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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Rafin said:
Turns out the last time we had a vote on what to present to the King at the council was leading into turn 25 where we proposed the Queekish thing.
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Yeah. We started the Queekish, expecting it to come in useful with all the Skaven factions in Eight Peaks, and then the Karak went completely crazy and all the Skaven in Eight Peaks were obliterated.

WHOOPS.

I wonder how much of continuing the Queekish project was Belegar recognizing its overall importance to the Karaz Ankor, and how much of it was genuine worry at what would happen if he pointed Mathilde towards anything else at all.
 
picklepikkl said:
Not first one ever, but first one in a while; we've been proposing our own projects since T23.
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Didn't we still get to vote what we're gonna talk about before that? Or was that actually not a given since we have officially become Loremaster?

So I looked and before Queekish we've had a council relevant vote every time as far back as the end of turn 19 at least. Mostly related to the We.
 
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Rafin said:
Didn't we still get to vote what we're gonna talk about before that? Or was that actually not a given since we have officially become Loremaster?
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We had votes on how we presented our findings; the most dramatic I remember was that after the We project, we voted to give our recommendation of Uplift as opposed to Trade or Farm. But for our early time at K8P, we just took direction from Belegar. It was only after the reconquest of Karagril that we started proposing our own projects to him instead of him giving us an assignment at the council meeting; we spent two turns on the Eye of Gazul and three turns on Queekish.
 
picklepikkl said:
  • Hubert is having an existential crisis and maybe we should help out with that if it's not too late to do so.
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I'm not sure he's actually having a crisis so much as approaching his way to power differently.
If he's having a crisis he wouldn't be learning one of the riskier Moderately Complicated Azyr spells to get wrong and using it for such trivial matters as flying up to Gretel's tower to show off suggests his Magic rating has improved since the last time we assessed his ability.
Parzival95 said:
Bring up for human/halfling pop:
Basic education, literacy/arithmetic based on the Dwarven model
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The dwarf model of education is basically clan-teaches-clan in apprenticeship format.
 
Yeah, the Hubert option last turn was to try to help him 'find a purpose'. If he's landed on the path of diplomacy, we might not like what it could mean for his development as a wizard, but it can be a purpose.
Might not get the same option this turn, the chance to meddle might be missed.
 
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veekie said:
The dwarf model of education is basically clan-teaches-clan in apprenticeship format.
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BoneyM said:
an orphanage and school in Altdorf would scarcely take up a city block, after all. But Dwarf culture differs very strongly from that of the Empire, as every Dwarf child of a reputable Clan is guaranteed an education and a bed until their childhood comes to a close until the age of thirty. On top of that, the apprentice barracks of the Chiselwards were open to any Dwarf not yet a Fullbeard of seventy years.
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Once more: dwarves of the clans, so most even dwarf in a hold, get a basic education. They can read, write, do arithmetic. Quite a few are bilingual.

This is before they enter an apprenticeship. You, and I, and likely everyone reading this went through primary and secondary education.

This isn't standard in the empire, not even in major cities. Remember, Abelheim didn't think it was worth opening a clerk school in Wurtbad when we couldn't find enough literate people to work for us, and we ended up paying for our employees education anyway. Grown men, many of whom had already completed their service. Most humans, and especially the residents of Karag Nar and probably the halflings (farmers and mercenaries), are illiterate.

This is a big deal. I can't overstate how much of a big deal basic education is. You and I, when when we were kids (I'm generalizing), we bitched and moaned about school. We didn't appreciate it then, and most adults don't even think about it. It's the foundation that our lives are built on in modern society, and we're complacent about it.

If the dwarves already have some form of pre-specialization general education, we could adapt something for non dwarves. This is a major long term investment, but it has the potential to really pay off for the future of our people here in K8P. It's even within our remit as the learning advisor to bring this up to the council.

I mean, Boney could shoot me down and laugh at the idea, but if it's feasible then we've gotta do it. I'm talking, at the very least, primary school. Teach kids to read and write Reikspiel and one other language. Teach them basic math. For now, make such an education available to residents who want it. The dwarves probably haven't even though about it like we don't, if education is just a normal part of childhood, and the humans and halflings may not know what they don't know.

I mean, it's not a shiny toy that makes us +1 more killy or provides an immediate windfall, but it could be critical for the long term development and integration of our people.

Education is important y'all, and people deserve it if it's at all possible.

Edit: Mathilde knows. She was a Stirland peasant, she played in the mud, she was damn near burned at the stake. They work following traditions passed down by rote and fear change as heresy and witchcraft. She would have grown up, married, and pumped out kids, potentially many of whom wouldn't have made it to adulthood, until she either died in childbirth, some unknown ailment, or was taken by any of the many horrors that haunt humanity.

Making that horse neigh was the best thing that ever happened to her.
 
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Parzival95 said:
Once more: dwarves of the clans, so most even dwarf in a hold, get a basic education. They can read, write, do arithmetic. Quite a few are bilingual.

This is before they enter an apprenticeship. You, and I, and likely everyone reading this went through primary and secondary education.

This isn't standard in the empire, not even in major cities. Remember, Abelheim didn't think it was worth opening a clerk school in Wurtbad when we couldn't find enough literate people to work for us, and we ended up paying for our employees education anyway. Grown men, many of whom had already completed their service. Most humans, and especially the residents of Karag Nar and probably the halflings (farmers and mercenaries), are illiterate.

This is a big deal. I can't overstate how much of a big deal basic education is. You and I, when when we were kids (I'm generalizing), we bitched and moaned about school. We didn't appreciate it then, and most adults don't even think about it. It's the foundation that our lives are built on in modern society, and we're complacent about it.

If the dwarves already have some form of pre-specialization general education, we could adapt something for non dwarves. This is a major long term investment, but it has the potential to really pay off for the future of our people here in K8P. It's even within our remit as the learning advisor to bring this up to the council.

I mean, Boney could shoot me down and laugh at the idea, but if it's feasible then we've gotta do it. I'm talking, at the very least, primary school. Teach kids to read and write Reikspiel and one other language. Teach them basic math. For now, make such an education available to residents who want it. The dwarves probably haven't even though about it like we don't, if education is just a normal part of childhood, and the humans and halflings may not know what they don't know.

I mean, it's not a shiny toy that makes us +1 more killy or provides an immediate windfall, but it could be critical for the long term development and integration of our people.

Education is important y'all, and people deserve it if it's at all possible.

Edit: Mathilde knows. She was a Stirland peasant, she played in the mud, she was damn near burned at the stake. They work following traditions passed down by rote and fear change as heresy and witchcraft. She would have grown up, married, and pumped out kids, potentially many of whom wouldn't have made it to adulthood, until she either died in childbirth, some unknown ailment, or was taken by any of the many horrors that haunt humanity.

Making that horse neigh was the best thing that ever happened to her.
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If it's anything like RL middle ages, most humans should be at least basically numerate and literate in their native tongue (Reikspiel). Not to anything like modern standards, but enough to do some basic reading, count and do simple math, etc. Turning that knowledge into a more formalised system of education and expanding it should definitely be possible, but I'm not sure how we'd actually go about doing it- or indeed, whether we actually should even try.

Mathilde personally has too many demands on her time to educate others herself, and while we could just hand someone else orders to do it we'd still need to put in what I suspect would be a fair amount of prep work plus upkeep costs (whether it's gold, favour, or both). That means convincing other people and community leaders that it's a good idea to support it themselves would be the most realistic way to go about introducing better universal education, but I'm honestly not sure how we'd do that. We'd need to overcome things like arguments about the (perceived lack of) value of educating peasants, convince people it's worth their time and gold, push past what's probably a fair bit of cultural inertia towards not handing out formal education to peasants, and so on and so forth. Not impossible, but it wouldn't be a quick and easy task.

And at the end of the day, while it does honestly suck that general education isn't available to most people, it's also not even close to being Mathilde's business. We're K8P's local 'poke funny stuff with a stick' woman first, and a wizard of the empire second (or possibly the other way around). Organising cultural and educational reforms or acting as a leader to the humans of K8P isn't anywhere close to our official wheelhouse, and it doesn't overlap with how Mathilde spends her off-the-clock time or her unofficial concerns either. If we can find a way to fit encouraging education into our plans I wouldn't object to it, but I don't think we should try to shoehorn it just because.

It's not our job to fix every problem out there, and we shouldn't try to.
 
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@BoneyM Can we get a wog on what dwarves most basic, entry level education is like before the apprenticeships?

And if so, would adapting basic primary education in bilingual literacy and maths for non dwarves be within the realm of possibility?

Is this worth talking about? Would it be an investigation action to start? Am I barking up the wrong tree here?

It's more long term then most of what Mathilde does but that doesn't mean it's not worth doing, especially if the dwarves already have some experience. Possibly I misunderstood and am reading too much into that section about the chiselwards.

Edit: I was just rereading through all the QM posts and that bit about the chiselwards jumped out at me, and got me thinking about education, which I am there for.
 
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(High King) Bye, bye, bye
  • Media
    • Parzival95 said:
    I'm sure we'll be hearing all about mixed race idol groups making the rounds of all the hottest clubs in the Karaz Ankor any day now.
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    Belegar is a Fullbeard, he grew up more into old-school Beard(ling) Bands.

    (High King) Bye, bye, bye

    High King
    Bye, bye
    Bye, bye
    Oh oh.

    I'm doin' this tonight
    You're probably gonna start a fight
    I know this can't be right
    Hey Thorgrim come on

    I loved you sincerely
    Then you weren't there for me
    So now it's time to leave and make it alone

    I know that I can't take no more
    It ain't no lie
    I wanna see you out that door
    Dawi bye, bye, bye

    Don't wanna be a fool for you
    Just another player in your game for two
    'Cause you may grudge me but it ain't no lie
    Dawi bye, bye, bye

    Don't really wanna make it tough
    I just wanna tell you that I've had enough
    It might sound crazy
    But it ain't no lie
    Dawi bye, bye, bye

    (Oh, Oh)
    Just hit me with the truth
    Dawi you're more than welcome to
    So give me one good reason
    Thorgrim come on

    I live for all Dawi
    And now I really come to see
    That life would be much better once you're gone

    I know that I can't take no more
    It ain't no lie
    I wanna see you out that door
    High King bye, bye, bye

    Don't wanna be a fool for you
    Just another player in your game for two
    You may grudge me but it ain't no lie
    Dawi bye, bye, bye

    Don't really wanna make it tough
    I just wanna tell you that I've had enough
    It might sound crazy
    But it ain't no lie
    Dawi bye, bye, bye

    I'm giving up I know for sure
    I don't wanna be the reason for your lies no more
    I'm checkin' out and I'm signin' off
    Don't wanna be the loser and I've had enough

    I don't wanna be a fool in this game for two
    So I'm leavin' you behind
    Bye, bye, bye
    I don't wanna make it tough (Make it tough)
    But I've had enough
    Bye, bye, bye
    I don't wanna be a fool for you (I don't wanna be a fool)
    Just another player in your game for two
    I don't wanna a be your fool
    But it ain't no lie Dawi
    Bye, bye, bye
    I don't really wanna make it tough (I don't wanna make it tough)
    I just wanna tell you that I've had enough
    Might sound crazy but it ain't no lie
    Bye, bye, bye
     
  • Media
    • Hmmmmm. If Fullbeards grew up on Beard Bands in the 2390s, then maybe...

    Adults/Beardlings - Millennial Dawi (Gotri, Kazrik, Edda)
    Fullbeards - Gen X (Belegar, Gunnars)
    Longbeards - Boomers (Thorgrim, Dreng, Kazador)
    ...Greatest Generation - Kragg

    One could present as evidence Gotri and Dreng shouting at each other over differences on how to handle elevator mushroom fires, while Belegar and Gunnars shrug bemusedly, I suppose.
     
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    Regarding education, this seems like something we could probably get the cult of Verena to chip in on, as if the library wasn't sufficient reason itself. I imagine 'help establish an education system in an important dwarf settlement' would look good for a lot of priests' resumes, so it'd probably end up as a political gesture on some point but I doubt Belegar would say no to letting more umgi help him establish himself (especially as it's not infringing on traditional dawi methods so much as supplementing them by having the umgi become a bit less umgak).
     
    Parzival95 said:
    @BoneyM Can we get a wog on what dwarves most basic, entry level education is like before the apprenticeships?
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    They get the basics of mining, smelting, metalworking, fighting, and literacy, as well as whatever their Clan's speciality is.

    Parzival95 said:
    And if so, would adapting basic primary education in bilingual literacy and maths for non dwarves be within the realm of possibility?

    Is this worth talking about? Would it be an investigation action to start? Am I barking up the wrong tree here?
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    It's possible, but it would be a lot of work and it's not within Mathilde's area of responsibility, and it feels like it might be an uphill battle to talk the thread into accepting another AP sink.
     
    Alright, thank you, my curiosity is satisfied. If it's out of our bailiwick it's out of our bailiwick. I'd still be down to suggest it to Francesco in the future, (bare minimum basic literacy) but I can accept it's not something Mathilde should be involved in.
     
    silentorphan said:
    Oh, gods, Mathilde's going to be stuck with it for the next 20 years.

    "But it's done!"
    "It's 'good enough.' Still a long way from being 'complete.'"
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    I mean, technically there is still the clan-specific dialects, as well as High Queekish which is only spoken in Skavenblight. Speaking of, we really should figure out a way to get ahold of at least the latter of those at some point. Or let someone else do it for us, since it's not like Mathy is the only person capable of infiltrating Skaven society under an illusion and ferreting it out, but thanks to the Coin we're probably the best.
     
    BoneyM said:
    They get the basics of mining, smelting, metalworking, fighting, and literacy, as well as whatever their Clan's speciality is.
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    I just got the image of dwarfs combining all of the above for a fighting style that utilizes red hot ingots literally hammered out at goblins from an anvil while the fighting smith shouts basic grammatical concepts at the foe.

    ...that might be more of a Gold Order thing upon reflection, but it would certainly confuse the heck out of anyone that saw it, not least the newly educated goblins.

    Parzival95 said:
    Alright, thank you, my curiosity is satisfied. If it's out of our bailiwick it's out of our bailiwick. I'd still be down to suggest it to Francesco in the future, (bare minimum basic literacy) but I can accept it's not something Mathilde should be involved in.
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    It seems like the sort of thing that, while important, isn't necessarily something we need to push ourselves. Cult of Verena, get them involved and let them do most of the pushing. (May have fun interactions with the Kitty Kult in the basement)
     
    Given the recent child discussion and since we're at or near the point Mathilde stops being an Umgi and starts being a Mathilde as far as the dwarfs are concerned: Would a kid be another Mathilde or would they still count as an Umgi?
     
    Alternatively, we could look into robbing some more Skaven, maybe some Necrarchs. Druchii if we want to get real exotic.

    The whole pregnancy thing is so inefficient, she's too busy shattering the limits of possibility. Just prep some vats and clone up some mini-Mathildes!
     
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    Parzival95 said:
    Alternatively, we could look into robbing some more Skaven, maybe some Necrarchs. Druchii if we want to get real exotic.

    The whole pregnancy thing is so inefficient, she's too busy shattering the limits of possibility. Just preps some vats and clone up some mini-Mathildes!
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    I do recall plans to kidnap a Skaven or two with magical potential and test their racial viability for not being total assholes outside of the Under-Empires self-destructive culture, but there were plenty of reasons for that to go wrong.

    EDIT: sorry, my brain just farted on what you were trying to say.
     
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