Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
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I like the idea. It think it would be a good second or third waystone to build since it's use cases are pretty different.
High Quality (current version) : Lots of storage, high quality rune and high cost.
Strategic locations, high population density areas, very corrupted areas, etc.
Mass Produced : Cheap, leyline compatible, no maintenance needed.
Large tracts of land, uninhabited lands, contested territory, low value areas, etc.
Mobile : Cheap (with some incertitude relative to the cost of the contract with the spirit), high quality rune, mobile, military applications, maintenance needed, not sure if a direct connection to the Waystone Network possible.
Small riverine settlements that can provide the maintenance, used as temporary buffers on military campaigns or to purge areas temporarily, to be used as mobile magical batteries, etc.
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We didn't think the protector on dum expedition would be major either. We can't know what will happen until it happens.
You also bring no hard proof that the material cost includes labour. It becomes a contest of which interpretation is more likely.
The reason labour is not included in the cost is likely because of your following argument. The cost of employing magical practitionners is more than just money and can vary a lot. For example, getting an archmage to enchant their waystone might be free for Laurelorn or Ulthuan if there is one that beleives it's their duty and does it for "free".
There IS however a non-monetary cost to having such a talent working on enchanting waystones rather than anything else they would do otherwise.
Also, there is the notion of availlability. Higher level enchanters are rarer, so even if you manage to get them on the cheap, there is still a limited number of them disponible which limits the speed of deployment.
I think the decision of separating the actual cost of the components make sense in a feudal system where highly skilled magic practionners can be considered to be part of nations and are expected to contribute to their society.
Often, the cost will not be monetray, so much as the fact that those skill magic pratitionners have a limited amount of time. Using their time on waystones mean they can't use it for anything else.
But on paper, hiring wizards, elf mages, runescribes, ect might cost no gold coin to their respective faction since it's part of their duty to their leige/nation.
The other thing is, with the riverine spirit transmission merhod, you don't need a direct connection to the network, as thanks to the spirit, you have an indirect one.
Another, more speculative thought.
A mobile Riverine spirit Waystone could be used to make boats that are essentially wizard towers so can carry WMD.
Given, as I say above, how common battles on river banks probably are, these could be exceptionally valuable, as with the right deal the spirit of the river can keep recharging the tower-boat's batteries so it can be used repeatedly to
With storage included this could be used be sea going ships that can travel into the mouths of rivers to recharge.
Given Eike's interest in naval tactics and exposure to the Waystone Project, this would be an interesting this to involve her in.
Another potential use case for this could be recharging Anvils of Doom. We know that they aren't recharged by AV itself, but by the large amounts of Winds that are released when it undergoes phase transitions.
If we could design a riverine Waystone that could output the Winds to an Anvil as it would to storage or the river, then we could have a spirit sequentially teleport large amounts of the different Winds to the Waystone which are then channeled into Anvil.
I'm not even sure if this last use case needs a Waystone on the receiving end. All it may need is enough riverine Waystones discharging into the river and a deal with the river spirit today that if an Anvil of Power is placed in contact with the river along with some other token to tell the spirit to go ahead then it teleports all the Winds being discharged into the river directly adjacent to the Anvil.
Speculation aside I feel that whether or not we want to make another Waystone model, we should not do so next turn.
We just did an all AP on job effort. Now it is time for a holiday. Go to Ulthuan. Play with our enchanting. Poke our research backlog or codify a spell. Generally take some Mathilde time.
Afterwards we will can come back and see how things are progressing. See if anyone has taken the initiative and order some Waystones for their backyard or if we need to drag the continent to salvation one AP at a time. See if cost or labour are actually limiting factors that need to be addressed. Then we can make an informed decision on what a new Waystone model needs rather than guessing wildly.
We just did an all AP on job effort. Now it is time for a holiday. Go to Ulthuan. Play with our enchanting. Poke our research backlog or codify a spell. Generally take some Mathilde time.
Afterwards we will can come back and see how things are progressing. See if anyone has taken the initiative and order some Waystones for their backyard or if we need to drag the continent to salvation one AP at a time. See if cost or labour are actually limiting factors that need to be addressed. Then we can make an informed decision on what a new Waystone model needs rather than guessing wildly.
A quick and dirty list of things we can still do for the waystone project:
General:
- more waystone designs
- - cheap
- - dwarven
- - low magic
- more tributary designs
- - dwarven
- - college
- - Ranald
- more component designs
Kislev:
- Tributary deployment (attempt #2)
Karaz Ankor:
- build Barak Varr nexus
- recover Black Fire Pass nexus
- rebuild Bugman's nexus
- investigate Norn's nexus
- recover lost Karak waystones (difficulty rating: impossible)
Laurelorn:
- waystone deployment
The Empire:
- Forest of Shadows Campaign
- - recover nexuses x3
- - tributary deployment
- connect the Empire to the Karaz Ankor (via Bugman's?)
- Marcher's Fortress (warning—contains demons)
Bretonnia:
- map network
- secure any lost nexuses
- Iron Orcs?
- deploy tributaries
- deploy waystones
- Athel Loren diplomacy
Telia and Estalia:
- map network
- secure any lost nexuses
- deploy tributaries
- deploy waystones
Athel Loren:
- diplomacy so they won't use the network to go crazy and kill everyone with it.
Ulthuan:
- obtain information about the creation and repair of nexuses
Nehekara:
- map network
Obviously we don't have to do everything on this list (or even anything), and I've probably missed a few things, but it feels like a good framework for what we could focus on for the next few turns.
General:
- more waystone designs
- - cheap
- - dwarven
- - low magic
- more tributary designs
- - dwarven
- - college
- - Ranald
- more component designs
Kislev:
- Tributary deployment (attempt #2)
Karaz Ankor:
- build Barak Varr nexus
- recover Black Fire Pass nexus
- rebuild Bugman's nexus
- investigate Norn's nexus
- recover lost Karak waystones (difficulty rating: impossible)
Laurelorn:
- waystone deployment
The Empire:
- Forest of Shadows Campaign
- - recover nexuses x3
- - tributary deployment
- connect the Empire to the Karaz Ankor (via Bugman's?)
- Marcher's Fortress (warning—contains demons)
Bretonnia:
- map network
- secure any lost nexuses
- Iron Orcs?
- deploy tributaries
- deploy waystones
- Athel Loren diplomacy
Telia and Estalia:
- map network
- secure any lost nexuses
- deploy tributaries
- deploy waystones
Athel Loren:
- diplomacy so they won't use the network to go crazy and kill everyone with it.
Ulthuan:
- obtain information about the creation and repair of nexuses
Nehekara:
- map network
Obviously we don't have to do everything on this list (or even anything), and I've probably missed a few things, but it feels like a good framework for what we could focus on for the next few turns.
That research is already done. It's a big chunk of what the Jades and Lights are contributing.
Didn't the thread want the Protector to get credit for saving Karag Dum? I wasn't part of the thread during the Turn 33 vote, but Boney reads every comment. They often write the perspective of the thread into the quest and Mathilde mentioned wanting credit for saving a hold. I could be wrong, but that seems intuitive to me.
Also Nagarythe is a very different environment than the Chaos Wastes, where we knew at least something valuable was. I don't think we would even get a similar effect if we killed Malekith launching an invasion of Ulthuan. As funny as that would be, I don't think that is going to happen.
I do not have to prove that Boney included the cost of labor in the description. You are asserting that there is a hidden cost to the action that Boney has, not once, ever described. That is a claim you are making. Prove it. Cite evidence.
I can even think of an example where Boney said that it would be unwise to conscript the Jade Order into working for the Project.
I am aware of the concept of opportunity cost. I just consider building actually good waystones to be worth it. So does most of the thread. That isn't a reason why we should spend an AP to create a magic-less waystone. What ever it is, it would have to be more important than the waystone network. That the Archmage, or whichever artisan we are talking about, is willing to work on the Project suggests that it isn't.
And no, mages, Runesmiths, Archmages, ect don't work for free. Feudalism doesn't mean that you can get free labor out of people who have power. If they aren't being paid with gold, they are being paid with favors or other concessions. Take Baba Niedzwenka, for instance. She's not here for free. She's here because Mathilde asked Boris for a favor and Boris paid her something to make her come. We don't know what that is, but she's not working for free. The Dwarves certainly wouldn't truck with free labor. That goes against practically their entire culture. They believe that everything has an objective cost that they won't be budged from. The Elves have political intrigue compensating them (which is not to say that the others don't, of course). They would also charge for their labor. We know that the Kingdom of Caledor charges a substantial amount to make the waystone gold.
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To add some things we could do for the Waystone project that I mentioned earlier - measurement tools, essentially specialised severoscopes.
For magic users to monitor the network:
- Seviroflumometer, to measure energy transmissions. Be able to track additions/damage and pinpoint them. Track gradual changes.
In general, for magic/non-magic as possible.
- Wayshard equivalent
- Waystone measuring - measure absorption rate/storage level/surrounding ambient levels.
For non-magic users to
- devices to check if the rock is a waystone/if it's a clogged danger stone needing a wizard.
I think these would really change what's possible nothing long and short term.
For magic users to monitor the network:
- Seviroflumometer, to measure energy transmissions. Be able to track additions/damage and pinpoint them. Track gradual changes.
In general, for magic/non-magic as possible.
- Wayshard equivalent
- Waystone measuring - measure absorption rate/storage level/surrounding ambient levels.
For non-magic users to
- devices to check if the rock is a waystone/if it's a clogged danger stone needing a wizard.
I think these would really change what's possible nothing long and short term.
- Location
- somewhere over there.
- Pronouns
- They/It
This does seem like a good plan. Taking a turn to mostly step back and take in how our successes have shifted the landscape would be quite nice, and I think more people would be willing to try and knock out any remaining low hanging fruit or secondary goals after we spend a good amount of real world time and updates fighting dark elves instead of poking magic rocks.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I still want to make a cheap Waystone, to cover incredibly large tracts of wilderness/low-value contested territory that it just wouldn't be worth the expense of putting up the more expensive Waystone variants in.
If you'll recall, that was pretty much what Eltharion wanted out of the Project too - a quick and cheap solution he can throw out over Yvresse, instead of the expensive and rate-limited masterworks of Saphery.
...Also, if the action to try and get enchanting insight out of Waystones is limited to when we're on the Project, I'd prefer to try and get the Battle Magic enchanting class and then that done too.
If you'll recall, that was pretty much what Eltharion wanted out of the Project too - a quick and cheap solution he can throw out over Yvresse, instead of the expensive and rate-limited masterworks of Saphery.
...Also, if the action to try and get enchanting insight out of Waystones is limited to when we're on the Project, I'd prefer to try and get the Battle Magic enchanting class and then that done too.
Just thinking on this. The Queen has her personal political agenda to compensate her. The various Archmages she's cajoling to make Waystones presumably all have their own AP Hell just like Mathilde, so the Queen is presumably incentivising them in some way to make Waystones components rather than whatever else they'd be doing if left to their own devices. Or, in some cases she's incentivising the major Houses and the Houses are incentivising their archmages.
The way I look at is is what would it take if someone came out of the blue and asked the thread to have Mathilde to spend an AP on their project. What would the going rate be for that? I assume that any archmage would be charging something similar.
The Queen's personal motivation for the Project is to tie Laurelorn closer to the Empire. That's not a universal agenda amongst the Eonir. I think we were told that the official reason she used to sell the Project to her stakeholders is being able to switch back on Waystone powered infrastructure that is currently deactivated.
There's also:
Kislev:
-deploy more Waystones, particularly in Troll Country
Empire:
-Mordheim: reclaim and deploy Waystones
-Drakwald: IIRC Boney said that 20 Waystones could carve it in half? We should probably do it
-deploy Waystones and tributaries everywhere in general (though that's very low priority)
I didn't say those highly skilled magical practitionners would work for free, only that employing them might not cost MONEY.
And the cost to employ any singular practitionner might vary a lot depending on availability and interest by the magical practitionner. For example you can't expect a magical practitionner to charge the same to his own polity as they would to a foreign power.
Thus, it makes more sense to separate the cost of material from the difficulty of the component since cost of labour is more variable and sometimes hard to define properly.
You still haven't explained how getting archmages to enchant your waystones could be done for a low cost if you pay for labour.
I for one would prefer it, if the waystone runs for 2ish years longer.
Besides the mapping and possible reactivation if nexuses, I would also like for there to be at least one waystone of each type that we invent to be constructed. with that i dont mean "start of construction", but "they are deployed and measurably doing their job". I feel like that would be a nice conclusion mark for the final report (or paper) of the project.
Besides the mapping and possible reactivation if nexuses, I would also like for there to be at least one waystone of each type that we invent to be constructed. with that i dont mean "start of construction", but "they are deployed and measurably doing their job". I feel like that would be a nice conclusion mark for the final report (or paper) of the project.
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You saw the pre-edited version; I just want to make sure you knew I wasn't trying to say that elves only care about political intrigue. We know the Kingdom of Caledor, for instance, charges a lot to make waystones.
Boney has mentioned something similar to that before, if you were interested. They would use College Favor to show the thread plot hooks. With Laurelorn, it's probably a variety of payments: money, treasure, favors, ect.
Our current waystone is cheap though. It'll get easier to make as time goes on. He also got something that he could deploy quickly: the tributary.
Eltharion also wanted a waystone that would break the monopoly that the Inner Kingdoms hold on their production. We have provided everything he wants. Boney has said that we can assume Ulthuan would handle further research and deployment related to waystones for their own purposes. I'm not sure if that's saying they wouldn't appreciate help.
You have not been reading what I have been saying, have you? For instance, take this post of mine. There I quoted Boney saying that these sort of payments aren't paid for with money out of pocket, but rather economic concessions between nations. In the scenarios that money does change hands, it's out of scale for individuals.
The cost remains the same; it just changes how you pay for it. A dwarf Runesmith, who are some of the most obstinate dwarfs on the planet, isn't about to accept lower wages for his work from anyone. He'll just charge differently, whether it be gold, favors, or whatever. Elves are more open to changes in supply and demand, but not to the extent that you say. It would be fairly easy to figure out how much the average Archmage will charge for the storage. Not the least because there are two Archmages directly involved in the Project who can pretty easily say how much they would charge for it. Whether they charge gold, valuables, favors, or whatever.
I don't need to explain how. Boney said that the cost of the component is low, therefore it is low. If labor was excluded from the cost, Boney would have mentioned it. There is nothing like that.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
It'll get easier to make as time goes on, not easy, which is the important part as far as rate limiting goes.
And, to be honest, I don't want to rehash this entire argument again with you.
Switcing gears to non-Waystone stuff to do this upcoming turn, I want to learn Nehekharan so we can finally study those Vampire scrolls and notes we found at Castle Drakenhof. It would also use our Polyglot trait we haven't utilized yet, would be another piece of unraveling the whole Old One language knot, and would be good if we ever study the Nehekaran network.
- Location
- USA
A question, apropos of nothing: How long has Qrech had his dog? I ask because every now and then a voice in some corner of my mind asks whether it's died from old age yet.
Thing is, Ulthuan probably doesn't have the secrets either. When they had to replace a nexus, they didn't build something new, they repurposed something.
That's one of the reasons I want to at least take a shot at creating them, to find out how difficult it might be.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Around ten years, since we gave it to him on turn 24 / in 2481, and it's 2491 now. Since it was a puppy, it should have some years left in it.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
I mean, that might be the secret though. The answer to how nexuses were built might be that they were all repurposed Old some infrastructure all along.