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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Either FIRST LINE: Caldera + SECOND LINE: Hold or FIRST LINE: Western Gates + SECOND LINE: Withdraw makes sense.

The first combination makes the inside of the caldera into our killing field.
They get to decide whether to die to shadow or canon.

The second combination maximizes the length of the route we can set up traps to thin them out.

I wish this was a Plan Vote...

THIRD LINE: Underway: I do not want them to recruit the trolls inside Kwyn Wyr.
 
I thank Boney for the newest update, and will now, as I am wont to do in these circumstances, cede to people who actually know what they're doing and/or enjoy thinking about battles and tactics.

I'm a grand strategist. I am not much good at planning battles. I am decent at planning campaigns and logistics. I am much, much better at planning economic long-term developments moving towards some goals.

for now, I salute you all, and shall take my leave.
 
BoneyM said:
Can we please start taking an answer for an answer instead of debating it? The illusion and the controls were built to aim Karag Nar's shadow. Fudging it to try to get the illusion useful for something else is not possible without a Grey Wizard directly controlling it to make the alterations necessary.
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It's an answer that makes no sense. If the light can hit the mountain and cast a shadow that hits the west gate, it can project light far enough to hit the citadel, which is much closer. Understanding how the light source you're moving will cause something else's shadow to change using the existing controls as they were depicted is very simple.
 
LightLan said:
THIRD LINE: Underway: I do not want them to recruit the trolls inside Kwyn Wyr.
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Feels like a moot point, since we know the trolls consider greenskins to be food, and if they occupy the mountain they have to deal with Warpgut trolls that need a new food supply, as well as the river trolls joining the fight.
 
Poor Edda :V. We should really slap together an enchanted item of MMAPing for the council, a Magic Marker if you will, so they can edit this kind of thing on the fly rather than having to work around it physically. Or we do the thing where we make the permanent holotable as a gift for Belegar, with all the editing tools built in.
 
chocolote12 said:
It's an answer that makes no sense. If the light can hit the mountain and cast a shadow that hits the west gate, it can project light far enough to hit the citadel, which is much closer. Understanding how the light source you're moving will cause something else's shadow to change is kindergartner level.
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Come on man. It's warhammer physics. Somethings are just not to be.
 
[ ] FIRST LINE: Caldera
[ ] SECOND LINE: Withdraw
[ ] THIRD LINE: Eastern Valley

Seems the best way to get at things in my opinion.

Caldera allows us to murder the most Orks possible and possibly shatter their leadership, as well as keeping whatever siege engines and heavier troops they have, slower than the line troops, be in range of the Eye. Murders them something fierce and maybe (fingers crossed) breaks their morale and disorganizes them.

Withdraw allows us to conserve forces the most as well as bleeding them. What seems to have been overlooked in most of posts I read is that the Ork groups attacking with the Caldera First Line plan, and thus after taking an Eye glare, will be finite and separated from the rest of the main force and will basically remain so because the Eye will take care of any possible reinforcement from the West Gate. What remains to do then would be to attrition them into oblivion to win. Either option works for that, but withdraw would allow a better force conservation.

And then Eastern Valley, where the attritioned and likely disorganized Orks smash against all our best advantages: the gyros, the Eye and the fortifications set up previously to repel the Trolls. Here we could also see the consequences of either previous option: If Hold, a severely depleted Ork force will clash against a severely depleted defense force. If Withdraw, a likely less depleted Ork force would clash against a fresh and at near full strength defense force. Again, withdraw seems to be the better option since it would let us have the most forces in the best conditions for us.

Would be the best path for force conservation, which would allow a possible sally against the remnants in K8P later on and maybe against the ones outside thanks to low casualties and fresh troops.

Another point to take into consideration is that we are unlikely to get reinforcements in a relevant time frame, so what we have is all that we'll likely get. Attrition against a numerically superior foe is the real killer here and should be avoided at all costs IMHO.
 
BoneyM said:
Can we please start taking an answer for an answer instead of debating it? The illusion and the controls were built to aim Karag Nar's shadow. Fudging it to try to get the illusion useful for something else is not possible without a Grey Wizard directly controlling it to make the alterations necessary.
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I think there's some miscommunicating here. I think Chocolate12 is talking aboing aiming Karag Nar's shadow the image is supposed to demonstrate how using the grey tower to move the sun shifts the shadow which IIRC you've said can be done by any one in the past?
 
Oh hey, I only noticed a bit ago that it's Kazrik saying those lines. I guess he came back on the gyrocopter we sent with the message?

Bummer I won't get to see the emotional reunion scene, but it's still nice to have him here.
 
chocolote12 said:
It's an answer that makes no sense. If the light can hit the mountain and cast a shadow that hits the west gate, it can project light far enough to hit the citadel, which is much closer. Understanding how the light source you're moving will cause something else's shadow to change using the existing controls as they were depicted is very simple.
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Word of Advice buckaroo. Don ´t argue with the person thats writing the quest when they answer you several times.
 
Cathon Grimeye said:
[ ] FIRST LINE: Caldera
[ ] SECOND LINE: Withdraw
[ ] THIRD LINE: Eastern Valley

Seems the best way to get at things in my opinion.

Caldera allows us to murder the most Orks possible and possibly shatter their leadership, as well as keeping whatever siege engines and heavier troops they have, slower than the line troops, be in range of the Eye. Murders them something fierce and maybe (fingers crossed) breaks their morale and disorganizes them.

Withdraw allows us to conserve forces the most as well as bleeding them. What seems to have been overlooked in most of posts I read is that the Ork groups attacking with the Caldera First Line plan, and thus after taking an Eye glare, will be finite and separated from the rest of the main force and will basically remain so because the Eye will take care of any possible reinforcement from the West Gate. What remains to do then would be to attrition them into oblivion to win. Either option works for that, but withdraw would allow a better force conservation.

And then Eastern Valley, where the attritioned and likely disorganized Orks smash against all our best advantages: the gyros, the Eye and the fortifications set up previously to repel the Trolls. Here we could also see the consequences of either previous option: If Hold, a severely depleted Ork force will clash against a severely depleted defense force. If Withdraw, a likely less depleted Ork force would clash against a fresh and at near full strength defense force. Again, withdraw seems to be the better option since it would let us have the most forces in the best conditions for us.

Would be the best path for force conservation, which would allow a possible sally against the remnants in K8P later on and maybe against the ones outside thanks to low casualties and fresh troops.

Another point to take into consideration is that we are unlikely to get reinforcements in a relevant time frame, so what we have is all that we'll likely get. Attrition against a numerically superior foe is the real killer here and should be avoided at all costs IMHO.
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My trouble with Caldera into Withdraw is that it might not hold them in the Caldera long enough. Some of them might make it into the mountains, without holding forces, before the Shadow Tower hits.

EDIT:
BoneyM said:
Can we please start taking an answer for an answer instead of debating it? The illusion and the controls were built to aim Karag Nar's shadow. Fudging it to try to get the illusion useful for something else is not possible without a Grey Wizard directly controlling it to make the alterations necessary.

A couple of hours.
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Yeah, so even without the Sun moving, if we can hold them in the Caldera for a few hours, the Sun will hit the Citadel naturally, and we can melt them then.
 
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pucflek said:
Word of Advice buckaroo. Don ´t argue with the person thats writing the quest when they answer you several times.
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That's only advice if every one is on the same page. The QM outright stated before that we can aim the shadow of Karag-nar with any one there's dials in place for non-grey wizards to do it. It's where the short operational life time for the tower comes from when non-grey wizards are in the driving seat.

So word of advice don't be so rude and condescending? It's not germane to good discussion.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
I think there's some miscommunicating here. I think Chocolate12 is talking aboing aiming Karag Nar's shadow the image is supposed to demonstrate how using the grey tower to move the sun shifts the shadow which IIRC you've said can be done by any one in the past?
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Yes. I'm not saying 'we can magically use the Nar flashlight to circle around the citadel', I'm saying 'if we aim the Nar shadow this way, the citadel shadow will point another way'. Knowing where the citadel shadow will point based on where we move the Nar shadow is very easy.

(That's why the ring of sunlight is based around Karag Nar, not around the citadel. The controls move the sun around Nar, but they produce more than just one shadow.)
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
As I understand it, the idea is to fall back further and further into the mountains with Withdraw, then retreat from the mountains entirely, right?

Yeah, we can't risk them settling in there where they have to be dug out. The killing field may be more costly for this battle, but I'm certain it will kill more Orcs and save more lives afterwards.
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Should be noted that after we presumably kill of the Waaaghboss, his elites and break the Orks Waaagh field by inflicting a crashing defeat with massive losses on them they will almost certainly collapse into infighting as every remaining Boss tries to claim his own mountain fortress. Especially since almost all the actually powerful Big Bosses will want to be where the fighting is thickest instead of slinking around in empty mountains where there is nothing to fight.

Taking the other mountains back will be less like the battle for Karagril and more like the one for the Hall of the Moon.
 
@chocolote12

Don't debate with the QM.

I doubt setting up the system for someone else to move the citadels shadow would work anyway - moving the sun drains a ton of power, which isn't an issue when Mathilde is at the controls but would rapidly chew through the reserves if used for more than a few seconds at a time - and while "a few seconds" is plenty of time for the primary battle mountain, an unaugmented Burning Shadows on the Citadel would need to be maintained for many minutes at a time.

So we'd be limited to the Citadel's "natural" shadow when casting Burning Shadows on it.
 
For the second line, I prefer the hold option. I remain unconvinced by arguments about withdrawing simply because traditionally it is a favored defense by people in various circumstances. We shouldn't engage in a strategy simply for the sake of using the strategy or conforming to what has worked in the real world in the past and present.

The main selling point about the Withdraw option is that it will likely not cost as much in lives to work. The problem that I have with the Withdraw argument is that we would have to clean out the orcs from the mountains, which would cost lives and take time to plan and execute. There is also the symbolism of taking and holding the Karags, and while I appreciate and understand King Belegar's willingness to give up the mountains if necessary (which we may very well have to even with the Hold Plan), I think the Dwarves under his command will be much more psychologically pumped for the Hold plan.

The Hold plan also seems to utilize our strongest assets (our artillery and our rune lords) to the best effect. By holding the orcs in place, our monumental firepower can be leveraged more effectively. Our air corps can also be used more effectively should we hold them at a location, something that will be of limited use in the Withdraw plan.

All in all, I think that our assets can be better used in the Hold plan than in the Withdraw plan.
 
Chronic said:
Should be noted that after we presumably kill of the Waaaghboss, his elites and break the Orks Waaagh field by inflicting a crashing defeat with massive losses on them they will almost certainly collapse into infighting as every remaining Boss tries to claim his own mountain fortress. Especially since almost all the actually powerful Big Bosses will want to be where the fighting is thickest instead of slinking around in empty mountains where there is nothing to fight.

Taking the other mountains back will be less like the battle for Karagril and more like the one for the Hall of the Moon.
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Considering one of the Warbosses around is Gorfang fucking Rotgut, this does not molify me in the slightest.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I doubt setting up the system for someone else to move the citadels shadow would work anyway - moving the sun drains a ton of power, which isn't an issue when Mathilde is at the controls but would rapidly chew through the reserves if used for more than a few seconds at a time - and while "a few seconds" is plenty of time for the primary battle mountain, an unaugmented Burning Shadows on the Citadel would need to be maintained for many minutes at a time.

So we'd be limited to the Citadel's "natural" shadow when casting Burning Shadows on it.
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Which would only take holding them for a few hours. That's managable, right? Karagril and the Citadel were fortified in advance, we had months on those ones. Mhornar is the iffy one, and that's what elites are for. Besigers and such.
 
Haven't caught up at all, so sorry if this's come up before, but: while we can't cover the entrances to the Wyvern Caves like for the other Karags like Yar and Zilfin... can we decide to say "Screw it!" and employ Anvils of Doom to block the entrances to the Caves? Or the tunnels connecting the Caves to Zilfin?

If we just want them blocked or caved in or destroyed, such that no orc can easily just step through the entrance?
 
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