Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Do we have any examples of make characters in the setting who are motivated by personal vanity, or is that an exclusively female thing? I agree with you in abstract but there's a reason it's a sexist trope, not just a trope.

That is not something I disagreed with, although my phrasing may have been bad. What I meant is, I do not think that wanting to be immortal and not wanting to look like a desiccated corpse while being one are signs of vanity, but rather, stuff moat humans would seek.

... But I do have to agree that male necromancers are strangely ok with it.
 
Liber Mortis is the extract of Nine Books.
It is? I thought it is whatever Vanhel learned from Vlad, who taught him what he thought useful and interesting, including some but not all of the "wisdoms" of Nagash (which Vlad might have learned by getting ahold of his books but might also have learned orally) plus whatever innovations Vlad discovered on his own or learned from others across the many centuries. And that's just a part of the book. It also includes all kinds of events and perspectives coming directly from Vanhel himself. Like how to best use undead forces against Skaven.
but again, canon straight up uses "Liber Mortis" to refer to one of the original actually-written-by-Nagash-in-High-Nehekharan Books of Nagash
Which canon? Quest canon? Or canon from the primary sources of official canon for the Quest? Or some other, older or newer sources?

My understanding was that across the history of WHF the various authors were anything but consistent regarding the Liber Mortis and its providence, while we were talking in the context of this Quest.

I've looked for the pertinent quote,
Ah. Turns out it might have been my mistake. I forgot the part of the passage that mentioned working through a trapped book. Still, even if Vanhel primarily learned from one of the Books of Nagash, I would not consider his own book a copy of that, any more than an analysis of an old philosophy book is an edited copy of said book. Especially when it comes with an attached diary taking up a large part of it.
 
I do quite like the idea but wanted to point out that at this point the book would be premature at best.

If it was full cooperation and no bad blood between these polities, it would still be a tall order. We are dealing with quite literal holy secrets to some of these people. Every person able to poke at a waystone could try to steal from the Widow. Dawi standard procedure for unauthorized rune making is hunt you down no matter the cost, torture you until you reveal who taught you and then hunt them down too.

Then add onto it the really bad blood, we have Asur, Eonir, Dawi, the Empire, and Kislev sitting at a table. Every single one had killed thousands of the other, and now they have to make nice.

Right now we are sending a message what cooperation gets you, and it's well framed to be exactly what they wanted out of the deal.
  1. 1. Kislev is pushing back the Za, Tzar Boris said we know it is coming, this is Kislev of course we know. So we fight the Za, we keep it at bay and cleanse the land.
  2. The Empire is getting more room, easing the fear of magic and allowing a safe(ish) population migration. Sylvania will have a population of people not used to vampire rule and soldiers/militia to draw from.
  3. The Eonir get better relations with their neighbors and don't have to go it alone, what's more they get to solve a lot of internal issues from contacts made from the project.
  4. The Karaz Ankor knows what at stake, they will do their duty, for clan, for hold, for the Karaz Ankor we shall reclaim and rebuild.
Right now we are in this weird moment right between moments. We just changed a lot for a lot of people, but the effects of those changes won't be seen or felt for years. It is most definitely not a rest on your laurels moment but more of the lets show how good this is. People are still incredibly leery about magic and we would need to work on that well before we could go any level of public without a nudge from the person who would burn you at the stake if you did it without their permission.

So I think any kind of publication without at the very least waiting for some hard results and permission from Dagormas and the Emperor is premature.

Which this actually gives me an idea for a spell so @Boney would something like this be possible to invent?
A liminal realm presses down on reality and we've seen Drycha travel through them. Instead of traveling through the realm and reappear elsewhere (like smoke and mirrors) Instead the realm just kind of... moves with us? We could call it the Suspense and everyone with a hint of magic would feel it until we left....
 
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Of course, but what I mean is, is there a reason to not donate 8 gallons of AV so that the College may make 8 new Orbs, presumably in exchange of something? We've given a lot of AV to the Runesmiths over the years. Why not a fraction of that to the Colleges?
Limited income is the problem. For most of the quest there's been a deep stockpile of AV because Mathilde didn't actually do anything but collect it for most of a decade. Now, nearly half that stockpile has been spent in one shot on the first set of Orbs. A second set would drain it almost dry, right at the point when we go public and other wizards are going to start asking for access to it.

With most research activities Mathilde has done eating a gallon per action, we'd very quickly approach the point where we're limited by gallons instead of actions, right when we could otherwise free up AP by finally involving WEB-MAT or partnering with trustworthy College associates. Until there's a way to actually get more AV/year, better to shepherd what we still have and focus on that goal.
 
Which canon? Quest canon? Or canon from the primary sources of official canon for the Quest? Or some other, older or newer sources?

My understanding was that across the history of WHF the various authors were anything but consistent regarding the Liber Mortis and its providence, while we were talking in the context of this Quest.
Canon from the primary sources: The 8th edition Tomb Kings book refers to Arkhan's book of Nagash as the Liber Mortis.

And I'm not talking about consistency, I'm talking about colloquialism here. The thread does in fact occasionally say that 'the Liber Mortis' is one of the Nine Books of Nagash and they're not wrong because canon does stuff like this. Hence me saying 'the book we have isn't the original'. I feel like I've been pretty clear about this.
 
The thread does in fact occasionally say that 'the Liber Mortis' is one of the Nine Books of Nagash and they're not wrong because canon does stuff like this. Hence me saying 'the book we have isn't the original'. I feel like I've been pretty clear about this.
I either didn't know that or didn't know that anymore. Slowly stuff makes more sense. Maybe Vanhel really did read Nagash's Liber Mortis and write everything he learned from it into his diary (with annotations by Vlad), which then also became known as the Liber Mortis because most readers didn't care all that much about those parts. It would also be an elegant way to thread the needle though those canon inconsistencies.

...Yeah, I may have known this once before forgetting it. Not sure though.
 
Which this actually gives me an idea for a spell so @Boney would something like this be possible to invent?
A liminal realm presses down on reality and we've seen Drycha travel through them. Instead of traveling through the realm and reappear elsewhere (like smoke and mirrors) Instead the realm just kind of... moves with us? We could call it the Suspense and everyone with a hint of magic would feel it until we left....
Moving liminal realms is both a difficult-to-implement idea and a bad idea, the best guess we have as to how to accomplish this was to tie it to our soul like an Apparition and this is what Boney had to say about that,
Trying to create a liminal realm in your soul is like trying to build a basement in your car. There's a lot of reasons that shouldn't work right off the bat, and even if you manage to overcome them it's going to do really bad things to both the car and the road the second you try to go anywhere.
We could try tying it to something else but the problems are the same, moving a liminal realm is difficult and even if you could it would cause damage to reality as it moves, liminal realms are ideal at being stationary locations, they're not good at being in any way mobile.
 
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(in actuality it's referring to metal from Karak Azul)
Or there's a particular metal called Azul-metal, because Azul means dependable. In the same way, Varn's water isn't necessarily water from Karak Varn, it's water from a mountain lake.

It is sourcing pg 85 of Liber Necris, so if anyone is at liberty of checking? But it seems to me that Nagash's art and insights are big part of it :V It just also details the actual dangers of necromancy in plain text and includes some rather good military notes.
"Vladimir revealed that he had brought these artefacts to van Hal, though he gave no reason as to why he would be so generous. In fact they were the Nine Books of Nagash." - Liber Necris pg 85.
 
Moving liminal realms is both a difficult-to-implement idea and a bad idea, the best guess we have as to how to accomplish this was to tie it to our soul like an Apparition and this is what Boney had to say about that,

We could try tying it to something else but the problems are the same, moving a liminal realm is difficult and even if you could it would cause damage to reality as it moves, liminal realms are ideal at being stationary locations, they're not good at being in any way mobile.
Fair point, honestly I just really liked the image of Mathilde singing the theme song.
 
My understanding was that across the history of WHF the various authors were anything but consistent regarding the Liber Mortis and its providence, while we were talking in the context of this Quest.
Doesn't help that 'Liber Mortis' is a very unimaginative title. Translated it is quite literally 'Book of Death'.
I would imagine that many, many necromancers have named their own personal tome The Liber Mortis without bothering to research whether anyone else had used the title before.
 
Couldn't we have Johann and Max use their WEB-MAT AP to learn enchanting? I don't think either of them have noted being bad at it so much as not having prioritized it.

Actually, didn't Max study enchanting as part of his ambition to achieve true transmutation? Like enchanting tools to make better tools and so on?
No, Max isn't an enchanter; you're thinking of the Gold spell called, confusingly, Enchant Item.

And yeah, we could spend WEB-MAT AP on them learning enchanting, but 1) given that it is, at minimum, 1 WEB-MAT AP per "tier" of enchanting progress, this will take a while if we want higher tiers of Gold spells 2) if we're spending WEB-MAT AP on them learning enchanting in order to save AP down the line by enchanting with them, you will note that this does not actually save us any AP until we've enchanted three times with them for every AP spent learning compared to just hiring someone (at which point we will have spent 2 and 2/3 AP compared to 3) 3) I can't recall much in the way of Gold magic people actually want to combo with Ulgu other than things like Law of Logic which are incompatible with being an Ulgu-suffused person, it just doesn't really seem worth it.
 
With a little time, a lot of mathematics, no small amount of expensive materials, a few beams of wood imported from Araby, and a failed power stone that only attracts instead of emitting Ulgu, your tower takes shape.
Here, the pillar is flanked by a pair of wooden beams, imported from Araby and carefully coated in lacquer. Wood attuned to Ulgu is rare, but in the deserts of Araby some plants blossom only in the hours closest to dawn and dusk, hiding from the heat of noon, and this made the wood perfect as a transfer medium from your Ulgu-rich Room of Dawn and Dusk to the Eye of Gazul.
I can kind of imagine Boney thinking to himself "I wish I could give lore on this Araby wood right now, but it doesn't fit in the text's flow", and then seeing an opportunity a month later and taking it.

Also, I'm wondering if the spider silk may have similar properties since the spiders live underground, where there's little light. "I assure you bursar, this silk underwear is for magical purposes."
 
Doesn't help that 'Liber Mortis' is a very unimaginative title. Translated it is quite literally 'Book of Death'.
I would imagine that many, many necromancers have named their own personal tome The Liber Mortis without bothering to research whether anyone else had used the title before.
I mean what is arguably the single most important piece of text in history, the Bible, literally just means "the Book". You might prepend the word "holy" to it so the Holy Bible would mean "the Holy Book" which is slightly more descriptive but I don't think us IRL humans can criticize Warhammer humanity for the imaginativeness of their naming of books without throwing stones in a glass house. We can absolutely criticize the writers at GW though, they're fair game although given how much, admittedly mostly deserved, flak they already get due to their substellar writing it feels like punching down at this point.
 
(Though, while we're at it, how do the cultists and necromancers sabotage the Waystones? Are the Anoqeyan command phrases for disconnection from the network that poorly-kept a secret? If it turns out they're fucking with the storage, I guess this plan goes from good to pointless.)
I had to go all the way back to turn 26 to find this, but luckily that wasn't too hard thanks to a quick search through @picklepikkl's excellent A Brief History of Our Time as Loremaster infopost. ;)
Of the forty or so Wizards attending the first lecture on Waystones, only five are above the rank of Apprentice: yourself, a Bright Magister who won't stop drumming their fingers on their desk, and three Journeymen who must be preparing for their final examinations. Of the Apprentices, Jades and Ambers are the most common, followed by the Amethysts, and only a single Celestial is present. Up at the board, the Gold Perpetual delivering the lecture begins by writing in letters taking up the entire chalkboard: DON'T.

"If there is any option available to you that does not involve messing with a Waystone," she intones in a Talabeclander accent, "take that option, for the good of yourself and everyone in the area."

The lectures you attend over the coming weeks hammer that point repeatedly, and involve a great many accounts of times this advice was not taken, and the terrible fates that befell everyone unfortunate enough to be in the general area. They also grudgingly give instructions on how to recognize when leaving the Waystone be is not an option, and how to resolve them using rote phrases of Anoqeyån. How to resolve a blockage between two Waystones, how to reconnect a Waystone that has been severed from the Leyline, how to vent an over-accumulation of energies in a Henge. All well and good, and suitable information for Apprentices who will soon be unleashed upon the world and told not to mess with the big magic rocks, but your need is greater and you're unable to get past the deliberate obfuscation built into the lecture. After being rebuffed at office hours, you have a quiet word to Algard, who apparently has already received a note warning him you might be Up To Something on the subject; he pens a reply that says that you are Up To Something with approval from the highest levels, and all assistance is to be rendered. After that, you receive a slightly less frosty reception from the Perpetual Professor, though she does increase how graphic the tales are of times things all went wrong.

[Learning about Waystones: Learning, Breakpoints 50/80: 10+27+10(Windsage)+4(Library: Waystones)=51.]
[Office Hours: 73+27+4(Library: Waystones)=104.]
[Magical Skill added: Waystones and Henges.]

Between the now more helpful Office Hours and a set of one-woman field trips to the Henge of the Jade College and the Waystones of the Amber Hills, you manage to grasp the very basics of what Waystones are. The world is criss-crossed with natural channels along which magic flows, and the Waystones act as embankments to contain and deepen those channels. Where multiple Leylines meet, Henges are built to direct the magic towards its ultimate destination - supposedly, but perhaps not necessarily, the Great Vortex of Ulthuan. With your higher clearance, you're also told in private the incantations for tapping into a portion of the power flowing through Waystones, which comes with even more dire warnings as to how terribly that can go wrong. Also passed along is the amount of raw explosive power necessary to destroy a Waystone or Henge, which has been unfortunately necessary from time to time when a blockage has curdled into Dhar somewhere the Empire is unable to hold for long enough to restore the proper flow. Better a one-time Dhar explosion than a permanent and self-restoring font of Dark Magic for the many enemies of the Empire.
The colleges may not teach a phrase that specifically disconnects a Waystone from the network, but they do teach similar ones to apprentices. Presumably, this is where Mathilde learned how to do tech support on Karak Vlag's local network. If that's something apprentices are permitted to know, it can't be too uncommon knowledge outside the colleges. Also of note, the incantations to tap into a Waystone's power are kept at a significantly higher clearance level that required Algard's approval, so I would reason that knowledge is far more rare.

P.S. Do the command phrases work with our new waystone design? If they really are code phrases to communicate with Caledor, then I would guess they could. But I don't think we would've had the chance to test that until now. (And even so, poking Caledor unnecessarily is a Very Bad Idea.)
 
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P.S. Do the command phrases work with our new waystone design? If they really are code phrases to communicate with Caledor, then I would guess they could. But I don't think we would've had the chance to test that until now. (And even so, poking Caledor unnecessarily is a Very Bad Idea.)
It can't be entirely code phrases talking to a central controlling intelligence, when we were testing three waystones in a line, they didn't have a designation in the update so lets call them A, B, and C where the configuration was A<—B<—C, when we deactivated Waystone A it also caused Waystone B to stop sending energy downstream (A B<—C where italicization indicates deactivation) and when we deactivated Waystone B it didn't stop the stream of energy from Waystone C coming in because there was no way to communicate it without being connected to Caledor(A B<—C) but when we used a signal rocket to tell Johann to deactivate Waystone C the stream from C stopped(A B C), meaning that despite being cut off from Caledor it could still receive and obey commands, it just wasn't capable of passing along commands to other Waystones. That seems to indicate Waystone commands are either actual spells that interact with the mechanisms inside the Waystone to manipulate them into doing certain things or that Waystones come with "programming" and Waystone commands interact with an interface which receives and interprets those commands and it manipulates the Waystone mechanisms to make whatever act is being commanded happen. If its direct manipulation of the inner workings of the Waystone our new Waystones might be able to respond to the commands if they're similar enough to Golden Age ones, if it relies on a programmed interface unless Caledor programs each Waystone that gets linked to his network for us it won't work unless the programming is inherent in the Golden Age storage mechanism which we reverse-engineered and is a functional clone of the Golden Age version, the reason it's so complex might be because in addition to storing the magic it contains the programming for executing Waystone commands. If that is the case we might want to make sure that in the process of gaining more experience making it and simplifying it to make its construction easier as we build more Waystones our enchanters don't accidentally delete the programming of the Waystone as unnecessary junk that isn't needed for the job of storing magic.
 
As soon as the word 'Portentiv' arises, any further discussion of what to name the Wind-sensitive Portativ becomes pointless. You finalize the schematics
The ability to detect dark magic is extremely useful, and the durability ensures that they're going to actually propagate well beyond the availability of windsight-users over time.
And in that time will probably detect a lot of dark rituals. Putting one on a cart and patrol it through town playing for the people and looking for Dark rituals will probably expose some cults.

But could it detect Waaaghs? Possibly by using bits of Orc or Goblin-bone components to detect the little waaagh and big waaagh?
Because in tiny villages that would be an amazingly useful use, with the primary threats to those being beastmen or greenskins, and greenskins being constantly linked to a magical field that signals when they're going to attack.
 
The ability to detect dark magic is extremely useful, and the durability ensures that they're going to actually propagate well beyond the availability of windsight-users over time.
And in that time will probably detect a lot of dark rituals. Putting one on a cart and patrol it through town playing for the people and looking for Dark rituals will probably expose some cults.

But could it detect Waaaghs? Possibly by using bits of Orc or Goblin-bone components to detect the little waaagh and big waaagh?
Because in tiny villages that would be an amazingly useful use, with the primary threats to those being beastmen or greenskins, and greenskins being constantly linked to a magical field that signals when they're going to attack.
I don't think it can detect Waaaghs, it was designed to be Wind-sensitive and Dhar-sensitive, not any-other-type-of-magic-sensitive. Waaagh is probably one of the few other magic types you could make a Portentiv sensitive to by incorporating as you mentioned Orc/Goblin bones. You might be able to create an Ice Magic sensitive Portentiv by incorporating an ice based material into but that would mean you would constantly have to keep it cooled below freezing or use magic to keep it frozen at higher temperatures so the important part doesn't melt. For disciplines like Hedge magic I can't think of a way of modifying a Portentiv to be sensitive to that, Elementalism might be detectable by incorporating parts with sympathetic resonance to the four elements, and Divine magic might be detectable by incorporating something made of something holy to or blessed by a particular god though there are likely plenty of priests who would object to trying to measure their god let alone incorporating something sacred to them in the tool used in the process. High Magic might be detectable too, either by incorporating a ninth pipe with a languid sensitive to Qhaysh although that would require a High Magic user to assist in identifying an appropriate substance, alternatively it might turn out that our current Portentiv's are already sensitive and High Magic would alter their tone similar to how Dhar turns them from major to minor key. What would be the opposite of turning a major key into a minor key anyway, raising the major key note by the equal but opposite amount needed to turn it into minor key maybe? I'm not sure what the term for such a note is, I haven't studied musical notation for so long I've forgotten how long many years it's been.
 
I remember that years ago we were told that Arcane Marks slow aging more and more as one accumulates them, but that true agelessness takes a bit more than that. Lately though, everyone, including the QM, act like Mathilde has acquired enough Arcane Marks to be functionally ageless. Did I misunderstand something in the past or present, or did something change in the interim OOC?

What changed is that people started freaking out about the encroaching spectre of inevitable death when she's barely out of her thirties, and that pared the nuance off my response to the topic. It might be something Mathilde has to worry about some day, but not right now.

I think you two may have misunderstood my post. I am in fact saying that the Liber Mortis isn't one of the original Books of Nagash, as can be plainly visible from it having been written in Reikspiel and being trapless.

However, colloquially, we and IIRC sometimes canon do refer to one of the books of Nagash as the Liber Mortis, probably out of convenience. I am not trying to say that Vanhel's is in any way an original.

Some parts of canon have referred to both the Liber Mortis and the Liber Necris (Mannfred's manifesto) as being part of the Nine Books of Nagash. Maybe the names are generic enough, and the Von Carsteins arrogant enough, that the same title got applied to two different books, but even then there's three of the Nine that have no stated names.

Another way to think of it is as the Nagash Extended Universe, with at least eleven canonical books or scrolls directly descended from the original insight of Nagash and filtered through the understandings of various historical figures.

Which this actually gives me an idea for a spell so @Boney would something like this be possible to invent?
A liminal realm presses down on reality and we've seen Drycha travel through them. Instead of traveling through the realm and reappear elsewhere (like smoke and mirrors) Instead the realm just kind of... moves with us? We could call it the Suspense and everyone with a hint of magic would feel it until we left....


Liminal realms are basically a basement in reality, liminal pathways are tunnels. They are built into and out of the barrier between reality and the aethyr. If you start pulling on one hard enough to get it to start moving and by some miracle it remains intact, you're still going to do a horrendous amount of damage to the ground in your wake.

The ability to detect dark magic is extremely useful, and the durability ensures that they're going to actually propagate well beyond the availability of windsight-users over time.
And in that time will probably detect a lot of dark rituals. Putting one on a cart and patrol it through town playing for the people and looking for Dark rituals will probably expose some cults.

But could it detect Waaaghs? Possibly by using bits of Orc or Goblin-bone components to detect the little waaagh and big waaagh?
Because in tiny villages that would be an amazingly useful use, with the primary threats to those being beastmen or greenskins, and greenskins being constantly linked to a magical field that signals when they're going to attack.

The idea is to do one thing well and affordably so that everyone that can use it can get access to it. I understand the impulse to append on every other idea that seems like it might be useful, but it defeats the original purpose by making it too expensive to propagate.
 
But could it detect Waaaghs? Possibly by using bits of Orc or Goblin-bone components to detect the little waaagh and big waaagh?
Because in tiny villages that would be an amazingly useful use, with the primary threats to those being beastmen or greenskins, and greenskins being constantly linked to a magical field that signals when they're going to attack.
I've asked Boney about this before and the answer was no, because Waaagh energies are not ambient or affected by the Winds. Because of this, and because Waaagh energies are present around lots of greenskins and particularly greenskin shamans (which are rare), the Colleges haven't exactly gotten around to figuring out which physical materials (if any) resonate with Waaagh energies.

Also, Greenskins may sometimes be cunning but they're not exactly subtle. Any sufficiently large amounts of Waaagh are probably less noticeable than the Greenskin forces that accompany them. As such, Waaagh-scopes are not likely to take off like Seviroscopes might one day.
 
Voting closed, writing has begun.

Adhoc vote count started by Boney on Jan 4, 2025 at 12:50 AM, finished with 1728 posts and 202 votes.
 
Some parts of canon have referred to both the Liber Mortis and the Liber Necris (Mannfred's manifesto) as being part of the Nine Books of Nagash. Maybe the names are generic enough, and the Von Carsteins arrogant enough, that the same title got applied to two different books, but even then there's three of the Nine that have no stated names.

Another way to think of it is as the Nagash Extended Universe, with at least eleven canonical books or scrolls directly descended from the original insight of Nagash and filtered through the understandings of various historical figures.
As a theoretical possibility, not something I'm suggesting you make canon unless you really like the idea just how I would probably explain it if I were making a story based off Warhammer lore, could it be a translation thing, The Nine Books Liber Mortis's title was Nehekharan for "Book of Death" and when people started talking about it in Reikspiel they started referring it as the "Liber Mortis" a presumably Classical name that people who had basic familiarity with Classical could understand what the title was conveying but by putting it in an older more prestigious language than normal Reikspiel it gave it emphasis (like how the Principia Mathematica by Alfred North Whitehead and Bertrand Russel gave their work a Latin title despite the text being English to emphasize its perceived importance due to it being their attempt to formalize all of mathematics before Gödel blew a hole under the waterline for that idea) and Fredrick Van Hal gave his book the title of Liber Mortis as a fancy name unaware that others had already given one of the Nine Books that title because he was only familiar with the original Nehekharan title of that book.
 
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