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We voted to learn a spell, we learned a spell.
Not seeing a problem.
If people wanted more, they should ask about it beforehand, not complain after.

Thanks! Youll note that my posts were initially questions not complaints although granted coloured by my disapointment after that there are no complaints just discussion over what spell creation actually means for the colleges.
 
I think you are wrong and you are implicitly contradicting word of god.

If the end result of spell creation is a compiled 'spell' then grey college knowledge wasnt increased, if a paper were written about the process of creating that spell you might increase the techniques available and advance their knowledge/skill base but from everything weve been told magic is to personal for that to happen.

Spell creation grants new tools in a use case sense but absolutely not in a technique/knowledge base sense. At least for any one other than the person that created the spell.

I agree, but that sort of black-boxing does make sense for a human understanding of magic. I mean the colleges are barely 180 years old, they are using a dumbed down version of a magical language designed for a entirely different species with a distinct mentality and centuries to learn (as opposed to humans' decades). The fact that every wizard writes in their own source code an they can only share complied spells seems like a flaw baked into the system.
 
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Maybe expand it to physics/other sciences? would be easier for the non mathematicians in here to contribute :). High level maths makess my head hurt

Shysh > Entropy
Chamon > Nuclear
Aqshy > Thermodynamics, and how to tell it to go cry in a corner...
Sure, if you've got something cool.

Entropy for Shysh doesn't work well. That's one concept, not a whole field, and more, it's a concept from Thermodynamics.
Entropy is really about decay either, it's an expression of the fact that in general, the most likely thing happens. Often, but not always, that's something death/decayish.
 
Maybe expand it to physics/other sciences? would be easier for the non mathematicians in here to contribute :). High level maths makess my head hurt

Shysh > Entropy
Chamon > Nuclear
Aqshy > Thermodynamics, and how to tell it to go cry in a corner...




To extend the compiled code metaphor further, it's however possible (if you know what you're doing) to disassemble the package and look under the hood. Just don't try to do it in the first few months after learning how to program.

You'll just go crosseyed/blow something up. We're missing a trait to be able to get the insight that Melkoth has.

That's like trying to look under the hood of CPython, but not knowing enough C. Or knowing just enough C to read the code and write your own toy project, but not enough to handle code of that complexity yet. (Yes, i'm speaking from experience ;P)

I would say what you are actually talking about in the Mathilde scenario is needing to be able to reverse engineer a program when youve been given the executables.
Mathilde isnt at this stage able to look at the actual code.

Thats what being handed the compiled end product entails.
 
I like to imagine that telic gave the colleges the magic SPSS.

Just about anyone can get the right output if they do the right actions. But 99% of people using it don't actually know why.

And anyone that knows enough to look under the hood can see that the user friendliness of the build in spells is a nightmare for adding anything new or costem.
 
I would say what you are actually talking about in the Mathilde scenario is needing to be able to reverse engineer a program when youve been given the executables.
Mathilde isnt at this stage able to look at the actual code.

Thats what being handed the compiled end product entails.

Isn't it more that Mathilde doesn't really have time to go looking at all the theoretical stuff?

She spends 1 AP to learn a BM spell. That's really not much - if she focused on theory she'd probably understand how the spell works a lot better at the cost of not being able to cast it.
 
You know I wonder how much Mathilde and the Ducklings have tainted the K8P Dwarf's mental image of wizards.

I mean they could now think the our favorite gold punchy boy is normal for Gold Wizards and that Celestial wizards are flying sword guys.
 
Isn't it more that Mathilde doesn't really have time to go looking at all the theoretical stuff?

She spends 1 AP to learn a BM spell. That's really not much - if she focused on theory she'd probably understand how the spell works a lot better at the cost of not being able to cast it.


I dont think there is a theory behind the spell that we can get from any one but Melkoth. Assuming his understanding of Ulgu operates from the same paradigm as us which it almost certainly does not. Like thats the big obstacle facing the colleges theres no way to share insights into magic because its so personal.

Arcane marks make that worse rather than better as it allows more personal insight at the cost of making sharing those insights harder/impossible.

It may be that he will go over theory with us in the next part of the update but im not sure how likely that is given the spell we are trying to create is very different in application.
 
Which poses the question: What Maths correspond to what Wind? Some thoughts:
Ulgu is fuzzy logic, because that's very concerned with truth and blurring the line.
Hysh is regular logic, where truth is an absolute and things are pure. And if you convert something to conjunctive normal form, you can have a ton of people with very little knowledge evaluate the subclauses.
I can't really think of any goods ones for the rest.
No neat mapping/divisions I think. Some Winds have very little to do with math at all. Ulgu works a lot with probabilistics though, taking uncertainties to extract information
I think you are wrong and you are implicitly contradicting word of god.

If the end result of spell creation is a compiled 'spell' then grey college knowledge wasnt increased, if a paper were written about the process of creating that spell you might increase the techniques available and advance their knowledge/skill base but from everything weve been told magic is to personal for that to happen.

Spell creation grants new tools in a use case sense but absolutely not in a technique/knowledge base sense. At least for any one other than the person that created the spell.
Theres a big difference between inventing a spell or magical process you can cast, and developing a spell that people can be taught.

The latter is an increase to College knowledge(though the value of the increase is debatable), the former is increasing your personal abilities.

As had been described to us thus far, the spell development process tends to go thus:
1) Personal quality of some form, whether its a trait, particularly in depth insight, arcane mark or even a spell mastery.
2) Inspiration or motivation intersecting with the above quality.
3) Developing the spell itself.
4) Making the spell comprehensible to people with some of your set of traits.
5) Making the spell comprehensible to people who only share a Wind.
6) Making the spell comprehensible to people who use different Winds.

If you make it to 4, you have a neat trick you could teach a personal apprentice, but would not add to the College's lore significantly, you'd have to basically teach your trait(which we know can be done, but not easily or completely, we did it with Waaaghbane).

If you make it to 5, you have separated casting the spell with the state of being the spell's inventor. The spell has been isolated from the insights that leads to the specific mental state and Wind combination that produces the spell.

Thus, learning spells taught at a stage 5 and above level is relatively safe, easy and fast, but in exchange the only immediate gains are what you would have achieved from expanding your spellbook, the Magic score increases or eventually the Loremaster trait.

On the other hand, having a new spell does mean you can crit with the spell and develop a trait, or abuse the shit out of the spell and develop a trait that way.

To extend the compiled code metaphor further, it's however possible (if you know what you're doing) to disassemble the package and look under the hood. Just don't try to do it in the first few months after learning how to program.

You'll just go crosseyed/blow something up. We're missing a trait to be able to get the insight that Melkoth has.

That's like trying to look under the hood of CPython, but not knowing enough C. Or knowing just enough C to read the code and write your own toy project, but not enough to handle code of that complexity yet. (Yes, i'm speaking from experience ;P)
Having handled decompiled code before, you basically learn shit all about how the code actually works, and are usually better off just creating your own version of that code using the decompilation as an unguided tour through the logic.
 
Deleted from history? I thought it was just being declared "not found" or "not found intact" by a lie of omission. Like so many other looted vaults from so many other lost Karaks.
Seems like it yeah. Its like "we found this in a Skaven lootpile", neglecting to mention that said Skaven lootpile is a complete and unbreached vault that the Skaven had been trying but failing to crack.
 
Strangely enough, I'd rather see what a Cataclysmic Path of Fog would look like. I can imagine what Cataclysmic killy magic is like, I can't quite get my head around what a Utility spell would look like at that level.
A large number of people enter some fog in at location. They all exit from the same point in a different fog dozens to hundreds of miles away a few minutes later. Limits may include range or carrying capacity or precision of exit location.

The rest I can think of are AoE defence spells.
 
I dont think there is a theory behind the spell that we can get from any one but Melkoth. Assuming his understanding of Ulgu operates from the same paradigm as us which it almost certainly does not. Like thats the big obstacle facing the colleges theres no way to share insights into magic because its so personal.

Arcane marks make that worse rather than better as it allows more personal insight at the cost of making sharing those insights harder/impossible.

It may be that he will go over theory with us in the next part of the update but im not sure how likely that is given the spell we are trying to create is very different in application.

Since the Miasma is widely usable by grey wizards it probably operates on a common enough paradigm to be understood by all Uglu users with a certain level of mastery.

Getting a spell to that level is almost certainly horrendously hard though - because otherwise there wouldn't be a mere handful of common Battle Magic spells.
 
Strangely enough, I'd rather see what a Cataclysmic Path of Fog would look like. I can imagine what Cataclysmic killy magic is like, I can't quite get my head around what a Utility spell would look like at that level.

A canonical example is sending an illusion of a terrain feature back in time.

I could also see effects that gave a squad of workers perfect quasi real equipment for a project, the equivilent of mind razor, or something that created, say, a quasi-real fully provisioned castle or fortification for a night that was shrouded in fog and vanished as the mists evaporated in the morning sun. At lower levels it could be a provisioned campsite.
 
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No neat mapping/divisions I think. Some Winds have very little to do with math at all. Ulgu works a lot with probabilistics though, taking uncertainties to extract information

Theres a big difference between inventing a spell or magical process you can cast, and developing a spell that people can be taught.

The latter is an increase to College knowledge(though the value of the increase is debatable), the former is increasing your personal abilities.

As had been described to us thus far, the spell development process tends to go thus:
1) Personal quality of some form, whether its a trait, particularly in depth insight, arcane mark or even a spell mastery.
2) Inspiration or motivation intersecting with the above quality.
3) Developing the spell itself.
4) Making the spell comprehensible to people with some of your set of traits.
5) Making the spell comprehensible to people who only share a Wind.
6) Making the spell comprehensible to people who use different Winds.

If you make it to 4, you have a neat trick you could teach a personal apprentice, but would not add to the College's lore significantly, you'd have to basically teach your trait(which we know can be done, but not easily or completely, we did it with Waaaghbane).

If you make it to 5, you have separated casting the spell with the state of being the spell's inventor. The spell has been isolated from the insights that leads to the specific mental state and Wind combination that produces the spell.

Thus, learning spells taught at a stage 5 and above level is relatively safe, easy and fast, but in exchange the only immediate gains are what you would have achieved from expanding your spellbook, the Magic score increases or eventually the Loremaster trait.

On the other hand, having a new spell does mean you can crit with the spell and develop a trait, or abuse the shit out of the spell and develop a trait that way.

You are contradicting yourself here.

The colleges of magic aren't handed the process of turning that spell into into something that can be used by any one that uses the wind, why isn't present just the how. They're handed the knowledge of how to cast the spell nothing more nothing less. Now it's possible that the wizard involved could try and explain the methods that were used but that's explicitly extremely hit or miss.

Your example with Waaghbane doesn't fit because again Mathilde was explaining the how to disrupt it and whilst she does try to put forward the why it works as well the important part isn't really the 'why'.

Or if you aren't contradicting yourself it's because you're quibbling in semantics. When I talk about knowledge I'm talking about theory and understanding, if Mathilde understood MMM rather than simply being able to cast it, she would have magical effects to be able to pull apart and utilise in spell creation or enchantments and to be able to do things related to what the spell does but that aren't exactly the same.

What Mathilde has isn't understanding of the spell it's the ability to use it. Which is good! It's even the main reason I wanted us to take the action, but it does mean at least right now that it doesn't help much at all with future spell creation, I want Mathilde to be able to make extra dimensional pocket spaces like Algard has in his office; I want to Mathilde to really understand Ulgu as a magical wind, not simply be able to follow a script.

Since the Miasma is widely usable by grey wizards it probably operates on a common enough paradigm to be understood by all Uglu users with a certain level of mastery.

Getting a spell to that level is almost certainly horrendously hard though - because otherwise there wouldn't be a mere handful of common Battle Magic spells.

All that demonstrates is that Melkoth was knowledgeable enough to be able to dumb things down to the point where people could cast by following a script, note that when teaching us he doesn't mention anything about theory just how to shape Ulgu to cast the spell . There's nothing there to explain the why to the how.
 
What Mathilde has isn't understanding of the spell it's the ability to use it. Which is good! It's even the main reason I wanted us to take the action, but it does mean at least right now that it doesn't help much at all with future spell creation, I want Mathilde to be able to make extra dimensional pocket spaces like Algard has in his office; I want to Mathilde to really understand Ulgu as a magical
In that case its barking up the wrong tree entirely. That'd be an action to explicitly research the Miasma, rather than learn it.

You know, like studying to see through Pall of Darkness
 
In that case its barking up the wrong tree entirely. That'd be an action to explicitly research the Miasma, rather than learn it.

You know, like studying to see through Pall of Darkness


That doesn't change the fact that you were describing something very different when saying that the spell being learn able adds to the grey colleges knowledge, when what it actually does is add to their tool set. Any way, there was no sure way to know if this action wouldn't help with that ahead of time and frankly "research the Miasma" would be a player suggested action and those take inordinate effort to get into the thread consensus, and are probably highly risky in the sense that even if everything goes well you may just end up with completely wasted AP.

It's also a very different beast conceptually to the action to see through the pall of darkness, for one thing that was IIRC a QM suggested action. :V
 
Not thrilled with the idea of essentially skipping substantial chunks of Mathilde's life.

In turns where things like that occur couldn't you 'shift' the focus to spend more words on her social life? That way there's no skipping of Mathildes life we just get to see more of the time she spends outside of her hectic schedule?
 
That doesn't change the fact that you were describing something very different when saying that the spell being learn able adds to the grey colleges knowledge, when what it actually does is add to their tool set. Any way, there was no sure way to know if this action wouldn't help with that ahead of time and frankly "research the Miasma" would be a player suggested action and those take inordinate effort to get into the thread consensus, and are probably highly risky in the sense that even if everything goes well you may just end up with completely wasted AP.

It's also a very different beast conceptually to the action to see through the pall of darkness, for one thing that was IIRC a QM suggested action. :V
Its research. Even QM-granted research actions could dead end, though its rarely wasted AP, since even if it gives nothing immediately the process of trying expands the arc-end rewards anyway. Like, the We-silk is thus far still a nothingburger even if we had the idea long before knowing the spooders were a person.

I'm certainly interested enough to add experimenting with the Miasma to the list of Blue Sky research. Its no more improbable than Thongs or Theurgy, in that we have at least one direct example of Melkoth cursing his age to be unknowable, and it probably relates to the underlying principles and we probably can see SOMETHING with our Magesight given a calm stable environment to study the effects of spamming what would be a Battlemagic.

It doesn't have clear deliverables, but hey, the fun of research is finding out.
 
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