Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[NexusEye]

I wonder, the pyramidions on top of Golden Age Waystones seem to be made of pure Waystone Gold but does it have to be? Could we take the Runic Inductor, cover it in a layer of Waystone Gold, and let the layer of Waystone Gold become suffused with the Wind it is first exposed to repelling other Winds but which is drained by the Runic Inductor inside, protecting the Runic Inductor from absorbing multiple Winds at once and producing Dhar but reducing the amount of Waystone Gold needed per this type of hybrid pyramidion. Doing some quick math assuming each pyramidion of Waystone gold has a base of 25 by 25 cm and a height of of 25 cm and that 1 cm of Waystone Gold is needed we can subtract a pyramid of 23 by 23 cm and a height of 24 cm and get the amount of Waystone Gold needed to form a layer 1 cm thick as well as how much each pure Waystone Gold pyramidion can be cannibalized for to form this 1 cm layer, which is about 5.335 hybrid pyramidions per pure pyramidion. Exact values will vary depending on the thickness of the layer needed and the exact dimensions of the Golden Age pyramidion but this could be a good way of nullifying the disadvantage of the Runic Inductor capstone if we're willing to cannibalize existing Waystone pyramidions for Waystone Gold.

It would unfortunately also nullify the "No Visible Precious Metals" advantage our current Waystone design has over the Golden Age one but as long as it's a similar level of illegal to attempt to harvest the Waystone Gold from these new Waystones as it is with Golden Age Waystones (without authorization of course, we'll have to take Waystone Gold from old Waystones to make new Waystones in the first place if this idea is implemented) i.e. automatic death penalty, there should be a similar level of deterrence and these new Waystones pyramidions shouldn't be harvested by criminals at a rate any higher than the harvesting of the pyramidions of old Waystones, less if anything since some of the criminals might become aware that the new pyramidions only have a surface layer of Waystone Gold so there's less reward to stealing their capstone than stealing from old Waystones.

Then again, i guess Elspeth would not be pouring it on god artifact, she would be pouring it on god, so thats clearly different right?

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We gave up on Divine fingerprinting. If there's a chance pouring AV on a (dead) god directly would produce a Divine fingerprint like pouring it on one of their artifacts would Mathilde has an implicit obligation to not take any part in it.

 

[pucflek]

We gave up on Divine fingerprinting. If there's a chance pouring AV on a (dead) god directly would produce a Divine fingerprint like pouring it on one of their artifacts would Mathilde has an implicit obligation to not take any part in it.

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Yeah that was kinda my read and the last bit was mostly joke.

 

[DragonParadox]

I wonder, the pyramidions on top of Golden Age Waystones seem to be made of pure Waystone Gold but does it have to be? Could we take the Runic Inductor, cover it in a layer of Waystone Gold, and let the layer of Waystone Gold become suffused with the Wind it is first exposed to repelling other Winds but which is drained by the Runic Inductor inside, protecting the Runic Inductor from absorbing multiple Winds at once and producing Dhar but reducing the amount of Waystone Gold needed per this type of hybrid pyramidion. Doing some quick math assuming each pyramidion of Waystone gold has a base of 25 by 25 cm and a height of of 25 cm and that 1 cm of Waystone Gold is needed we can subtract a pyramid of 23 by 23 cm and a height of 24 cm and get the amount of Waystone Gold needed to form a layer 1 cm thick as well as how much each pure Waystone Gold pyramidion can be cannibalized for to form this 1 cm layer, which is about 5.335 hybrid pyramidions per pure pyramidion. Exact values will vary depending on the thickness of the layer needed and the exact dimensions of the Golden Age pyramidion but this could be a good way of nullifying the disadvantage of the Runic Inductor capstone if we're willing to cannibalize existing Waystone pyramidions for Waystone Gold.

It would unfortunately also nullify the "No Visible Precious Metals" advantage our current Waystone design has over the Golden Age one but as long as it's a similar level of illegal to attempt to harvest the Waystone Gold from these new Waystones as it is with Golden Age Waystones (without authorization of course, we'll have to take Waystone Gold from old Waystones to make new Waystones in the first place if this idea is implemented) i.e. automatic death penalty, there should be a similar level of deterrence and these new Waystones pyramidions shouldn't be harvested by criminals at a rate any higher than the harvesting of the pyramidions of old Waystones, less if anything since some of the criminals might become aware that the new pyramidions only have a surface layer of Waystone Gold so there's less reward to stealing their capstone than stealing from old Waystones.

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The problem is we do not know how to reforge Waystone gold, that is why the stuff we got from the Gold College via the old Alchemists is worthless, something about the process of melting it down and the letting it reset makes it lose its properties.

 

[NexusEye]

The problem is we do not know how to reforge Waystone gold, that is why the stuff we got from the Gold College via the old Alchemists is worthless, something about the process of melting it down and the letting it reset makes it lose its properties.

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We don't have to reforge it, merely physically carve apart existing pyramidions into pierces and putting them back together in a way that they form a pyramid shape with a slightly smaller pyramid shaped void within it for the Runic Inductor to go in and make sure there are no gaps. If we aren't capable of ensuring there are no gaps without physically fusing the pieces together we can use smelted Waystone Gold as glue, Mathilde seems to think it should still retain some of the Wind conductive properties of its unsmelted version,

You theorize that copper would work, but you currently have no way to test this. If all else fails, then smelting the Waystone Gold you currently have into wire and embedding it in some other metal to stabilize it would work, but you'd much prefer a method that didn't require either using up a finite and irreplaceable source of materials or cannibalizing the existing Waystones to build new ones.

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[DragonParadox]

We don't have to reforge it, merely physically carve apart existing pyramidions into pierces and putting them back together in a way that they form a pyramid shape with a slightly smaller pyramid shaped void within it for the Runic Inductor to go in and make sure there are no gaps. If we aren't capable of ensuring there are no gaps without physically fusing the pieces together we can use smelted Waystone Gold as glue, Mathilde seems to think it should still retain some of the Wind conductive properties of its unsmelted version,

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Introducing smelted Waystone gold would likely also damage the magical resonance, not to mention that the part we carve out of the pyramidion to get the rune stuff in there would not be properly shaped it fit around another runic core which leads to more reforging so worse conductivity. Keep in mind every stone you take apart for this is loosing not just the stone itself but the deep-carved magical channels leading to it, that is why picking up stones and replacing them in a one to one basis isn't a good idea. The process would have to produce several stones of similar level to the original to be worth the disruption.

 

[NexusEye]

Introducing smelted Waystone gold would likely also damage the magical resonance, not to mention that the part we carve out of the pyramidion to get the rune stuff in there would not be properly shaped it fit around another runic core which leads to more reforging so worse conductivity. Keep in mind every stone you take apart for this is loosing not just the stone itself but the deep-carved magical channels leading to it, that is why picking up stones and replacing them in a one to one basis isn't a good idea. The process would have to produce many several stones of similar level to the original to be worth the disruption.

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As long as the layers of smelted Waystone Gold used is thin enough conductivity shouldn't be a problem, in the same way the small layers of gold we use in real life on the surface of electrical contacts for corrosion resistance don't pose a problem because while they're not as electrically conductive as copper the amount of gold the electricity has to travel through is small enough that the increase in resistance is negligible. You're right though, whether or not cannibalizing existing Waystones for Waystone Gold is worth the cost, including the disruption caused to preexisting Golden Age Waystone leylines, is something Mathilde would have to evaluate and decide whether it's worth it. It's ultimately an option I'm proposing, I'm not demanding that it be implemented and if it turns out to not be feasible then oh well, better to have proposed a possibility and have it rejected than not proposed it and risk inadvertently not proposing an actually good idea, non-QM proposed write-ins are what allowed us to free Vlag via Waystone clogging and allowed the Karag Dum expedition to continue by Mockery of Deathing cows after the Urmskaladrak was lost. Yes proposing too many off-the-wall ideas will simply tire the QM and be counterproductive but not proposing them risks losing out on good ideas that Boney hasn't thought of, and I feel this idea isn't unreasonably implausible. If it's something that Mathilde believes to be infeasible then I'll readily accept that answer but I feel I should at least raise the question of its viability just in case it is a good idea.

 

[DragonParadox]

As long as the layers of smelted Waystone Gold used is thin enough conductivity shouldn't be a problem, in the same way the small layers of gold we use in real life on the surface of electrical contacts for corrosion resistance don't pose a problem because while they're not as electrically conductive as copper the amount of gold the electricity has to travel through is small enough that the increase in resistance is negligible. You're right though, whether or not cannibalizing existing Waystones for Waystone Gold is worth the cost, including the disruption caused to preexisting Golden Age Waystone leylines, is something Mathilde would have to evaluate and decide whether it's worth it. It's ultimately an option I'm proposing, I'm not demanding that it be implemented and if it turns out to not be feasible then oh well, better to have proposed a possibility and have it rejected than not proposed it and risk inadvertently not proposing an actually good idea, non-QM proposed write-ins are what allowed us to free Vlag via Waystone clogging and allowed the Karag Dum expedition to continue by Mockery of Deathing cows after the Urmskaladrak was lost. Yes proposing too many off-the-wall ideas will simply tire the QM and be counterproductive but not proposing them risks losing out on good ideas that Boney hasn't thought of, and I feel this idea isn't unreasonably implausible. If it's something that Mathilde believes to be infeasible then I'll readily accept that answer but I feel I should at least raise the question of its viability just in case it is a good idea.

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Oh sure, it makes sense as a proposal, I was just presenting the reasons why I did not think it it likely to work, just passing time waiting for the update to drop.

 

[NexusEye]

Oh sure, it makes sense as a proposal, I was just presenting the reasons why I did not think it it likely to work, just passing time waiting for the update to drop.

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Fair enough, sensible discussion about the pros and cons of potentially reasonable ideas makes a nice change of pace from the usual thread madness. Although I wonder if thread madness has progressed far enough to temporarily loop back into something resembling sanity but will manifest in an even madder form when the next gap between updates comes. In which case hide in your basements and turn all electronic devices to airplane mode for a week because none will survive direct exposure to the next strain of thread madness that will soon come. Ranald help us all.

 

[Alratan]

We gave up on Divine fingerprinting. If there's a chance pouring AV on a (dead) god directly would produce a Divine fingerprint like pouring it on one of their artifacts would Mathilde has an implicit obligation to not take any part in it.

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I can't find the quote, but I think we gave up the chance of Divine fingerprinting Ranald and his family as well as gods who could be them.

I think we may still be able to fingerprint unrelated gods if we can get access to their divine relics, which is a significant barrier.

 

[picklepikkl]

I can't find the quote, but I think we gave up the chance of Divine fingerprinting Ranald and his family as well as gods who could be them.

I think we may still be able to fingerprint unrelated gods if we can get access to their divine relics, which is a significant barrier.

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Nope:

He didn't explicitly say 'cut it out', but he did reward Mathilde sacrificing a way to know more about the Gods on her terms with learning more about the Gods on His terms. That does amount to the fingerprinting project being off the table.

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Quick search for fingerprint turned this up.

 

[NexusEye]

I can't find the quote, but I think we gave up the chance of Divine fingerprinting Ranald and his family as well as gods who could be them.

I think we may still be able to fingerprint unrelated gods if we can get access to their divine relics, which is a significant barrier.

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Per Boney,

What I'm getting at is that I didn't see anything about Ranald telling us to stop fingerprinting other gods or doing whatever else with those other finger prints.

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He didn't explicitly say 'cut it out', but he did reward Mathilde sacrificing a way to know more about the Gods on her terms with learning more about the Gods on His terms. That does amount to the fingerprinting project being off the table.

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We sacrificed getting any form of divine fingerprints without Ranald's express permission, even if we get Divine artifacts from other gods we can't fingerprint them without Ranald's permission unless we violate our precommitment to not fingerprint gods without permission. If Ranald gives us permission to fingerprint Vylmar to prove or disprove he is or is not an aspect of Slaanesh, fine. But without his direct explicit permission Divine fingerprinting is off the table, even if it's the fingerprinting of enemy gods like Gork or Mork or Hashut or any of the Chaos gods, that's what we gave up and Mathilde won't engage in without an explicit decision to betray the decision and promise her past self made to her oldest and closest friend.

 

[pucflek]

I mean its not so much permission i think and more just understanding. Mathilde sacrificed something of value and got something else back. If she could just recover the sacrifice then thats kinda shit sacrifice. It loses its value, and its a breach of trust of someone that is, in a way, her friend. The relationship is not equal of course, but thats what happens when you make friends with gods.

 

[Alratan]

Per Boney,

We sacrificed getting any form of divine fingerprints without Ranald's express permission, even if we get Divine artifacts from other gods we can't fingerprint them without Ranald's permission unless we violate our precommitment to not fingerprint gods without permission. If Ranald gives us permission to fingerprint Vylmar to prove or disprove he is or is not an aspect of Slaanesh, fine. But without his direct explicit permission Divine fingerprinting is off the table, even if it's the fingerprinting of enemy gods like Gork or Mork or Hashut or any of the Chaos gods, that's what we gave up and Mathilde won't engage in without an explicit decision to betray the decision and promise her past self made to her oldest and closest friend.

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To be fair, that's probably what Ranald would do, given he's the patron god of lying.

But yes, seems I misremembered.

Interesting that Boney said what we traded knowledge of gods on Mathilde's terms for knowledge of gods on Ranald's terms. I wonder if there's anything else that will come out of that deal in terms of Ranald giving hints to her about the gods.

 

[pucflek]

To be fair, that's probably what Ranald would do, given he's the patron god of lying.

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Would he? Has Ranald ever lied to Mathilde?

Interesting that Boney said what we traded knowledge of gods on Mathilde's terms for knowledge of gods on Ranald's terms. I wonder if there's anything else that will come out of that deal in terms of Ranald giving hints to her about the gods.

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He gave her a knowledge of divine relationships that noone (or very few) seems to have and upgraded her divine bling. What more do you want?

 

[NexusEye]

To be fair, that's probably what Ranald would do, given he's the patron god of lying.

But yes, seems I misremembered.

Interesting that Boney said what we traded knowledge of gods on Mathilde's terms for knowledge of gods on Ranald's terms. I wonder if there's anything else that will come out of that deal in terms of Ranald giving hints to her about the gods.

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Unless we spent several AP diving deep into the gods' secrets we likely wouldn't have learned about Ranald's daughters and getting close enough to discover them would likely have alienated Ranald in the process, we might have ultimately learned more about gods had we chosen Truth but I believe we obtained more useful knowledge of gods in the short term by choosing Faith, with sufficient AP investment the knowledge of gods obtained by choosing Truth may have exceeded that by choosing Faith but I believe that it would have required diverting an excessive amount of AP from other worthwhile options and been unlikely to have been chosen by the voter base due to that large AP investment requirement with an uncertain payoff.

 

[Valmond]

To be fair, that's probably what Ranald would do, given he's the patron god of lying.

But yes, seems I misremembered.

Interesting that Boney said what we traded knowledge of gods on Mathilde's terms for knowledge of gods on Ranald's terms. I wonder if there's anything else that will come out of that deal in terms of Ranald giving hints to her about the gods.

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There may be no honor among thieves.
But there is honor, of sorts, among Ranaldites.
Screwing over your crew, and Ranald very explicitly is part of our crew, or we theirs, so while a degree of manipulation is to be expected, there are also limits.
And trying to walk back a deal, which us dropping the fingerprinting absolutely was, seems like going past those limits.

 

[reignonyrparade]

If nothing else, devout ranaldite Mathilde Webber interpreted it as fingerprinting being off the table. It is off the table to devout ranaldite Mathilde Webber for as long as she remains a devout ranaldite.

Edit: Or, as noted, if Ranald sends any sign he's changed his mind or is making an exception, but I do not expect that to happen

 

[pucflek]

But there is honor, of sorts, among Ranaldites.

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Its not even that.

I don't know, and don't particularily care, what relationships others have with their patron gods of choice, but Ranald stuck out his neck twice for us, and sure, there were things to be gained there, but both could've gone very badly for him. As a matter of fact, the worst thing he has ever done is give Mathilde hug in one of her darkest hours because of whatever in-universe reason ended up as a justification for rolling too low on the dice for not his idiom on healing Abelhelm. That was the only time he did not pull our ass out of fire and back us to the hilt, and he still found it in him to at least offer a measure of comfort.

It kinda feels bad trying to lessen a relationship with a god that is this ride or die with you. Whatever Mathilde put into that relationship, Ranald gave at least as much back, and that's imho pretty rare thing, and so the idea that he would try to pull a fast one over someone he has that kind of relationship with is weird. He pulls pranks on her, sure, but thats the worst that Mathilde ever saw of his more capricious side.

 

[Mopman43]

Another way to think of it is as the Nagash Extended Universe, with at least eleven canonical books or scrolls directly descended from the original insight of Nagash and filtered through the understandings of various historical figures.

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It isn't really the direction that canon ended up going with, but I think it'd make perfect sense if there weren't really 'Nine Books of Nagash'.

Sure, at one point when he was still in Nehekhara Nagash wrote everything down in nine distinct volumes. (Though, Ancient Egypt, so would they not have really been the Nine Scrolls of Nagash?)

But then he was kicked out and his works largely destroyed, and W'soran and Neferata wrote down their own versions based on the fragments they had and what else they learned of Necromancy, and those were largely destroyed when Lahmia fell, and when Nagash was killed by Alcadizzar the Skaven destroyed everything they could find and Kadon wrote his own versions based on the whispers of the Crown of Sorcery (this bit was explicitly stated in at least the old 4th edition Undead book), and maybe Van Hel's Liber Mortis really is one of the Nime Books of Nagash, because there aren't really Nine distinct books and it's got basically as much claim as any other book that a Necromancer wrote based on whatever fragments they could get a hold of and their own understanding.

(And of course, there's a million different Liber Mortises as well)

 

[vsh]

So it's more like nine wikis of nagash.

 

[Boney]

SITUATION: There are eight competing Books of Nagash.

 

[BurnNote]

SITUATION: There are eight competing Books of Nagash.

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Hmm. Sounds like someone should write a book that brings all of them together.

 

[Sparsebeard]

I could see a Carved Rune if you're going for full non-wizard and/or non-Runesmith Waystone, but the Foundation will require a Light Wizard and the Runic Inductor a Runesmith anyway so may as well get a Dwarven Rune. And the Foundation runs into a bit of a political problem with the creation of Dhar.

But mostly I'm of the opinion that we don't really need to make a super cheap version of the Waystone. In terms of material cost the current one is pretty low already, and its not like the Network is only a few years from falling apart so we don't need it particularly fast. Make a leyline-only one with maybe a few tweaks that we can put in most places and that can be the standard one, while the current one if for the real nasty places.

So it could be:
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis- replaces High Mages with 8 different Wind enchanters, to ease up on that supply some
[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven- the best
[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered- difficulty and requirements will go down in time
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord- only Wind based and the Lights seem to have understood this way better than the Grey Lords thought they would
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

No High Magic required:
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
[ ] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

Or if you if want it to simply be Wind based so that the Empire could make it on their own:
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
[ ] [RUNE] Wizard
[ ] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Enchanted
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

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The difference on price and difficulty (considering the value of enchantements relative difficulty is exponential, i.e. the value of the time of an enchanter capable of doing simple versus moderate and the time it takes to complete the enchantement) is quite significant between the mass-produced model and your suggestions.

I wouldn't be surprised if your suggested models were from a few to dozens (or even hundreds) of times more expensive than the mass produced version I propose.

Mass-Produced Waytone - Cost (Negligible, negligible, low, low, trivial) - Difficulty (Simple, trivial, trivial, simple, simple)

Only two components cost significant amount of materials and three components requirering the basest of enchanting capabilities (apprentices or journeymen could do it). Probably can be done in a few days once the monolith is in place.

Replacement suggestion - Cost (Low, low, low, low, trivial) - Difficulty (Moderate, simple, very difficult, moderate, simple)

Probably at least twice as expensive in terms of materials (double the number of components with significant costs) and dozens to hundreds of times more expensive in terms of manpower. Requires both competent enchanters and litteral archmages, probably takes months of very exclusive labour for each Waystone.

No High Magic suggestion - Cost (Low, low, high, low, trivial) - Difficulty (Moderate, simple, trivial, moderate, simple)

Material cost probably dozens or hundreds of time more expensive than the Mass-Produced model (depending on how exponential the increase of cost is between trivial, low, moderate and high). Still requires MUCH more magical manpower and hours. Requires more competent (thus many times more precious) and/or numerous enchanters.

Wind Based Only suggestion - Cost (Low, low, low, low, trivial) - Difficulty (Moderate, simple, simple, moderate, simple)

Probably at least twice as expensive in terms of materials (double the number of components with significant costs). Similar as previous in terms of magical manpower needed.

---

Considering the relative costs of the Mass-Produced version versus other options, the question then becomes is it worth it?

We already have a high quality waystone for sensible/important/highly corrupted areas. I'd say if we develop a low cost waystone, let's make it as cheap as possible!

A Waystone that's 5 times as cheap (and much, much, much faster to build) means at least 5 times more coverage and I think 5 times is relatively conservative. I wouldn't be surprised if deployment of a mass-produced version ended up being tens of times faster than our current version and many times faster than any compromise.

 

[MrHobbit]

The difference on price and difficulty (considering the value of enchantements relative difficulty is exponential, i.e. the value of the time of an enchanter capable of doing simple versus moderate and the time it takes to complete the enchantement) is quite significant between the mass-produced model and your suggestions.

I wouldn't be surprised if your suggested models were from a few to dozens (or even hundreds) of times more expensive than the mass produced version I propose.

Mass-Produced Waytone - Cost (Negligible, negligible, low, low, trivial) - Difficulty (Simple, trivial, trivial, simple, simple)

Only two components cost significant amount of materials and three components requirering the basest of enchanting capabilities (apprentices or journeymen could do it). Probably can be done in a few days once the monolith is in place.

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This sounds boring as hell. Why should we bother spending an AP to make this thing? I also dislike the name; it's dishonest. All of the waystones we can build can be mass-produced. Being able to be mass-produced was one of the qualifiers to being included in the parts list. Implying that other waystones can't be mass produced is just a false premise.

Like, why the hell would we want to dot the continent with a waystone that doesn't get the Dwarf rune? That's easy as hell to include. It's a hell of decrease in both coolness and effective for what appears to me only a marginal decrease in cost. Sure, we can build more of them, but why would we want to build something like this? We can just build good waystones for only a marginal increase in price.

And we're going to want to deploy a waystone to Laurelorn so they don't get snippy about being left out! Do we really want this to be the thing we leave to them? I don't. I definitely don't want it to be the legacy of the project the world. The world isn't going to fall apart if we aren't capable of deploying all the waystones today.

I am also skeptical of the idea that the deployment will take, at minimum, five times less time. And framing the cost savings to be so massive when we're only really talking about "low" vs "trivial" just is not convincing.

 

[redpotato4]

It definitely looks like the thread has at least one or two more turns of Waystone project in it which I am glad to see since the stone we have right now is very specialized, it is absolutely great if what you want to do is drive a stake into the heart of evil, less so if you want to just provide more coverage for an overall improvement in quality of life.

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It would be insane to end the Waystone Project before we:

A: Map Bretonnia and Estalia, where all the energies lead out of to Ulthuan, and while Los Cabos and L'Anguille nexus are presumably fine, finding out any other problems in the chain is pretty important too.

B: Study the Kislev and Laurelorn Networks. We already studied the Karaz Ankor and got the option to possibly re-activate the Barack Varr nexus, so it's only fair to do so for the other participants. Especially Kislev if we can help their network.

C: Forest of Shadows (and probably Mordheim) nexuses. It would be very bad to leave multiple nexuses in the hand of the enemy without even taking a look at them. Maybe we can't do anything right now, but better have an idea of it at least.

Other things would be good too like mapping Tilea and asking Ulthuan to help Barak Varr's nexus.

I'd say if we develop a low cost waystone, let's make it as cheap as possible!

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If we were in the middle of the Great Catastrophe, sure speed would be king. But we're not. This is a vital infrastructure project and there's no point in making them less effective if we're not being forced to by a time crunch. The main bottleneck is the storage which is getting easier as time goes on. And we know that the Black Water (a big lake) will have 40 way stones around the shore ready in 4 years, even with the other projects in Sylvania and Praag and the storage not optimized. That seems fast enough to me. We don't need to have the entire network finished or anything before we leave the project.