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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Garlak said:
Haven't caught up at all, so sorry if this's come up before, but: while we can't cover the entrances to the Wyvern Caves like for the other Karags like Yar and Zilfin... can we decide to say "Screw it!" and employ Anvils of Doom to block the entrances to the Caves? Or the tunnels connecting the Caves to Zilfin?

If we just want them blocked or caved in or destroyed, such that no orc can easily just step through the entrance?
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Too big. It's essentially a lesser peak full of caves.
 
chocolote12 said:
Are we talking about something other than this?
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Kinda?

Boney has mentioned that the Eye can cast quite widely near the end of it's effective range (such as by being able to cover 2 of the Yar/Zilfin/Rhyn entrances at once, a distance which is presumably wider than Karag Nar), which implies that the sun-moving part tries to have the sun shine in such a way as to effectively be a point source quite close to the mountain. Getting it to act as though the sun is shining from a far out position such that there's no parallax between the Eye's shadow and the Citadel's is tricky enough that I imagine it's not included by default.

Sort of the magical doom tower equivalent of not having had your artillery be pre-sighted, which is admittedly an oversight but not an implausible one (it would only benefit Mathilde in a relatively small subset of cases compared to the general cases relevant for the Eye) that probably can't be rectified in a mere 4 hours.
 
chocolote12 said:
Yes. I'm not saying 'we can magically use the Nar flashlight to circle around the citadel', I'm saying 'if we aim the Nar shadow this way, the citadel shadow will point another way'. Knowing where the citadel shadow will point based on where we move the Nar shadow is very easy.

(That's why the ring of sunlight is based around Karag Nar, not around the citadel. The controls move the sun around Nar, but they produce more than just one shadow.)
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Ehhhh, not necessarily. Putting aside the fact you're debating with the GM, which enough people have pointed out, what you're forgetting is that we're not actually moving the sun, we're just moving the sun in relation to Karag Nar. The Citadel and its shadow should be completely unaffected besides wher it intersects with Nar's shadow.
 
BoneyM said:
You raise a hand in greeting as you enter and accept a flask of something that burns going down from Princess Edda and peer around the table, and are glad to see the rest of the Council plus King Kazador, Kragg, and Thorek. King Kazador has apparently set up a horse relay in the Underway between Karak Azul and Eight Peaks, which has seen little use but has just shown its worth in returning Dreng and Prince Gotri from Karak Azul overnight and only slightly battered for the experience
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Ooh that's good that we have our entire Martial council here.

BoneyM said:
"Here's where we're at," King Belegar says, waving a hand up at the MAP still floating above the table, which is now supplemented by what looks like a number of coloured balls hanging from the ceiling from string.
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BoneyM said:
You furrow your brow and concentrate, and then a wave of your hand alters the MAP accordingly, and Princess Edda gives a sigh of relief as she climbs up atop the table to start removing the balls.
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Lol, making that enchanted MAP room should happen eventually. Hopefully one that can be modified in limited ways. Kinda silly to see the Stewardess of the Keep climbing into a table to setup balls and string though.

BoneyM said:
Or we could prepare fallback positions, traps, explosives, and all sorts of other ugly surprises throughout the entire mountains, make every step cost them in blood while barely exposing our own forces to them.

"You can't just give up Karags to-" Princess Edda begins.

"We'll retake them once the fight has gone out of them, but as much as they're needed for long-term defences, we don't need them now," King Belegar says firmly. "We live in two mountains and we could make it one without stepping on each other's toes. If taking those mountains bleeds the Waaagh of bodies and motivation, there's no reason not to consider it." Nobody looks pleased at that, but eventually there's nods all around as they see the sense in it.
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This dispels a minor fear I had, I didn't want Belegar to become Hyper Belegar and take away the aspects I like about him. I find Belegar super compelling, his ability to break away from Dwarven tradition to do the right thing for his people, no matter how much it hurts him. His recognition of the cultural anchors that do little but weaken the Dwarven race out of misplaced shame. His willingness to fight with lies and retreat.

Slightly nervous those would go away, but he is simultaneously completely willing to employ these tactics and unashamed to do so. This is Belegar the end of his self-doubt mini arc, and he is nothing but better and stronger.

BoneyM said:
"Twenty to one," Prince Kazrik says darkly, and all eyes turn to the wall, where a dagger driven with supernatural strength has pinned the High King's missive to the wall for all to see.
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I guess Kazrick took a gyrocopter here? Regardless, Thorgrim is going to have some very grumpy dwarves in his throne room soon.

I suppose Grombrindal will reveal himself at maximum drama.
 
chocolote12 said:
It's an answer that makes no sense. If the light can hit the mountain and cast a shadow that hits the west gate, it can project light far enough to hit the citadel, which is much closer. Understanding how the light source you're moving will cause something else's shadow to change using the existing controls as they were depicted is very simple.
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SuperSonicSound said:
I think there's some miscommunicating here. I think Chocolate12 is talking aboing aiming Karag Nar's shadow the image is supposed to demonstrate how using the grey tower to move the sun shifts the shadow which IIRC you've said can be done by any one in the past?
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The illusion does not actually literally move the sun for the purposes of the entire world. It moves it for the sake of the sunlight within a relatively narrow cone, because the larger an area an illusion affects, the more power it requires. Using this to 'fire' the Citadel westwards is possible because that is within the narrow cone of the illusion's intended effect. Using to have an affect in a completely different direction than where the shadow is pointing is not possible, because if it was the illusion would be burning obscene amounts of power pointlessly every time it was used as intended.
 
our original plan for the weaponized portion of the Grey Tower consisted of a 360-degree view, a revolving chair for you to sit in, and nothing else. Now that it can operate without a Grey Wizard providing the fine control, you've had to expand that somewhat, and a control console has been built on a moving track around the perimeter of the room, featuring three levers, three switches, and one large, intimidating button. The honour of first activation goes to King Kazador, for his contributions to the Karak in general and for the steel that made it possible to work in the Rune of Gazul in particular, and you walk him through the process step by step, doing your best to ignore the curious stares of King Belegar and the Council behind you.

"Blue Lever, Red Lever, Grey Lever. Blue Lever clears the weather. It's already clear, so we set it to 'off'." Chunk. "Red Lever provides light. Suns out, so we don't need it. Off." Chunk. "Grey Lever lets us aim. The shadow's not currently pointing at the Eastern Approach, so we set it to 'on'." Chunk, and a clack-clack as the bolts holding the console in place release, and with a gentle touch it starts moving along the metal track that rings the room. You surrender control of it to King Kazador, and he rolls it right with enthusiasm until it lines up with the half-dozen Broken Toof Orcs that Dreng's Rangers had captured for this purpose, who wriggled fruitlessly against the ropes holding them immobile. "Line up the mark on the top of the console with the line on the window. That aims it - there's a dial for inputting a compass position manually, but this is easier. Flip the 'Direction' switch when that's ready."

"What about angle?" he asks, peering with one eye along the mark.

"That's next. Got it?" He nods, and flips the switch, and another clack-clack signals that the console is once more locked in place. "Second is angle, which gives us our range. You could eyeball it, but we're a fixed point here, so the work's all been done in advance." You take a folded map from the small nook in the side of the console. "Pick a landmark - mountain or milestone - and we'll have the top of the shadow line up with it, or parallel to it if it's off-center."

He peers down the mark once more. "Fifth mountain on the right. With the arete on the right and the scree right in the middle of the base."
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Read this and tell me it's not Mathilde having Kazador run through working the controls for the tower.

Ultimately the GM can do what ever he want's he in the driving seat and if he wants to change how the tower works that's fine. But it's certainly not the understanding I had previously and Mathilde clearly isn't channelling here.


BoneyM said:
The illusion does not actually literally move the sun for the purposes of the entire world. It moves it for the sake of the sunlight within a relatively narrow cone, because the larger an area an illusion affects, the more power it requires. Using this to 'fire' the Citadel westwards is possible because that is within the narrow cone of the illusion's intended effect. Using to have an affect in a completely different direction than where the shadow is pointing is not possible, because if it was the illusion would be burning obscene amounts of power pointlessly every time it was used as intended.
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Fair enough I don't think that was the point though? I'll leave that to Chocolate to discuss though.

I'll admit to not really getting what the disagreement is here but I'll chalk that up to tiredness and just head to bed.
 
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Garlak said:
Haven't caught up at all, so sorry if this's come up before, but: while we can't cover the entrances to the Wyvern Caves like for the other Karags like Yar and Zilfin... can we decide to say "Screw it!" and employ Anvils of Doom to block the entrances to the Caves? Or the tunnels connecting the Caves to Zilfin?

If we just want them blocked or caved in or destroyed, such that no orc can easily just step through the entrance?
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We really don't want this waagh scattering to try and find an entrance though. Then all of these greenskins will get scattered all over K8P various tiny entrances drawing out the fighting into a much larger area and making it even more bloody.

We sort of want a big clash because then we can kill the vast majority of them with our doom tower.
 
I think the issue is that the illusion of the sun moving is only local to Karag Nar, and so ither won't affect the shadow of the citadel, or will affect it weirdly. @BoneyM, if we have post-dawn time and the waaagh comes late, could we presight the citadel shadow, so others could use presets while we cast from the citadel?
 
primemountain said:
My trouble with Caldera into Withdraw is that it might not hold them in the Caldera long enough. Some of them might make it into the mountains, without holding forces, before the Shadow Tower hits.
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And the wave that will do it will have no further reinforcements and be cut off from their reserves and logistics train, meaning they will have less punch and ability to take advantage of a breach, to be finally crushed against the third line of defense after being attritioned (again no reinforcements).

Moreover, the ones you are worried about breaking in first will be the fastest, meaning the less well-armored and well-armed and likely the ones considered cannon fodder by the bigger Boyz. I'm personally not that worried about them going through dwarven fortifications and, even if they manage it, to be able to be an overwhelming threat to the Third Line.

I'm liking the fact that there are no Gobbos here to muddy things up.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Mhonar is the iffy one, yes. Hopefully Bok can make up for a lot of the difference.
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Ok, then I think we're all (or most) agreed.
[ ] Plan Melt Everything and killzone them:
-[ ] FIRST LINE: Caldera
-[ ] SECOND LINE: Hold
-[ ] THIRD LINE: Eastern Valley

Kills everything, but has the weakness we need to hold Mhornar with elites and Bok for long enough to kill them all. And it will take several hours for the Citadel Shadow to be a thing we can use to melt their core. And it will cost lives, no if's or buts to hold it all.

[ ]Plan Lose the will to fight:
-[ ] FIRST LINE: Western Gates
-[ ] SECOND LINE: Withdraw
-[ ] THIRD LINE: Underway

attacks the Orc moral, but has the weakness that they have 800k of snotlings to soak all the damage, and so they might not be discouraged at all. It also doesn't cost us lives until the end, but it cedes the other mountains.

Everyone agree what our options, advantages and weaknesses are?

EDIT: Also, just occured: The Crown might suffer if the Greenskins reclaim so many peaks. So that might fuck with moral of the dwarves and the magic around here in plan two.
 
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Abhorsen said:
I think the issue is that the illusion of the sun moving is only local to Karag Nar, and so ither won't affect the shadow of the citadel, or will affect it weirdly. @BoneyM, if we have post-dawn time and the waaagh comes late, could we presight the citadel shadow, so others could use presets while we cast from the citadel?
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I imagine most of what pre-sighting the mountain would do has already been done? There was a whole booklet of angle measurements in the side compartment, remember.
 
I notice that Edda's calculations suggest it should take at least 6 hours or so for the full WAAAGH to enter K8P. Good thing Mathilde slept! She's going to be busy for a long time.
 
@BoneyM as bad as it sounds is it possible to pull a Van Hellsing if the dwarves are about to be overrun and raise the dead? (Note I don't want to do this but I find it preferable to have the choice in the face of all the dwarves dying)
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Fair enough I don't think that was the point though? I'll leave that to Chocolate to discuss though.

I'll admit to not really getting what the disagreement is here but I'll chalk that up to tiredness and just head to bed.
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I'm not trying to drag you into the debate, but to clear up the misunderstanding as far as I can tell, Chocolate is assuming that moving the sun would affect other shadows than Karag Nar's, because, you know, that's how physics work. That's a fair enough point, but what he's forgetting is that the magic doesn't work on physical laws, and we're not actually moving the sun, just creating a localized illusion of it for Karag Nar alone, and anything outside that illusion remains the same.
 
BioWolf said:
@BoneyM as bad as it sounds is it possible to pull a Van Hellsing if the dwarves are about to be overrun and raise the dead? (Note I don't want to do this but I find it preferable to have the choice in the face of all the dwarves dying)
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We possess the ability to cast necromancy spells. The dwarves would most certainly not appreciate us demonstrating this.
 
BoneyM said:
No. The manual controls do not have a way to control the scope of the illusion.
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Sorry if I'm being stupid does this mean that if the sun is literally 180 degrees out from where we want to lay a burning shadow down that we literally can't?


Ericwinter said:
I'm not trying to drag you into the debate, but to clear up the misunderstanding as far as I can tell, Chocolate is assuming that moving the sun would affect other shadows than Karag Nar's, because, you know, that's how physics work. That's a fair enough point, but what he's forgetting is that the magic doesn't work on physical laws, and we're not actually moving the sun, just creating a localized illusion of it for Karag Nar alone, and anything outside that illusion remains the same.
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If that's the case I really haven't been following this discussion at all, so yea I'm going to get some sleep exhausted me is clearly stupid.
 
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