Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Reader mode
picklepikkl said:
I think that either you have misread the update or I am misreading you. It is currently, as of the vote, several hours before dawn -- call it 3 AM. Once dawn hits, there is a minimum of one more hour before the Waaagh arrives. So we have something like four hours to prepare.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
DocMatoi said:
yeah but we definitely have more than an hour. its not dawn yet, still a few hours off. If the plan is to hold, we probably have at least 5
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I have misread. Arguing stuff up at 4 AM in the morn is probably not the best thing to do. I retract my objection.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
I don't really see the argument, our most powerful weapons are in order: Doom Tower, the 2 Anvils, the artillery, Bok?, and then dwarf/man power.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is likely the exact defense we would have done if we didn't have the eye, since it limits how many orks can go shoulder to shoulder. If we could hold the western gate, that is.
 
The only place the Orcs can actually hide from our murdershadow aboveground is within reach of our ludicrous concentration of artillery.

The dwarves won't have a lot of time to reinforce Karagril and Karag Mhonar, but they shouldn't need that much either - collapsing the entrances shouldn't be that difficult, and getting back in would require hours of excavation while under constant bombardment of pre-sighted artillery.

Plus Bok will utterly wreck anyone who gets into Mhonar anyway. Karagril is the important one - as people have mentioned, if we lose it, the orcs get an uninterrupted supply line.
 
picklepikkl said:
I just realized something else exciting about the Hold option: we can sight in our artillery ahead of time. No need to muck around with ranging shots when we know exactly where the enemy force will be.

Yeah, OK, I'm feeling good about this. Even greenskin morale isn't perfect; only so many can fight to enter Karagril and Karag Mhonar at a time, and all their buddies behind them are going to be getting chewed up by artillery and archers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Mmm, a bunch of Orcs not being able to get krumpin' because there are too many of them, and being chewed up by our firepower? Yeah, that sounds like a fairly good way at hitting Greenskins in the morale in this situation.

torac said:
Of course I'd also give priority to the leaders. If Gorfang or what he was called is in the line of fire, then I'd try to fry him.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We can't snipe with this, you know. No point to trying either. If he's in the shadow, he's in the shadow, the damage isn't diffused among the masses.
 
if it takes them ten minutes to get from the western gate to the citadel that makes the distance between western gate and citadel less than 4km. That would make it Karak 8 hills.
 
DocMatoi said:
if mathilde dies there will be epilogue/flashback will writing turns
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes, i know.
I'm just thinking about how Mat should deal with the issue of EIC.
It's a very useful, and potentially extremely dangerous, tool.
And not making sure it remains under a very, very careful watch all the time feels like very irresponsible.
 
Vocalend said:
Priority Zero is in effect still. We need to ensure the smallest amount of Dwarven lives lost — and the option to Withdraw is just that, ensuring such a thing.

Also Karagril wasn't that bloody. Every part including the mercs acquited themselves well, with Mathilde being the usual force multiplier in completely capping the leadership and destroying cohesion. And yes, it'll cost blood but we can always trade in the practically infinite gold for human blood instead.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The battle of Karagril was pretty bad, all to recover one peak - not even the entire mountain.
Now consider that we would have to recover at least 4 - because if you give up Mhonar and Karagril for the defense-in-depth, we lose access to Yar and Zilfin so they are lost too.
That's already 4 battle of Karagril, but actually make it worse because contrarilly to the battle of Karagril where the orcs were isolated and in a civil war, those orcs would be directly linked to Karak Drazh. That mean that any mountain we attack can get reinforced from 3 other mountains, plus an entire lost Hold worth of greenskins.
I guarantee you, any blood saved by giving up ground we would repay a hundred time to retake it.
 
Last edited:
Pempelune said:
Karagril was pretty bad, all to recover one peak - not even the entire mountain.
Now consider that we would have to recover at least 4 - because if you give up Mhonar and Karagril for the defense-in-depth, we lose access to Yar and Zilfin so they are lost too.
That's already 4 battle of Karagril, but actually make it worse because contrarilly to the battle of Karagril where the orcs were isolated and in a civil war, those orcs would be drectly linked to Karak Drazh. That mean that any moutain we attack can get reinforced from 3 other mountains, plus an entire lost Hold worth of greenskins.
I guarantee you, any blood saved by giving up ground we would repay a hundred time to retake it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

i'm entirely agreed on this. The outer defences have to be held once they've infiltrated we'll lose far more lives than save by withdrawing and then having to retake them. Also if they can't break in then they're going to get hit a lot harder by the magic shadow effect and once the main battle is over Mathilde and a large squad will be capable of working in concert to hammer and anvil the remaining pockets.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
if it takes them ten minutes to get from the western gate to the citadel that makes the distance between western gate and citadel less than 4km. That would make it Karak 8 hills.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Boney confirmed a while back that it was 2km between West Gate and Citadel.
EVA-Saiyajin said:
Mmm, a bunch of Orcs not being able to get krumpin' because there are too many of them, and being chewed up by our firepower? Yeah, that sounds like a fairly good way at hitting Greenskins in the morale in this situation.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Let's assume the frontage of both Mhonar and Karagril's aboveground entrances fits 100 orcs abreast. That seems like an overestimate, but we're assuming here. If the idea is to hold them, that limits the active number of orcs that can fight on either front to a couple of hundred at a time -- sure, there's always another one to step forward when his mate dies, but at the same time we're blasting the backlines that can't get in the fight with artillery and air support.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
if it takes them ten minutes to get from the western gate to the citadel that makes the distance between western gate and citadel less than 4km. That would make it Karak 8 hills.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The mountains are very steep. Theres a reason the west and east gates are considered the only way in.
 
chocolote12 said:
I could work that out, though, and I've got the mental faculties of a wilted cabbage...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
To expound upon this, so that it doesn't sound unreasonable or anything, this diagram, which covers what I think we're talking about here, took me a few seconds to come up with in my mind. Drawing it was harder because I'm not good with paint.



Are we talking about something other than this?
 
As I understand it, the idea is to fall back further and further into the mountains with Withdraw, then retreat from the mountains entirely, right?

Yeah, we can't risk them settling in there where they have to be dug out. The killing field may be more costly for this battle, but I'm certain it will kill more Orcs and save more lives afterwards.
 
I think the optimal plans here are:

[ ] Plan Melt Everything and killzone them:
-[ ] FIRST LINE: Caldera
-[ ] SECOND LINE: Hold
-[ ] THIRD LINE: Eastern Valley

The trouble with the other Third Line is that it gives up Karagril, and thus gives up the tunnel. So they can get reinforcements.

I think we kill them in the Caldera, telling everyone to hold them there. Then hold them with Arty and Two Anvils of Doom and the Golem, while Mat gets to the Citadel. Since if they are attacking at dawn/before noon the citadel shadow will fall on them anyway. When does the Sun hit the Citadel anyway @BoneyM ? How much after dawn?

Could we arrange for someone to move the Sun up a bit(nothing really precise) just so it hits the citadel, so we can hit the stuff besieging it when we ask?

Idea here is we melt the Caldera, We melt the core under the citadel and hold the rest. With their core gone, arty starts pounding them in the back, and so do all the archers who were busy before it.

[ ]Plan Lose the will to fight:
-[ ] FIRST LINE: Western Gates
-[ ] SECOND LINE: Withdraw
-[ ] THIRD LINE: Underway

This is the "Every step of the way, you will spill no blood, and here, have a way home."

By the time they hit the third line, they'll be pissed and frustrated, having taken horrendous loses for nothing. And it will be fortified like nothing else, with that much heavy fire and so small a front. Elites excel there. This is the delay, assassinate and cause mayhem route.

Main issue with plan two is they have 800k snotlings. They can eat traps for days.
 
Last edited:
Btw, didn't register the first read through, but hi Kazrik, glad you could make it back. Did he come with the gyrocopter when it was returning from Karaz-A-Karak?
 
SuperSonicSound said:
if it takes them ten minutes to get from the western gate to the citadel that makes the distance between western gate and citadel less than 4km. That would make it Karak 8 hills.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Boney admits that distances are fudged for the purpose of storytelling, use whatever mental image suits you in this case, maybe they're just sprinting really damn fast, or maybe the mountains are clustered
Or just ignore the 10 minute estimation if it suits you and stretch it out to 30-40 minutes when you read it
 
Pempelune said:
The battle of Karagril was pretty bad, all to recover one peak - not even the entire mountain.
Now consider that we would have to recover at least 4 - because if you give up Mhonar and Karagril for the defense-in-depth, we lose access to Yar and Zilfin so they are lost too.
That's already 4 battle of Karagril, but actually make it worse because contrarilly to the battle of Karagril where the orcs were isolated and in a civil war, those orcs would be directly linked to Karak Drazh. That mean that any mountain we attack can get reinforced from 3 other mountains, plus an entire lost Hold worth of greenskins.
I guarantee you, any blood saved by giving up ground we would repay a hundred time to retake it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
While I vaguely disagree with this--we were also attacking fortified, if scattered positions, and the number of orcs likely to be a problem will probably be less by the point we actually want to take them back--It does seem like holding the line will still give us a much better killing field, and Dwarves are much better at holding chokepoints than trying to lay traps.
 
chocolote12 said:
To expound upon this, so that it doesn't sound unreasonable or anything, this diagram, which covers what I think we're talking about here, took me a few seconds to come up with in my mind. Drawing it was harder because I'm not good with paint.



Are we talking about something other than this?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


Can we please start taking an answer for an answer instead of debating it? The illusion and the controls were built to aim Karag Nar's shadow. Fudging it to try to get the illusion useful for something else is not possible without a Grey Wizard directly controlling it to make the alterations necessary.

primemountain said:
When does the Sun hit the Citadel anyway @BoneyM ? How much after dawn?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

A couple of hours.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top