Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I think at this point that if we want to get rid of Disdain for Sigmar, it might have to be by having us explicitly hang out with Sigmarites enough that Mathilde gets to reprocess her dislike for him and finds more worth in him.

If we had the time and will for it, that'd probably mean trying to make inroads with the Witch Hunters by volunteering our expertise. Witch Hunters don't typically like to receive help from wizards, but they might make an exception for this one, given her history.
 
I think that by now it wouldn't come out of nowhere for her to lose the listed mechanical drawbacks of the Trait, but not all of the narrative drawbacks, if that makes any sense. Like, I don't think that if she was suddenly put in charge of a group consisting primarily of Sigmarites for any significant period of time she'd make it a priority to try converting or replacing them, but I do think that she'd struggle a bit to hide her disdain and it'd impact her mood. She's accepted that she'll have to put up with him, but she won't forgive him.
 
If we were to lose the Disdain for Sigmar trait I'd want it to come about narratively. Not even as part of a trait vote - and only partially because it'd never win one - but that the narrative made it the natural result.
 
It's precisely because it's not 'neutralizing an existing trait' anymore. It's a genuine path we could go down with its own merits. Mathilde reconciling with Sigmar doesn't bring us up to 'normal', it reopens a connection between Mathilde and an extremely significant spiritual being. Mathilde already had his favor -- in a world of 'touching a god's power might produce dhar' rulings Mathilde was comboing off of his light like a finishing move in a video game.

He was there. We were the one who left.

If we want 'a scene where Sigmar reaches out' before we're willing to vote for that scene we're probably putting the cart before the horse. I recall a certain Chaos Warrior with a similar desire.

(I guess I'll just sort of wave to the plan writers for ideas about how to get voting for it, though. This'll be a few months.)
 
I think at this point that if we want to get rid of Disdain for Sigmar, it might have to be by having us explicitly hang out with Sigmarites enough that Mathilde gets to reprocess her dislike for him and finds more worth in him.

If we had the time and will for it, that'd probably mean trying to make inroads with the Witch Hunters by volunteering our expertise. Witch Hunters don't typically like to receive help from wizards, but they might make an exception for this one, given her history.
Problem with this sentiment is that there is a section of the thread that would refuse to get into any such situation on account of the trait, so it turns into a chicken and egg thing. Have to interact with Sigmarites to get rid of the trait, but also have to get rid of the trait to interact with Sigmarites.

For my part I'd vote to get rid of it since part of that situation above is that the trait gets brought up as a a negative of getting any jobs in the Empire, such as my cherished dream of Supreme Matriarch, and as such it. must. go.
 
No. He was the one who left. Few updates after.
*scrabbles around in recent Sigmar-posting*
Sigmar's priest was the anchor of plenty of good miracles before that moment, and he failed only after everyone else in the armies continually failed and then failed again. But in order to fail, he definitionally had to try, right? We didn't even question that he would try. Of course he would, and he did. He was there.
 
Sigmarites are generally closed minded and prejudiced on 'screen'. I'm happy to have a trait that's basically 'justify your nonsense' and treats Sigmar like any other god in the empire; regardless of power, evaluated on what the followers do.

It's okay to be antagonistic to people who literally shut doors in your face.
 
*scrabbles around in recent Sigmar-posting*
Kasmir tried and failed, but it was explicitly, in his own words, because Sigmar didn't grant him the power he normally did in that moment. Kasmir himself had a whole theological crisis over it, because he seems perfectly able to heal everyone else but his god withdrew right in the moment he most needed him.

Either Sigmar willfully denied healing to Abelhelm, in which case Mathilde is frankly unlikely to ever forgive Him no matter what 'greater good' it served, or Sigmar was unable to or held back from doing so, in which case it's going to be hard for Mathilde to ever discover such a thing having distanced herself so much from both Sigmarites and Stirland.

Like, maybe Nagash himself was hiding under Drakenhof, maybe it was all part of Tzeentch's century-spanning plan to create Everchosen Weber the Karak-Breaker... but it happened 20 years ago and Mathilde doesn't even like to think about it anymore, let alone go back and re-investigate her life's greatest failure.
 
I think at this point that if we want to get rid of Disdain for Sigmar, it might have to be by having us explicitly hang out with Sigmarites enough that Mathilde gets to reprocess her dislike for him and finds more worth in him.

If we had the time and will for it, that'd probably mean trying to make inroads with the Witch Hunters by volunteering our expertise. Witch Hunters don't typically like to receive help from wizards, but they might make an exception for this one, given her history.
Just hanging out with Sigmarites wouldn't do anything. Mathilde agrees there's plenty of cool Sigmarites. In fact, that's part of the issue! It's not just an asshole god for assholes. It's an unworthy god with worthy followers, and those worthy followers should be encouraged to find a worthy god.

Anything that would mitigate it would require Sigmar to proof himself worthy after all. Doesn't have to be by helping Mathilde, mind, and in fact that would probably be better. But something like the the Mork heist, Khornate fisticuffs (though something appropriately foreign to Sigmar, like, emergency paperwork help), or even the bearican.

Come to think of it, that Ranald is so Ride Or Die with her probably doesn't help. Mathilde has Standards for Proper Gods.
It's precisely because it's not 'neutralizing an existing trait' anymore. It's a genuine path we could go down with its own merits. Mathilde reconciling with Sigmar doesn't bring us up to 'normal', it reopens a connection between Mathilde and an extremely significant spiritual being. Mathilde already had his favor -- in a world of 'touching a god's power might produce dhar' rulings Mathilde was comboing off of his light like a finishing move in a video game.

He was there. We were the one who left.

If we want 'a scene where Sigmar reaches out' before we're willing to vote for that scene we're probably putting the cart before the horse. I recall a certain Chaos Warrior with a similar desire.

(I guess I'll just sort of wave to the plan writers for ideas about how to get voting for it, though. This'll be a few months.)
Thing is, I'm not hardcore on keeping the trait, because it's stopped being relevant for a very long time. It was a really interesting facet of her character, and for the first while I didn't want to lose it.

I'm not saying there's nothing uniquely interesting about Sigmar. I'm saying we're at the buffet, with tons of different foods, some delicious looking but untried, others tested and confirmed great, and you're saying you want to pay the price to special order a new dish. OK, we can do that in principle. But you must explain why you think that particular dish is going to be so great that we need to special order it. And I'm gonna be honest, I haven't seen it.

Like, "River Ambush" has been sitting under the heat lamps for hours, and I keep promising myself I'll eat it next round, but then the cook brings out some new creation of "Silk" and "Orbs" and "Treehouse", and fuck me if that doesn't look stunning, and we're back to full and waiting on the next round, with dread and despair because there's just too much delicious and we finite being cannot take in the totallity of all possible existences.


I also want to point out you're misunderstanding the divine power and winds produce dhar thing. Using them together is not the issue. She has done that since, see the giant hellflame tower. It's channeling it in the same soul. She could get a temporary blessing, like from Ulric and Taal when hunting Alberich, but she's never going to cast those.
Sigmarites are generally closed minded and prejudiced on 'screen'. I'm happy to have a trait that's basically 'justify your nonsense' and treats Sigmar like any other god in the empire; regardless of power, evaluated on what the followers do.

It's okay to be antagonistic to people who literally shut doors in your face.
On the other hand, that's also unfair. Kasimir is awesome, and quite open minded. And we've known and met quite a few cool Sigmarites. In fact, there's been one real asshole Sigmarite we interacted briefly with way, way back when Abelhelm was alive, Roswita's priest was kind of ineffective, and the Grand Theogonist is a politicking bastard. But let's note that the Ar-Ulric is also a right bastard when it benefits him, being willing to wipe out an entire countryside, and the cult is having an internal battle over the supremicism of the main branch.
 
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One thing I do think might be more viable than getting to like Sigmar-the-God would be liking Sigmar-the-mortal. From a certain point of view that'd be the more dwarfy thing to do, too.
 
To be honest I don't think Mathilde needs to get rid of distain for sigmar. Sigmar the God has too much influence on the empire in a lot of ways. And I think it's generally more interesting if she keeps it. Call me cynical, but we don't always need to forgive those who have failed us in the past.

As for being Supreme Matriarch, the colleges are supposed to be an irreligious institution, so I doubt it would impact us much there other than maybe causing us to butt heads some with the grand theoginist, who has also cause us some problems in the past given Kasmir and the person sent to replace him.
 
On the other hand, that's also unfair. Kasimir is awesome, and quite open minded. And we've known and met quite a few cool Sigmarites. In fact, there's been one real asshole Sigmarite we interacted briefly with way, way back when Abelhelm was alive, Roswita's priest was kind of ineffective, and the Grand Theogonist is a politicking bastard. But let's note that the Ar-Ulric is also a right bastard when it benefits him, being willing to wipe out an entire countryside, and the cult is having an internal battle over the supremicism of the main branch.

As Orbmorb noted, Kasmir was initially the opposite of open-minded:
"The religious situation in Stirland could have been very dire. Under the previous administration the Sigmarites pulled back to the major population centers and left the villages and small towns without spiritual guidance. But the Shallyans and the Morrites and even the bloody Ulricans and followers of a dozen other of our Gods stepped up and filled the void before anything else could, and saved a million souls in the process. But that's apparently not enough for the Grand Bloody Theogonist, so he sends me a goddamn zealot that spends all his time on infighting between the Gods of the Empire instead of doing his Godsdamned job."

You stay silent. You could have told him that years ago, but you didn't.

"I tell him to shepherd the souls of a military split five different ways and he just gets Sigmarites - and he doesn't even recruit locally, or send to Altdorf for teachers to begin teaching Stirlandian chaplains, he wants to import then en masse from the Grand Theogonist." He shakes his head in disbelief. "An army without Shallyans! I know I didn't mention them, but I shouldn't have to specify to get Shallyans. And no Morrites, in Stirland! I'm trying to build ties with the Knights of Morr and there's not a single Morrite priest attached to the army!" He looks to you. "You know why he didn't find anything when he winnowed through the servants of the castle? Because he refuses to know anything about how the other cults operate, despite me suggesting in private to him several times that he should. If someone tells him they're a Morrite or a Shallyan he has no way to gainsay them because he only knows the Sigmarite creed."

"What are you going to do," you finally say.

"I... don't know." He scowls. "The Emperor's Spymaster, he knows how the game is played. He sent me a broken pawn, I removed it, he owes me a new one, that's just business as usual. But the Grand Theogonist is unlikely to take it well if I oust Kasmir, even with cause. But I'm thinking: to hell with the Grand Theogonist. If he's stopping me from protecting Stirland, then surely he can't be doing the will of Sigmar." The confidence had fled from his voice at that last point, and he looks troubled. You share in a brooding silence for a time, then he seems to shake himself out of it. "Tell me what you found of the Marshal candidates."

You hesitate. "Well, if you're not liking Kasmir's attitude, I'll recommend heavily against Berthold. Nothing concrete, but his company in Altdorf was made up of Sigmar supremacists."
 
It's precisely because it's not 'neutralizing an existing trait' anymore. It's a genuine path we could go down with its own merits. Mathilde reconciling with Sigmar doesn't bring us up to 'normal', it reopens a connection between Mathilde and an extremely significant spiritual being. Mathilde already had his favor -- in a world of 'touching a god's power might produce dhar' rulings Mathilde was comboing off of his light like a finishing move in a video game.

He was there. We were the one who left.

If we want 'a scene where Sigmar reaches out' before we're willing to vote for that scene we're probably putting the cart before the horse. I recall a certain Chaos Warrior with a similar desire.
If Mathilde ever gets rid of Disdain for Sigmar its going to be learning to tolerate Sigmar, and like some of the things he and his followers do, not forming some kind of relationship.

I don't see her ever truly forgiving Sigmar without finding out some outside factor stopped him from saving Abelhelm.
 
Great Catastrophe already happened, the Polar Gates collapsed and Chaos is here.
Ah. I forgot which specific event was named that.
I somehow missed this comment. Thanks!
None of this is a citation containing proof that the cost is didn't include the labor cost. None of this is a citation that the price increases exponentially. The turn says the cost of the Reverse Engineered storage is low. It is up to you to prove that Boney cut out labor cost in that assertion. Why would Mathilde forget to include labor cost in that?
I'm sorry, but how would work from a Wizard or Runesmith ever be low?
The cost of the Waystone Project in general does not make sense on an individual scale. No matter the component, it will be immensely expensive. Because you're building thousands of them across a continent. It is pointless to measure it in hard currency. In the post containing the initial vote Boney even asked us not to ask them what it would be.
That doesn't make much sense IMO. Boney asked us to not try and get him to put actual price tags on anything, not to literally ignore basic setting facts. A Waystone rollout needing a Titan-metal capstone on each Waystone costs much much more than one that needs a "stone flower" made out of easy to source mundane rock, but a mason skilled enough to carve an intricate letter into something will always be magnitudes cheaper than a Runesmith. Even the shoddiest apprentice Runesmith is still a person who a) belongs to a specific low population race, b) belongs to a minority bloodline and c) was accepted as an apprentice by a Dwarf in one of the most prestigious Guilds/Clans/Cults of the Karaz Ankor. In contrast, every small-to-medium sized Human town will have someone who can accurately carve pretty stuff into a gravestone or over an official building entrance or whatever. The payment order will be national level favors, but the assembly line will still have concrete costs that automatically and quickly add up.

That research is already done. It's a big chunk of what the Jades and Lights are contributing.

Ah. I guess it happened completely off screen? Is there anything you are willing to share about it? Like, does the whole Waystone Project team understand the roughest basics of how a Runestone does attraction, storage and transmission? Or how, for that matter, the feng shui one in the coffee shop does any of that?

Another question I have is regarding the development of more than one additional Waystone model. Do you have any preference on whether we should do that in parallel? My reasoning is that if we do two models at once you can intertwine and contrast the on-screen development and maybe save some writing time, especially for the repetitive parts.
 
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Ah. I guess it happened completely off screen? Is there anything you are willing to share about it?

It's not something they banged out in recent years, it's the inherited knowledge and secrets of their respective traditions. That is why these other traditions got sought out in the first place, because there are things they already know.

Another question I have is regarding the development of more than one additional Waystone model. Do you have any preference on whether we should do that in parallel? My reasoning is that if we do two models at once you can intertwine and contrast the on-screen development and maybe save some writing time, especially for the repetitive parts.

That's entirely up to the voters to decide.
 
That doesn't make much sense IMO. Boney asked us to not try and get him to put actual price tags on anything. But still, a Waystone rollout needing a Titan-metal capstone on each Waystone costs much much more than one that needs a "stone flower" made out of easy to source mundane rock, but a mason skilled enough to carve an intricate letter into something will always be magnitudes cheaper than a Runesmith. Even the shoddiest apprentice Runesmith is still a person who a) belongs to a specific low population race, b) belongs to a minority bloodline and c) was accepted as an apprentice by a Dwarf in one of the most prestigious Guilds/Clans/Cults of the Karaz Ankor. In contrast, every small-to-medium sized Human town will have someone who can accurately carve pretty stuff into a gravestone or over an official building entrance or whatever. The payment order will be national level favors, but the assembly line will still have concrete costs that automatically and quickly add up.
While I agree in a general sense, the stone flower capstone requires high magic, and therefore and eleven archmage to create. The cheapest capstone labor-wise is probably going to be the runic inductor.

The first is the Collegiate Fascis, your own invention, which involves eight rods bearing simple enchantments around a conductive core. While this has minimal material costs and could be replicated by just about any Wind-based enchanter, eight separate enchantments is a substantial amount of effort, and it was built under the assumption of a connection to the Waystone Network and will not function without it.

The second is the Stone Flower designed by the Grey Lords Elrithish and Seilph, consisting of a single simple enchantment on carved stone that absorbs and relays energies exactly as needed. The only problem is that it is a product of High Magic, and as such can only be made by a small number of highly skilled Mages from Laurelorn or Ulthuan.

Finally there is the Runic Inductor, Thorek's design incorporating two simple Runes, one of which he rediscovered. While very simple and cheap to make, it is also a very basic instrument, simply absorbing and transmitting energy without regard for the consequences of them intermingling. Most of the time the Winds' tendency to naturally repel each other would be sufficient to prevent the creation of Dhar, but when multiple Winds are present in large amounts and being absorbed by a Waystone incorporating this component, more of it would be transmitted downstream as Dhar than would be the case for the other two components
 
Found a typo in that old update:
"Hmm." He looks over to wear the Greatswords are gathered. "Gustav then?"
Any secondary Waystone design we develop should ideally not compete for resourcing or labor with the design we currently have, so as not to cut into that production rate. But I agree it might make more sense to see how deployment of the current design goes for a year or so, and then take any emergent shortcomings into account. Presupposing we can keep the project members engaged without a new design goal. Maybe design some new components?
 
I'm sorry, but how would work from a Wizard or Runesmith ever be low?

That doesn't make much sense IMO. Boney asked us to not try and get him to put actual price tags on anything. But still, a Waystone rollout needing a Titan-metal capstone on each Waystone costs much much more than one that needs a "stone flower" made out of easy to source mundane rock, but a mason skilled enough to carve an intricate letter into something will always be magnitudes cheaper than a Runesmith. Even the shoddiest apprentice Runesmith is still a person who a) belongs to a specific low population race, b) belongs to a minority bloodline and c) was accepted as an apprentice by a Dwarf in one of the most prestigious Guilds/Clans/Cults of the Karaz Ankor. In contrast, every small-to-medium sized Human town will have someone who can accurately carve pretty stuff into a gravestone or over an official building entrance or whatever. The payment order will be national level favors, but the assembly line will still have concrete costs that automatically and quickly add up.
I dunno, probably a matter of being quick to complete. Mathilde generally takes a bit more than a month and a half (1 AP) to complete an enchantment, the Rune can be completed in a week or two. The waystone component list just says that the cost of a Dwarf-carved rune is low. Labor is the most important driver of cost. You can't not include it. We can see a high cost Runesmith action: the Expensive Runed Storage. If the cost of production didn't include the cost of labor, it would have been mentioned somewhere, but it wasn't.

But we can make a pretty good guess that the waystone update costs included the cost of labor. The Runic Inductor has a negligible cost. The Dwarven carved Rune has a low cost. The Runic Inductor is just made on a bit of stone and consists of two runes. The Dwarven carved Rune is carved on cladding and consists of one rune. The most obvious explanation for the price difference is the price of the labor it takes to produce them. An apprentice would obviously be cheaper to hire than a Runesmith, even if the apprentice is making double the number of runes. There's not a substantial difference in the material. The main difference is who does it.

Additionally, for the Rune, there is no material difference between the options. It's all going to be carved on the same cladding. It is just a matter of who does it. But the Runesmith or Wizard-carved Runes cost more.

"This was one of the first Runes I ever recovered," Thorek says, tapping on a stone cube bearing a Rune on its top that looks uncomfortably like the Star of Chaos, only with the arrows pointing inwards. "It's very simple in itself. The tricky part is that it just attracts and absorbs energies, it doesn't do anything with them. Before the Time of Woes we used to use this to seal away malign energies to be buried in exhausted mineshafts." He turns the cube over, revealing another Rune on the bottom, this one of a line that loops three times. "This one's only slightly trickier and most of it's the chiselwork, any Apprentice worth the title should be able to manage it by their third decade. It discharges the energies back out again."
Thorek's part in this needs to wait until the stone cladding is put over the assembled components - as necessary as it is for insulation and durability, hiding away the clashing aesthetics of the multiple components is equally important in your eyes - but once it is done, Thorek spends several days running his hands over it and examining it from every angle while taking copious notes, and then a mere afternoon chiselling a Rune - three diagonal lines coming off one horizontal one - into one side of the new Waystone.
 
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Me sending subliminal messages to Mathilde to try out a different outfit at a formal event for once.

It doesn't have to be a dress! She can do a semi-military-ish outfit with riding pants cause I imagine Empire culture would be very cool with that. Their is for sure lady Knights after all. You even got the title for it doooork! I can understand why she just rolls with the robes cause it sends a very clear message of who she is, but still :^).

Pardon I'm weirdly fixated on this right now lol. I been taking notes on Empire Fashion while going through the roleplaying books, and it ranges from renaissance to early modern and 'What if it had skulls'.
While Mathilde may only wear her wizard robes, if she is doing some sort of espionage and posing as a different persona she can be in all sorts of outfits!
 
Regarding the issues of Waystone design, I know that I'd like to do basically a repeat of our current design that's just leyline compatible at the absolute minimum. We've already got confirmation all the other parts work in the design, we just need to switch out one specific component so that the design doesn't nerd access to a river. The new version should be just as good as the original, just with more freedom about where we can put it.
 
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