Well it does tell us something quite important, the ominous warning from Gunnars about potentially facing Chaos Dwarfs 2.0 should be taken with a healthy helping of salt since they would be influenced by the sort of bad mouthing Thorek mentioned here. Not that Dun could not have been tainted by Chaos but in light of this revelation it seems less likely.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Well it does tell us something quite important, the ominous warning from Gunnars about potentially facing Chaos Dwarfs 2.0 should be taken with a healthy helping of salt since they would be influenced by the sort of bad mouthing Thorek mentioned here. Not that Dun could not have been tainted by Chaos but in light of this revelation it seems less likely.
- Location
- Earth
Have a draft to discuss.
Max and Johann get to spend all their time on preparations.
Options have been added to have them train Hubert, those are worth consideration. Anyone have a good idea for that?
I am not really attached to the EIC action and I somewhat dislike our Niter being outside of it. Let's make some more profit.
Actions are mostly spent on preparation: Armor, Fog Path, Branulhune and Pall of Darkness.
I am unsure which area we want to scout most. suggestions?
[] Plan: LightLan
-[] Contains 1 [OVERWORK] action
-[][MAX] Allow him to spend all his time on his own preparations.
-[][JOHANN] Allow him to spend all his time on his own preparations.
-[][DUCK] Attempt to recruit Esbern and Seija and their compatriots of the Knights of Taal's Fury.
-[][EIC] Integrate the Gong Farmers and the Niter Factory into the EIC, and expand production.
-[] Enchant an item with a Fiendishly Complex or easier spell: Enchant new Robes with Aethyric Armour including our Mastery - Indefatigable.
-[] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Try to create them.
-[] Continue to work on your 'Fog Path' spell.
--[] Coin: The Gambler
-[] Try to see through Pall of Darkness with your improved magical senses.
-[] With the help of a gyrocarriage, personally scout part of the route (Road of Skulls)
-[][PENTHOUSE] Add security measures to your Penthouse to prevent forcible entry.
-[][SERENITY] Warp Lightning observations
@BoneyM is Melkoth still available on Belegar's dime. I get the feeling you weren't too happy about this the last time?
Max and Johann get to spend all their time on preparations.
Options have been added to have them train Hubert, those are worth consideration. Anyone have a good idea for that?
I am not really attached to the EIC action and I somewhat dislike our Niter being outside of it. Let's make some more profit.
Actions are mostly spent on preparation: Armor, Fog Path, Branulhune and Pall of Darkness.
I am unsure which area we want to scout most. suggestions?
[] Plan: LightLan
-[] Contains 1 [OVERWORK] action
-[][MAX] Allow him to spend all his time on his own preparations.
-[][JOHANN] Allow him to spend all his time on his own preparations.
-[][DUCK] Attempt to recruit Esbern and Seija and their compatriots of the Knights of Taal's Fury.
-[][EIC] Integrate the Gong Farmers and the Niter Factory into the EIC, and expand production.
-[] Enchant an item with a Fiendishly Complex or easier spell: Enchant new Robes with Aethyric Armour including our Mastery - Indefatigable.
-[] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Try to create them.
-[] Continue to work on your 'Fog Path' spell.
--[] Coin: The Gambler
-[] Try to see through Pall of Darkness with your improved magical senses.
-[] With the help of a gyrocarriage, personally scout part of the route (Road of Skulls)
-[][PENTHOUSE] Add security measures to your Penthouse to prevent forcible entry.
-[][SERENITY] Warp Lightning observations
@BoneyM is Melkoth still available on Belegar's dime. I get the feeling you weren't too happy about this the last time?
- Location
- Earth
Dum Runesmiths sound more like wizards meddling in things the other runesmith think they should not meddle with.
At Best they have accepted that their Ancestors did not know it all and they have to carefully search for new stuff.
At Worst they became too enthusiastic or desperate to search for new stuff, which might be dangerous.
But likely not more so than wizards delving into dangerous research which Mathy has a lot of experience with.
That's a bridge too far. Mathilde has really been racking up the charges on Belegar's credit card, and this time you don't have 'learning battle magic' as a justification.
Should be Magister, right?
- Location
- United States
i like it lightlan
It has to be a fire.
Kick-flip runesmiths yeah. Definitely think we should go Protector on this one, if we can get friendly contacts with one of them (and find them alive of course) a whole host of inovative projects might open up.
So they're prideful as hell...
... And are feeling bitter and vindicated as hell. They gave a warning and were ignored, and nobody came to help them when the apocalypse came.
(Also oof for the rest of the Karaz Ankor and the Karaz Ankor's Runelords. They're probably just wishing that Karag Dum can be forgotten quietly. A deep shame that nobody wants to think about. And convincing themselves that Karag Dum wasn't trustworthy at all, to make themselves feel better about what happened. And an expedition to rescue or check on Karag Dum... it's simultaneously something Dwarfs feel needs to be done (because Dwarfs can't leave things alone, at least not without feeling incredibly shitty about it) but also it is poking at a delicate topic too. I wonder if Borek was recruiting from the Holds he felt were most likely to be willing to help Karag Dum, and avoiding those that had most badmouthed Karag Dum? i.e. It might not have been pure arrogance, but perhaps weariness or fatalism; 'These Holds' Runelords had the most hot words to say about my home. Recruiting from them would be problematic.')
So. Anyway. If any of them remain in Karag Dum, they're going to be running off of and feeling not just regular Dwarf stubbornness, but the extra special strong I-warned-you-all and but-none-of-you-listened type of bitterness and disappointment, too. They had to survive on their own, but they did survive. And now they come to help them? Almost 200 years after the fact? Yeah, they aren't going to be happy people at all.
Though perhaps somebody going 'You were right' to them might make them feel a bit better.
Who knows though. Especially since the outside world is busy trying to convince itself that the Karag Dum Dwarfs were unreliable messengers. Which means when the Karag Dum Dwarfs meet that attitude if they make it back to the rest of the Karaz Ankor, it's going to be very provocative for them. Will probably result in either some kind of shunning or extremely chilly détente with the Karag Dum Dwarfs, or, a lot of Karaz Ankor Runesmiths taking Slayer Oaths.
Would they even want to come back to the Karaz Ankor? They might feel abandoned by them. They know that the Karaz Ankor thought them arrogant. And they either can guess that the Karaz Ankor will be going 'Blame the messenger', or will eventually run into that attitude at some point. Somebody faced with that... with that level of lack of faith in them, they'd be pissed I imagine. They might prefer to die fighting, sticking it to the enemy.
And on the other hand, it's possible that there's some relics or treasures or infrastructure at Karag Dum that can't be moved and it would be very bad if Chaos got ahold of it or destroyed it. So there'd be yet another reason to hold their ground and die fighting, rather than run away and live to fight another day.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
[] Plan: Fog Path to Success (Damsels and Rune smiths)
-[] MAX: Allow him to spend all his time on his own preparations.
-[] JOHANN: Allow him to spend all his time on his own preparations.
-[ ] DUCK: Aid Hubert in his search for a Familiar.
-[ ] EIC: Improve the EIC's paramilitary river navy. (NEW)
-[ ] With the help of a gyrocarriage, personally scout part of the route specify: Western Great Steppes
-[ ] Try to see through Pall of Darkness with your improved magical senses.
-[ ] Continue to work on your 'Fog Path' spell
--[ ] The Gambler: specify an action this will apply to: Fog path spell
-[ ] Enchant an item with a Fiendishly Complex or easier spell: Robe with AA and AA mastery.
-[ ] Attempt to recruit assistance for the Karag Dum Expedition. (Damsels of Bretonnia, Rune Smiths)
-[ ] PENTHOUSE: Add security measures to your Penthouse to prevent forcible entry.
-[ ] Write a paper: select which. [ Warp Lightning observations - shared with Adela ] (Serenity)
I've chosen to aid Hubert in his search for a familiar. He's the weakest link on this journey and helping him get a familiar that could boost his magic score or give him miscast protection or luck is absolutely sensible in my mind.
EIC is improving rather than expanding their river navy, I share a lot of the qualms people have regarding making a merchant company have its own armed forces, at the same time the banditry problem is incredibly severe. So lets bump up the quality of defences instead of trying to turn the company towards being an actual force in its own right.
Rune smiths and Damsels for the obvious reasons. Damsels are the priestess of the goddess of purity and are utterly incorruptible in lore, they have potent magic and are called out as the most powerful mortal casters in the old world. Rune smiths because we're probably going to need them if the Karak has been knocked over and all that remains are deep vaults and perhaps hidden safety zones which might be obscured by runic enchantments.
-[] MAX: Allow him to spend all his time on his own preparations.
-[] JOHANN: Allow him to spend all his time on his own preparations.
-[ ] DUCK: Aid Hubert in his search for a Familiar.
-[ ] EIC: Improve the EIC's paramilitary river navy. (NEW)
-[ ] With the help of a gyrocarriage, personally scout part of the route specify: Western Great Steppes
-[ ] Try to see through Pall of Darkness with your improved magical senses.
-[ ] Continue to work on your 'Fog Path' spell
--[ ] The Gambler: specify an action this will apply to: Fog path spell
-[ ] Enchant an item with a Fiendishly Complex or easier spell: Robe with AA and AA mastery.
-[ ] Attempt to recruit assistance for the Karag Dum Expedition. (Damsels of Bretonnia, Rune Smiths)
-[ ] PENTHOUSE: Add security measures to your Penthouse to prevent forcible entry.
-[ ] Write a paper: select which. [ Warp Lightning observations - shared with Adela ] (Serenity)
I've chosen to aid Hubert in his search for a familiar. He's the weakest link on this journey and helping him get a familiar that could boost his magic score or give him miscast protection or luck is absolutely sensible in my mind.
EIC is improving rather than expanding their river navy, I share a lot of the qualms people have regarding making a merchant company have its own armed forces, at the same time the banditry problem is incredibly severe. So lets bump up the quality of defences instead of trying to turn the company towards being an actual force in its own right.
Rune smiths and Damsels for the obvious reasons. Damsels are the priestess of the goddess of purity and are utterly incorruptible in lore, they have potent magic and are called out as the most powerful mortal casters in the old world. Rune smiths because we're probably going to need them if the Karak has been knocked over and all that remains are deep vaults and perhaps hidden safety zones which might be obscured by runic enchantments.
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- Location
- Germany
Would propably be better for the Karaz Ankor in general if all the Runesmiths of Karag Dum are dead by now. Or at least won't press the issue further if they survived.
I mean, no matter if they where wrong, a dozen Runelords taking the Orange over their past mistakes would be utterly devastating to the dwarfs. Each of those is incredibly valuable and takes literal centuries to replace.
I mean, no matter if they where wrong, a dozen Runelords taking the Orange over their past mistakes would be utterly devastating to the dwarfs. Each of those is incredibly valuable and takes literal centuries to replace.
On the one hand that is very true, on the other hand the position of Dun seems to be 'we can and should do more than the Ancestors left us' which is quintessential radicalism. If this whole thing comes to a head and they win the argument it might change the way rune-smiths as a whole approach their craft and they like all of Karaz Ankor need that to survive.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
I wish we had named our company something else because everybody looks at the name and draws real world paralels instead of actually looking at the company itself.
Why shouldn't a patriotic company not able to defend itself?
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
I disagree, Karak Dum shouldn't have been ignored and a big part of why they were is how calcified traditions have become in the Karaz-ankor. Yes losing those Rune smiths in the short term is bad, but honestly we have Thorek and his army of apprentices around, if Thorek is suddenly in much smaller peer group his views will become defacto dominant given he's a living ancestor and Kragg stays out of politics.
There's cultural benefits to be had from them eating their fuckup. The fact that they're pretending Karak Dum were unreliable messengers is a disgrace.
Prideful, which is quite the mess in its own right, but where I suspect Thungni wouldn't disapprove much, the tradition bound Karaz Ankor would be on the brink of schism.
Seems the Eight Peaks current situation isn't exactly unique huh?
The old story. Crying wolf, as seen by the Karaz Ankor.
Probably happens a fair bit, to be fair. Dwarves being dwarves you could rely on them to keep on retrying their personal hot topic every conclave and for those who have chosen to ignore it the first time round to ignore it the second time round.
I don't think they COULD have survived accepting that Karag Dum was right - that many prominent Runelords going Slayer in atonement would have been a deathblow to the Karaz Ankor
I *think* we're safe to recruit Runesmiths, but only from Azul then, having been isolated and unable to be tainted. Or a Karak Kadrin runelord.
Thats a fairly convenient setup to recharge.
No big deal then.
Shouldn't be too hard to silent cast Invisibility or Shadowsteed and skedaddle
Enchanting miscast huh?
Thats certainly devastatingly effective. Most things that aren't hero level durable SHOULD be adequately dealt with.
...wonder if the taste could be improved by varying the liquid used
As many a bootcamp made use of - no better way to breed unity than having a common affliction.
Though I hope it doesn't become a second Karag Dum situation.
Okral: "AAAAA"
Cython: "Helping!"
K8P Dwarves: "The Drakk is strange and dangerous, but its funny to see the Okral react like that. Keep a good poker face on guys. Look like you see this sort of thing every day."
K8P Humans: "Dragon carvings! Get yer Dragon Carvins Today!"
Its a dragon of culture.
"The dragon has the personality of a priest, basically."
Kazrik: "Ah, yes, the unexpected is certainly a specialty of the Loremaster"
Gorfang the Hungry, IIRC wasn't a very subtle sort, pouring orcs down a tunnel into certain death without stopping.
On the other hand he could certainly pour a LOT of orc.
Oh hey, whats this do?
Our fief would increase traffic, with both good and bad, but it'd not be all that subtle.
The Sunken Palace is near their usual operations enough that someone could just vanish off the side.
Expand would be getting more warships to escort the barges I think, but that'd eat into the margins pretty bad.
Improve should probably start with upping equipment and possibly training some sailors as full time marines, not as hot a deterrent, but I dare say a few more Repeaters on board would be a simple up front cost well enough.
I wonder what a red wizard could do with that flask? Cause dragon fire could empower All his spells. He could also keep it on his staff to recharge.
Might push back the chaos wastes and get Kislev in our debt. Assuming it's still fixable.
speaking of eating fuck ups. Do you think we could find some elves to repair the waystone channel over there?
Might push back the chaos wastes and get Kislev in our debt. Assuming it's still fixable.
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- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
So any runesmiths on the expedition need to come from Azul, as they were not involved in the conclave.
And yes I totally agree about immigration, and suriviving ?runemasters? Are likely to fit in a lot better somewhere where there isn't an established runesmiths guild. Which is essentially just K8P if you're talking about holds of sufficient note.
Throw in some discussion of maybe opposing the chaos dwarves(b/c this is the only hold that has a pressing reason to care about increasing cross-darklands trade), something about them wanting to get away form Daemons trying to hunt them down and end their knowledge of fighting Chaos.
And most especially, something about the possibility of a way stone project.
We could get some impressive immigration.
I ... guess? If overwork just means that we'll need to crash after the expedition then that's fine.
It sort of feels like it shouldn't work like that, but the QM did just say a little while ago that if overwork applied to the actions it is used on then it would never be used. Maybe double check beforehand to make sure that it doesn't apply a malus to actions during the expedition.
And if it does, then like, go back in time a turn, so we can do a ton of overwork then recover in time for the expedition.
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NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
Okay. So assuming I've understood this correctly, the Karag Dum runesmiths started getting a bit arrogant about themselves, and then started making claims that at the time were a little hard for the rest of the Karak Ankor to swallow. Because of that, the rest of the runesmiths ignored their claims in an attempt to chastise some humility into them, only to end up with huge amounts of egg on their faces when it turns out the KD runesmiths not only weren't exaggerating, they were dead on and their warnings might have saved huge numbers of dwarven lives if they'd been listened to. In an attempt to save face and shift the blame away from themselves, the more vocal members of the anti-KD brigade have been engaging in a smear campaign against KD ever since.
Does that sound about right?
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- Location
- Somewhere in the area
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
While some may take the update to mean that Karak Dum is much less likely to be tainted by chaos, consider the following:
You are a Runemaster of Karak Dum, already considered radical by your "fellows" in the greater Karaz Ankor, for the sacrifices and discoveries made in the name of fighting off Chaos. From what you've seen, Chaos will be beginning a big push in a handfull of decades. You arrive at the Runesmith Guild meeting, and make your case for the Greater Karaz Ankor to begin preparing for what is to come.
They refuse to listen, instead focusing on foolish things, petty rivalries and greed. It is clear to you that you cannot rely on them to help you. Karak Dum will have to stand alone against the forces of Oblivion, like Grimnir the once did. Like he still does as far as you believe. And you of all dwarves know how powerful belief is.
Chaos comes, engulfing the lands around the hold, potentially the entire world. It does not matter, Karak Dum may stand alone, but it stands tall, it stands strong thanks to your efforts. And as the years of siege continue, supplies slowly dwindling, warriors falling with no one to take their place, the Dawi of Karak Dum make sure that every centimeter lost is paid by the Enemy in an ocean of blood. Sadly, it is something they can afford to pay in the end. Even still, you are willing to go farther from tradition in the name of the survival of yourself and what could potentially be the last dawi on Mallus.
In such a desperate situation, what might you do in the name of protecting your people? When you are abandoned by those that stuck to tradition, how far will you go in the name of survival? The fire dwarves in the east faced this same question, they made their choice. What about you? You may have lines you think you'll never cross now, but can you say the same after decades of constant demonic incursions? What about centuries? When a quarter of the dawi in the hold are dead? Or half? Or only a quater are still alive?
I am not sure what we'll find in Karak Dum, but I know that any survivors will be ones who've had to make tough decisions in the name of survival, Runemaster or not.
You are a Runemaster of Karak Dum, already considered radical by your "fellows" in the greater Karaz Ankor, for the sacrifices and discoveries made in the name of fighting off Chaos. From what you've seen, Chaos will be beginning a big push in a handfull of decades. You arrive at the Runesmith Guild meeting, and make your case for the Greater Karaz Ankor to begin preparing for what is to come.
They refuse to listen, instead focusing on foolish things, petty rivalries and greed. It is clear to you that you cannot rely on them to help you. Karak Dum will have to stand alone against the forces of Oblivion, like Grimnir the once did. Like he still does as far as you believe. And you of all dwarves know how powerful belief is.
Chaos comes, engulfing the lands around the hold, potentially the entire world. It does not matter, Karak Dum may stand alone, but it stands tall, it stands strong thanks to your efforts. And as the years of siege continue, supplies slowly dwindling, warriors falling with no one to take their place, the Dawi of Karak Dum make sure that every centimeter lost is paid by the Enemy in an ocean of blood. Sadly, it is something they can afford to pay in the end. Even still, you are willing to go farther from tradition in the name of the survival of yourself and what could potentially be the last dawi on Mallus.
In such a desperate situation, what might you do in the name of protecting your people? When you are abandoned by those that stuck to tradition, how far will you go in the name of survival? The fire dwarves in the east faced this same question, they made their choice. What about you? You may have lines you think you'll never cross now, but can you say the same after decades of constant demonic incursions? What about centuries? When a quarter of the dawi in the hold are dead? Or half? Or only a quater are still alive?
I am not sure what we'll find in Karak Dum, but I know that any survivors will be ones who've had to make tough decisions in the name of survival, Runemaster or not.
- Location
- Finland
Problem is that you suddenly have a new, improved ideology, but nobody truly capable of following through with it.
Loss of the runelords would mean decades, if not centuries, of playing catch up to get back to where they are now, and any major threat during that time could deal irrecoverable damage to the dwarves.
- Location
- Australia
Oh huh, that was a pleasant surprise. I was seeing the vote to buy the daemon trap spell win and voted no, not noticing later the vote for a dragon's breath item. Would've voted for it If I did notice and I'm glad it won.
Though uh...could someone sell me on it as it currently is? Blowing up a tree stump doesn't seem like too big of a deal to me, but I think I'm probably perceiving it the wrong way.
Though uh...could someone sell me on it as it currently is? Blowing up a tree stump doesn't seem like too big of a deal to me, but I think I'm probably perceiving it the wrong way.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Okay. So assuming I've understood this correctly, the Karag Dum runesmiths started getting a bit arrogant about themselves, and then started making claims that at the time were a little hard for the rest of the Karak Ankor to swallow. Because of that, the rest of the runesmiths ignored their claims in an attempt to chastise some humility into them, only to end up with egg on their faces when it turns out the KD runesmiths not only weren't exaggerating, they were dead on and their warnings might have saved huge numbers of dwarven lives if they'd been listened to. In an attempt to save face and shift the blame away from themselves, the more vocal members of the anti-KD brigade have been engaging in a smear campaign against KD ever since.
Does that sound about right?
Yea, that's a valid read on what is stated to have happened. I'm sure that the Karaz -Ankor rune smiths would say that they cried wolf but like. Asavar Kul isn't the only everchosen to have attacked. Chaos waxes and wanes and Karak Dum would have been in the path of every major incursion that goes into the old world. They almost certainly weren't crying wolf as per the story given you know they're on the front line, I mean in previous warnings.
Then we'll cover for that weakness by making the Empire and the dwarves more firmly joined at the hip. Together the two can weather almost anything. Thorek becoming the political lead for the Karaz-Ankor rune smiths and he would if this happens because Kragg detests politics and is basically a lone wolf when it comes rune smithing would mean that we have the best possible in roads into making this happen on a college-Rune smith level as well.
Also given how calcified tradition seems to make rune smiths and that these ones in particular are highly likely to be the kind that are essentially against innovation i'm not seeing the loss. Mind Thorek will probably have to make his army of apprentices even larger but like meh.
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- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
You underestimate the ability people have to justify things to themselves:
"This [immoral/violent/underhanded] action in order to build greater profits is ok when I do it - after all while I(/the company) am profiting from it, I'm doing it for the empire, and that makes it ok"
----
I've not bothered to expand this into a full paragraph, but I hope that the line above conveys why, in my view "bone-deep patriot" means nothing whatsoever in terms of reassuring me that the problems you dismiss are not an issue.
The name being 'EIC' makes it easy to point to as terrible example of corporate imperialism and violence. If the game's EIC were called some other thing, I would still hold the concerns I do - I am looking at the (game) company itself.
Edit: Like... I don't know how to hammer in: "You underestimate the ability people have to justify doing unethical (murder/slavery/contracts as unequal as to be akin to slavery) things in order to satisfy their desires/goals (i.e. profit)."
The patriot thing is a protection against a very specific failing in your average corporation - in all other ways that corps can go bad, it's just another lever that helps someone make justifications to themselves to someone making harmful choices
"It's for the good of the empire" is a fantastic line to help some people sleep at night.
The patriot thing is a protection against a very specific failing in your average corporation - in all other ways that corps can go bad, it's just another lever that helps someone make justifications to themselves to someone making harmful choices
"It's for the good of the empire" is a fantastic line to help some people sleep at night.
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