who can do High Magic are not a common resource. But the component is as cheap as hiring a stonemason to carve the rune and hiring apprentice runesmiths to carve two runes.

The component cost is just that, components it doesn't include the labour cost.

We can conclude that while a runesmith is needed to build the runic inductor, the cost of materials is trivial to a nation. Just like the cost of materials to crave a mundane rune into stone is also trival (lol chisels?).

On the other hand, the quantity of materials and usage of tools needed for a runesmith to carve the waystone rune is considered low instead (better quality tools, regents, etc.).

Of course, the cost of having your rune cast by a runesmith rather than a mundane mason is bound to be many times higher.
 
Last edited:
I still want to do a maximum-effort recruitment (figuring out their Iron Orc issue with the Father up) to secure the best possible deal, including Bretonnian aid for future reclamation efforts (especially if we also help out Barak Varr, dwarves can use all the meatshields divinely-empowered knights they can get), but yeah, probably don't need the Fay Enchantress busting down the door to X Gon Give It To Ya at this point.
Tbh, at this point solving that particular issue is probably just accruing goodwill for our name in Bretonnia instead of that sort of benefit. They are gonna have to pay to join anyway.

EDIT: Not that i am against. I want to stretch Mathilde's legs again on something touch less academic than what she has been doing for the last few turns, and this and the Elfcation is gonna be great practice to use in Silver roads Mk. 2, which is something i really don't wanna miss. There is no favour system left to break but surely our reputation can become even more exalted, right?
 
Last edited:
I feel you. The issue is that, uh, we're just too cool and awesome? I know there was a fair amount of assumption that we'd recruit the Bretonnians once we hit a roadblock, which I at least was expecting to happen around the Foundation stage, but we just kind of yolo'd through the critical-path researches without too much trouble, and now we're not left with a lot of core research for them to do.

I still want to do a maximum-effort recruitment (figuring out their Iron Orc issue with the Father up) to secure the best possible deal, including Bretonnian aid for future reclamation efforts (especially if we also help out Barak Varr, dwarves can use all the meatshields divinely-empowered knights they can get), but yeah, probably don't need the Fay Enchantress busting down the door to X Gon Give It To Ya at this point.
As I think I said a while ago, I think recruiting the Bretonnians is cursed. At this point, I think there's a real possibility of moving on without having done anything with Bretonnia because every time it gets close, something else gets a higher priority. I will definitely be sad if that happens, given how interesting I find Boney's Bretonnia.

I do find the repeated talk of getting Bretonnia into the Accords a bit odd though. At the time they were signed, Boney was clear that Mathilde can effectively do what she wants with the Waystone Project, but getting any other power into the Accords requires unanimous agreement from all of the existing ones. We can probably as part of recruiting them to the Project get them to agree to be bound by the Accords (whilst there would be no obligation on any existing signatory to treat Bretonnia as if they were a signatory in return), but does Mathilde really have the pull to get Ulthuan to agree to Bretonnia joining? Trying to get them as an actual member would seem to me to be much more effort than bringing them in to the Project. Possibly Elfcation Protector would help, if it's as successful as some hope.
 
I think the Waystone design with the cheapest marginal cost relative to effectiveness, including potential labour costs would probably be:

[ ] [CAPSTONE] Runic Inductor
[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
[ ] [STORAGE] None
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Spirit)
Requires negotiation with the river's spirit. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation. ? difficulty, ? cost. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.

This is a design that requires no magic users beyond a relatively low skilled dwarves runesmith. I think anyone can talk to spirits and cut deals, it doesn't necessarily require magical talent, and even if that's not the case once a master agreement is made with the spirit of a body of water, then that should be able to cover all the Waystones discharging into it.

It's also portable, so can be transported on a boat while active, and so opens up tactics like moving a set of these more replaceable Waystones to critical locations in emergencies

For example, if a Chaos warband is invading, then given the width of many Warhammer rivers the standard place to engage them is probably at a bridge or ford. You can ship a few of these Waystones to there and drain the local magic, drawing the Winds away from enemy sorcerers, and making them available to your own wizards standing next to them, making it much more likely you have magical superiority. This may also reduce magic levels beyond that required to support the presence of manifest daemons.

We have a Waystone that is perfectly good for standard Waystone tasks.

What we also have though, is an opportunity to use Waystone 'technology' to do other things that classic Waystones don't do, such as be portable and so deployable in a wider range of battles.

There are other use cases for slightly more sophisticated portable riverine spirit Waystones if we cut the right deal with a spirit

To give another example. Say we made a second model of a Waystone similar to the one above save that it also had built in storage. As spirits can teleport things in their river around, you could plug in one of those really riverine w. Storage Waystones into a river you had made a deal with and get the spirit to selectively topping up the storage with the desired Winds from any Waystones discharging anywhere into the river.

That way a Wizard would always have a full tank of relatively controlled Winds to cast from whatever the ambient strength of the Winds, which would potentially synergise very nicely with the previous tactic.

As I say, the opportunity here is to do something new and valuable. Riverine spirit Waystones are uniquely capable of that, I think, providing the people making the deals with the spirits in question know what they're bargaining for and the states in question are willing to bribe the spirits to play ball.

This is particularly the case because most of the places worth fighting over are on rivers. And rivers are natural defensive lines that lots of invasions will be engaged on.
 
I absolutely do want to create another Waystone design because the hybrid transmission method is an incredibly unnecessary cost in materials and production effort for every Waystone we deploy inland, which is going to be most of them. That's a Very Difficult production (the same difficulty as the reverse-engineered Storage, but without the promise of getting easier over time) and Moderate Cost vs a Simple and a Trivial cost, which is a big difference and definitely worth an AP when you amortize it over the entire Old World -- think of all the Ghyran enchanter-hours being wasted on Waystones that would never see running water, and then think of all the other things Ghyran enchantment is good for. I also think swapping out the Stone Flower for the Runic Inductor is a win by reducing the demand on High Mages so that they can be reserved for the higher-quality Waystones -- there are a lot more Runesmiths of Apprentice level or higher than there are High Mages -- but that's more of a nice-to-have than a must-have in my book (and I'm even prepared to be convinced about the Collegiate Fascis). I will fight tooth and nail for a non-hybrid-transmission option before we roll out to places like Laurelorn; I will not lose sleep over keeping the Stone Flower.

About how I feel except I'd switch Stone Flower to Collegiate Fascis. Runic Inductor is inferior to the other two since it can result in more Dhar present so I'd rather not that. And Collegiate Fascis keeps a component designed by the Colleges within it when we remove the Jade's riverine component. So Collegiate Fascis > Stone Flower > Runic Inductor. That can be our main waystone for places not in tune with our first model.

We don't need to roll them out everywhere just because we make them. And once the Great Catastrophe comes, it will be a bit late to see if such a thing is feasible and then try to ramp up from blueprint to rapid production in time.

Great Catastrophe already happened, the Polar Gates collapsed and Chaos is here. What can happen is an Everchosen might attack Kislev within the next few decades (if not Naggaroth or Cathay). It would be bad, but Great War bad, not Great Catastrophe bad.

I do find the repeated talk of getting Bretonnia into the Accords a bit odd though. At the time they were signed, Boney was clear that Mathilde can effectively do what she wants with the Waystone Project, but getting any other power into the Accords requires unanimous agreement from all of the existing ones. We can probably as part of recruiting them to the Project get them to agree to be bound by the Accords (whilst there would be no obligation on any existing signatory to treat Bretonnia as if they were a signatory in return), but does Mathilde really have the pull to get Ulthuan to agree to Bretonnia joining? Trying to get them as an actual member would seem to me to be much more effort than bringing them in to the Project. Possibly Elfcation Protector would help, if it's as successful as some hope.

Why would Ulthuan not want Bretonnia in the Accords? It obligates Bretonnia to share the status of their nexuses when they are threatened, which is something they would want considering one of the two flows from the Old World to Ulthuan is in L'Anguille. Ulthuan probably doesn't care about Bretonnia in general, but will want to ensure that their network stays relatively intact.
 
What action should we take to specifically look and non-standard Waystones (within the Empire or otherwise)? I'm thinking of the ones that look least like Elven Waystones and/or have no Dwarven Runes, yet seem to have the function of a Waystone (as opposed to that of a big Tributary).
The Belthani's waystone equivalents are called Runestones, for extra context.

Impossible, the current cost of the Gold Age foundation is low. Which is impossible to attain if the cost of labor includes weeks or months of archmage level enchanter labour.

We've been told that the cost are adjusted to a nations level so you have to ask yourself what is trivial, low, moderate, high cost for a ruler? My guesses :

Trivial or negligable are probably any thing below 1-10 gc.

Low would probably be the cost of a very small building or small renovations perhaps.

Moderate would be a moderate undertaking, perhaps a regular sized building or important renovations.

For something's cost to be considered high to the WP's clients, I'd say it's probably on the level of major infrastructure or a small military campaign. Luckily, none the choosen components are at that level of material cost .


The component cost is just that, components it doesn't include the labour cost.

We can conclude that while a runesmith is needed to build the runic inductor, the cost of materials is trivial to a nation. Just like the cost of materials is trivial to crave a mundane rune into stone is also trival (lol chisels?).

On the other hand, the quantity of materials and usage of tools needed for a runesmith to carve the waystone rune is considered low instead (better quality tools, regents, etc.).

Of couse, the cost of having your rune cast by a runesmith rather than a mundane mason is bound to be many times higher.
None of this is a citation containing proof that the cost is didn't include the labor cost. None of this is a citation that the price increases exponentially. The turn says the cost of the Reverse Engineered storage is low. It is up to you to prove that Boney cut out labor cost in that assertion. Why would Mathilde forget to include labor cost in that? In what world is it reasonable to exclude labor cost when determining the cost of a component? Why would Boney not tell us that 'sorry, it's actually a lot more expensive than I said it was'?

The cost of the Waystone Project in general does not make sense on an individual scale. No matter the component, it will be immensely expensive. Because you're building thousands of them across a continent. It is pointless to measure it in hard currency. In the post containing the initial vote Boney even asked us not to ask them what it would be. Again there is still no proof for any of these claims. I agree, it is odd that a component that requires an Archmage is low cost. I've noted that myself before. But Boney is not the type of QM to just go, lol lmao, about a basic thing like this.

This is at the level where money stops going clink in your pocket and starts being an abstract concept. It's mostly going to be 'paid for' in favours and influence and various political and economic concessions, but when money does change hands it's going to be things like a wagon full of bullion being escorted by a small army.

We can probably as part of recruiting them to the Project get them to agree to be bound by the Accords (whilst there would be no obligation on any existing signatory to treat Bretonnia as if they were a signatory in return), but does Mathilde really have the pull to get Ulthuan to agree to Bretonnia joining? Trying to get them as an actual member would seem to me to be much more effort than bringing them in to the Project. Possibly Elfcation Protector would help, if it's as successful as some hope.
The Protector will do absolutely nothing to affect the politics of the Phoenix Court. We're going to the boonies of Ulthuan to learn from its edgiest soldiers. It's not going to get much attention from the political players.

But we won't need to get immense leverage on Finubar anyways to get them to agree. Ulthuan has positive relations with Bretonnia anyways. Getting them to agree to uphold the sanctity of the Waystone Network is great. Having Bretonnia outside of the Accords is a weakness to them. The cat has already been released from the bag. Bretonnia is one of the continent's major powers. They can't be kept out of the Accords.

Edit:
I still want to do a maximum-effort recruitment (figuring out their Iron Orc issue with the Father up) to secure the best possible deal, including Bretonnian aid for future reclamation efforts (especially if we also help out Barak Varr, dwarves can use all the meatshields divinely-empowered knights they can get), but yeah, probably don't need the Fay Enchantress busting down the door to X Gon Give It To Ya at this point.
To be fair, Boney probably knew the Project was easier than the thread thought when they wrote that statement. So there might be some purpose to recruiting the Fay Enchantress we can't see right now. But who knows.

Poking the Iron Orcs would (hopefully) put the Damsels on screen, so I'm definitely up for it.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top