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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I suspect that inventing a few more of our own spells might well help with reverse engineering other battle magic. Particularly a diversity of effects. Creating an apparition (or if we're really lucky divine spirit) binding spell, spells that use that mist in various ways.

Talking of blue sky research, I wonder how dangerous it would be to hook into a bound apparitions perception of the world to get a different way of seeing and understanding supernatural phenomena.

I also wonder if apparition based spells might be more transferable than other spells, as much of the heavy lifting of the details of the spell is inherent to the apparition rather than by the wizard themselves having to define and understand everything.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Thanks! Youll note that my posts were initially questions not complaints although granted coloured by my disapointment after that there are no complaints just discussion over what spell creation actually means for the colleges.
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Well, i'm just find the expectation of getting more than what we explicitly paid for.
SuperSonicSound said:
I was expecting that learning Battle Magic spells gave Mathilde more insight into her wind as she learns new methods of manipulating reality.
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I mean, maybe that might hold true in real life, but this is a game, with very explicit costs for stuff like learning spells.
Why expect to get freebies?
We wanted a spell, we paid for aspell, we got a spell.
We want insights, we should be researching magic, taking risks by going beyond our reach (no, this was not it, just look at those bonusses, this was insanely safe for magic), not taking a class, even with a high tier tutor.
 
Valmond said:
Well, i'm just find the expectation of getting more than what we explicitly paid for.

I mean, maybe that might hold true in real life, but this is a game, with very explicit costs for stuff like learning spells.
Why expect to get freebies?
We wanted a spell, we paid for aspell, we got a spell.
We want insights, we should be researching magic, taking risks by going beyond our reach (no, this was not it, just look at those bonusses, this was insanely safe for magic), not taking a class, even with a high tier tutor.
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Okay you've made your position clear but calling it 'expecting freebies' is framing things in a pretty provocative way. The fact that we stacked our bonuses to a crazy degree actually makes it more likely to give ancillary benefits rather than less any way for the same reason that it's a game and usually crushing rolls like that does mean you get more than a pass but like the turn isn't over yet and maybe the crazy high roll will have impact else where.

That said sure, I guess we have to explicitly research magic to learn new things now, rather than try and draw on the collective body of knowledge that the colleges has. In fairness it's not like our character sheet doesn't explicitly state as such I just figured there was still more to learn on a theory sense from our colleagues and that this action was one way in which we could do so.

I was wrong, there's more interesting things to discuss so can we move on now or do we need to keep dwelling on that fact repeatedly until I excoriate myself to your satisfaction?
 
Valmond said:
Well, i'm just find the expectation of getting more than what we explicitly paid for.

I mean, maybe that might hold true in real life, but this is a game, with very explicit costs for stuff like learning spells.
Why expect to get freebies?
We wanted a spell, we paid for aspell, we got a spell.
We want insights, we should be researching magic, taking risks by going beyond our reach (no, this was not it, just look at those bonusses, this was insanely safe for magic), not taking a class, even with a high tier tutor.
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I don't have much of a stake in this but I see where @SuperSonicSound is coming from. We paid for Lord Magister Melkoth to teach us the spell he invented. We also rolled somewhere north of 160. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect some more insights out of the deal. That said as @BoneyM just said we have not seen the second action Melkoth was present for yet, getting a bonus on that would be more than satisfactory for the cost.
 
DragonParadox said:
I don't have much of a stake in this but I see where @SuperSonicSound is coming from. We paid for Lord Magister Melkoth to teach us the spell he invented. We also rolled somewhere north of 160. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect some more insights out of the deal. That said as @BoneyM just said we have not seen the second action Melkoth was present for yet, getting a bonus on that would be more than satisfactory for the cost.
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Our reward for the very good roll was getting to have the spell without having to roll for casting while only having it partially learned. It's a good reward.
 
A significant fraction of those laid to rest in the catacombs under the Grey College died trying to learn Battle Magic. Learning even the most basic spell without rolling those dice is significant.
 
Any suggestions to learn battle magic have been met with "it's too dangerous!"
Now that we finally do try and succeed, it's "that's all we get?". :D
 
Valmond said:
Any suggestions to learn battle magic have been met with "it's too dangerous!"
Now that we finally do try and succeed, it's "that's all we get?". :D
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I've wanted to learn battle magic for a long time and I don't and didn't agree that it's to dangerous for us to try and learn it. To use it repeatedly sure, but it's not like we don't have significant bonuses that previous magisters didn't have when it comes to our first attempt to learn it.

BoneyM said:
A significant fraction of those laid to rest in the catacombs under the Grey College died trying to learn Battle Magic. Learning even the most basic spell without rolling those dice is significant.
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Sure but by that same token I dare say a large number of those people were probably recently graduated journeymen wizards that decided to go down the battle magic path rather than the magister path, they didn't wait until their understanding of magic was literally at the edges of what could be taught from the colleges. Obviously I'm not taking away from the danger of learning battle magic but for Mathilde that risk is a heck of a lot less than for a newly minted battle wizard who doesn't even know all of the standard spell list.
 
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Valmond said:
Any suggestions to learn battle magic have been met with "it's too dangerous!"
Now that we finally do try and succeed, it's "that's all we get?". :D
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Honestly agreed. The major argument against learning it was "It's too much risk for limited reward". Why is there such a surprise if the reward is actually limited?
 
BoneyM said:
Not thrilled with the idea of essentially skipping substantial chunks of Mathilde's life.
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We always do so anyway though. We skipped all but single scenes when we helped people in the past. We skip all kinds of more or less tedious work. We skip every time Mathy goes to the toilet.

And it wouldn't be an actual time skip. It would just be 2-4 actions taking the space of 1.5-2 usual action scenes. And it's not as if you have every action take up the same amount of screen time already. Some of the cooler and more complicated ones are literally whole chapters on their own.

All I want to say is that you shouldn't feel obliged to write tedious essays just because the player base occasionally votes for tedious and boring actions. And as long as we don't make a habit out of it I don't think this requires a quest redesign either.
 
chocolote12 said:
You know we're literally trying to invent an entire other battle magic spell in the same turn, right? There's no point going off and complaining about anything when the Word of BoneyM response to your reaction was 'wait and see'.

Just... Let the magic word skeleton write. We're not on a time limit here or anything, beyond maybe real life ones.
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I mean I'm still not complaining? like you're injecting tone and motivation into my posts that doesn't exist bleh I hate text for conversations like this because this literally isn't how I'm trying to express my self. Oh well.

LightLan said:
Our reward for the very good roll was getting to have the spell without having to roll for casting while only having it partially learned. It's a good reward.
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That's... inaccurate at least as I understand the battle magic learning process. When we learned smoke and mirrors we didn't fully learn the spell and Mathilde tried to cast any way. That is to say we rolled under 100 with all bonuses when learning smoke and mirrors so had to cast it with a penalty.

Here hitting the 100 to learn it was done, so then if we hadn't crushed the roll we'd have had to then try and cast the spell to ensure we knew the spell properly. At which point the staff effect kicks in and we're casting a FC difficulty spell iirc removing much of the danger.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
That's... inaccurate at least as I understand the battle magic learning process. When we learned smoke and mirrors we didn't fully learn the spell and Mathilde tried to cast any way. That is to say we rolled under 100 with all bonuses when learning smoke and mirrors so had to cast it with a penalty.
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BoneyM said:
[Learning Smoke and Mirrors: Learning, Req 100, 65+26+20(Ranald's Blessing)=111.]
[Casting Smoke and Mirrors: Req 50, Learning, 20+26-20(partially learned)=26.]
[Miscast: Learning, 82+26=108.]
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first we need 100 to learn the spell at all, then we need to roll 50 (or more depending on the spell) with a -20 partially learned penalty.

There is no way we have to not roll at all with a partially learned spell no matter what our staff says.
 
LightLan said:
first we need 100 to learn the spell at all, then we need to roll 50 (or more depending on the spell) with a -20 partially learned penalty.

There is no way we have to not roll at all with a partially learned spell no matter what our staff says.
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Hmm, I had misremembered that scene, I thought we rolled under 100 for the first segment. That said our staff wouldn't remove the need to roll and I didn't say it would. It'd drop the required result to successfully cast the spell.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
I mean I'm still not complaining? like you're injecting tone and motivation into my posts that doesn't exist bleh I hate text for conversations like this because this literally isn't how I'm trying to express my self. Oh well.
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That post was deleted after a bit, if you look, because I felt that it was a bit dog-piling-ish.
Valmond said:
One hundred.
There's a one in there.
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Please leave my meme-roll in peace. I did my best.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
I mean I'm still not complaining? like you're injecting tone and motivation into my posts that doesn't exist bleh I hate text for conversations like this because this literally isn't how I'm trying to express my self. Oh well.



That's... inaccurate at least as I understand the battle magic learning process. When we learned smoke and mirrors we didn't fully learn the spell and Mathilde tried to cast any way. That is to say we rolled under 100 with all bonuses when learning smoke and mirrors so had to cast it with a penalty.

Here hitting the 100 to learn it was done, so then if we hadn't crushed the roll we'd have had to then try and cast the spell to ensure we knew the spell properly. At which point the staff effect kicks in and we're casting a FC difficulty spell iirc removing much of the danger.
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Not gonna break it down while phoneposting, but you're seriously underestimating the difficulty and danger, which is probably why you're underwhelmed by what that roll got.
 
So given what happened last turn is Mathilde going to ask Deathwing for tips on how to talk to another dragon whilst on the expedition? You know, conversation topics a dragon might be interested in, fun stories of killing Druchii, that sort of thing?

Edit: As yes, I mean Deathwing, not Asarnil.
 
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