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There's a lot of stuff in here that's basically just wrong. No, necromancy isn't chaos Adjacent. It was devised explicitly to get the hell away from chaos, and death. You can argue about its success at that but it's not remotely chaos adjacent. Dhar might be used by chaos lores but they're actually divine magic traditions that use dhar for a power boost.

The stuff I want to study isn't at all a violation of the articles of magic, not that it matters we're already reading the Liber Mortis. So put me down as a hard nope, that argument is irrelevant. Moving backwards to the idea that books are stolen from Nehekara if that's the case why hasn't this place already been knocked down by the tomb kings. Were they trackable in that way it would have already been done.

Also once again I need to point out we have the wind sage trait if the books were enchanted in some way we'd be able to easily tell. Powerful spells like you're suggesting would be obvious.
Well, technically you could argue they might have spells on them and they've just been concealed (similar to the Eshin thing), but at that point you start to move from reasonable caution and into the territory of outright paranoia and assuming the GM is actively trying to kill us. At which point we should also start preparing for BoneyM to drop a flight of Bloodthirsters into our lap.
 
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A Grandmaster. The Magister Patriarch/Matriarch would be The Grandmaster.
If a Patriarch/Matriarch is the Grandmaster, what is the Supreme Patriarch/Matriarch? Something more akin to a King/Queen?

Also, is it possible to know what the favor cost might be to found a College in K8P? Or would something like that need some specific event or actions? And is it even possible?
 
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If a Patriarch/Matriarch is the Grandmaster, what is the Supreme Patriarch/Matriarch? Something more akin to a King/Queen?

There's no direct equivalent. In Dwarf society, there's no intermediate step between the Grandmaster of a Guild and the King of the Karak.

Also, is it posaible to know what the favor cost might be to found a College in K8P? Or would something like that need some specific event or actions? And is it even possible?

Possible. Hochland has a College. It would take Great Deeds to do it. Which is the name of the new currency it looks like you'll be getting from this turn.
 
If a Patriarch/Matriarch is the Grandmaster, what is the Supreme Patriarch/Matriarch? Something more akin to a King/Queen?

Also, is it posaible to know what the favor cost might be to found a College in K8P? Or would something like that need some specific event or actions? And is it even possible?
To found a new College we need to master a spell lore outside of usual eight: i.e. necromancy or theurgy.
 
I'm assuming the rolls to determine how max does on the stirland purge papers will be done alongside our own paper writing efforts next post, right?

Also; will we be able to inform him of what we learned in the multi crit observation spree?

Edit: I'm interested to see if the serenity tower gives any bonii to paper writing rolls themselves, or if they solely 'pay' for the free paper, (in which case, shouldn't Max be getting them, since he doesn't get a free paper?)
 
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Its definitely some kind of unusual structure. I'd hesitate to actually call it matter at all like a sword or ore or such. It was never real to begin with and its unreality is fighting with reality after crossing the Snake Bridge. This is also in large part why I think and suppose it wouldn't give a single wit about pressure or temperature changes since its not actually real enough for those to matter.

Well, degenerate matter in that its easier to visualize how the Winds interact as pseudomatter than whatever they really are.

Previous experience had convinced me that mystery boxes were catnip for questers. The learning process truly never ends.

Its mostly missing the forest for the trees to be honest.
Voting priority almost invariably is based on:
1) Utility to allegiance. Community/organization > Friends > Self > Allies

SV in general is extremely loyal to their parent organization. In Divided Loyalties this factor led to the whole debate last vote where the debate revolved around whether it was better to be loyal to our present primary employer's best interests as we see it, his orders as he said it, what our friend would want, what our deceased friend would want, whether we could harm the cause, etc.

2) Timeline of benefit. Long term tends to win over short term, even when you REALLY need a short term win right now.

3) Uniqueness of benefit. If something is unique or at least very rare, it has an immediate interest in it. If something is likely to be achievable later its less likely to win even if its good.

4) Costs incurred. Costs particularly is balanced against resource scarcity. Note that costs are weighed more lightly at quest start than significantly into a quest, players at chapter 1 are more than twice as willing to gamble everything than players at chapter 3. And at Chapter 100 they're no longer willing to spend anything at all.

Risk and mystery are perpendicular metrics, because they work by gambling items of the above.
Its easier to illustrate here than to explain:

[ ] Dragonbone.
-Utility to allegiance: Unknown(Low to Medium). While there is some talk of what Kragg might be able to do with dragonbone, there is very little actual plan here.
-Timeline of benefit: Long. It'd give out results late, if ever, but the results are expected to last our entire career if we ever get around to figuring out what. Snake box timescale expected
-Uniqueness of benefit: Middling. There is an expectation of being able to find dragonbone later, deliberately if we actually want to, though it won't be easy.
-Costs incurred: Time costs when we're permanently in a time crunch.

[ ] Gold and jewels.
-Utility to allegiance: Minor. Not to our boss, not to ourselves.
-Timeline of benefit: Short term
-Uniqueness of benefit: Common.
-Costs incurred: None

[ ] Proof of the 'College of Necromancy'.
-Utility to allegiance: High. It directly furthers Belegar's orders to show the flag by amplifying the importance of what she achieved by his command. It directly furthers OUR benefit, and it might further the Colleges' ability to detect future such attempts.
-Timeline of benefit: Long. It would have a long lasting effect and be a good story to boot.
-Uniqueness of benefit: Unique. Impossible to acquire the like deliberately.
-Costs incurred: None

[ ] Detailed trade ledgers.
-Utility to allegiance: Originally this was Unknown(Low to High), however the clarification made this immediately Medium, then boosted by utility to the EIC, Stirland, Roswita and Wilhelmina, to High
-Timeline of benefit: Medium. It isn't the sort of thing to actually cause a permanent sea change, but it has immediate impact and is unlikely to just stop impacting.
-Uniqueness of benefit: Low. We already have mechanism to obtain similar benefits.
-Costs incurred: None expected.

[ ] Books on Necromancy and the Undead.
-Utility to allegiance: Unknown(Zero to High), may be of utility to College, boosting it up a step.
-Timeline of benefit: Long
-Uniqueness of benefit: Low. We already have a great book, so unless it explicitly rivals the Liber Mortis its not going to be a factor.
-Costs incurred: Unknown(Medium to High). It is unknown how many actions would be involved, but it is likely to generate at least one research topic unless its useless(in which case its useless).

[ ] Books on Vampires and Dhar.
-Utility to allegiance: Unknown(Zero to High), may be of utility to College, boosting it up a step.
-Timeline of benefit: Long
-Uniqueness of benefit: High. Its not impossible to get by other means but this is probably the most potent vampire researcher we could expect to encounter for a long while.
-Costs incurred: Unknown(Medium to High). It is unknown how many actions would be involved, but it is likely to generate at least one research topic unless its useless(in which case its useless).

[ ] Books on Shyish and death gods.
-Utility to allegiance: Unknown(Zero to High), may be of utility to College, boosting it up a step.
-Timeline of benefit: Long
-Uniqueness of benefit: Medium. Shyish lore is available from the College, and Death Lore is available from the cults. We just need to find someone willing to talk about cult secrets.
-Costs incurred: Unknown(Medium to High). It is unknown how many actions would be involved, but it is likely to generate at least one research topic unless its useless(in which case its useless).

As you can see the mystery in this case resolved strongly in favor of the Ledgers, which would normally have a debate focused around how big an impact they can have(and whether famously reclusive Necrarches trade, and whether any other vampires are involved), and thus bring their full allegiance benefits to bear by invoking all our allies that would be confirmed to benefit AND by stretching a bit, to extend the benefits to the whole Empire.

This along with an anticipated zero future cost, put it into a decisive lead.
Basically as soon as the Ledgers can be confirmed to be of significant utility, Benefits Five Allies/Organizations versus Benefits Mathilde And Colleges is likely going to win.

You'd need to establish very high uniqueness /rarity values in the others to even compete.
As an OOC note, I've tried researching abiotic hydrocarbon formation but as far as I can tell it's a spillover battlefield from creationist debates and Soviet science and I can't find reliable answers. Any local chemistry buffs able to weigh in?
I think the main crux factor for creating significant hydrocarbon reserves should be when the Slaan literally rearranged the map, and possibly whatever Old One tectonic rearrangement would have each instantaneously stored vast amounts of energy as it caused extinction events on anything not a magically powered apex predator.

That has to have quite literally crushed massive amounts of forests(and associated denizens) into coal and other fossil materials, as well as trapping and compressing a lot of miscelleny together.

However, I don't think it'd make recognizable coal exactly, and since the land reshaping was artificially done theres just plain not going to be any predictable way to prospect for them.

Practically speaking the future is in magic.
Like, the dwarves already have runes to create heat, the Bright College has the ability to make a given fire last a year without additional fuel without a whole lot of effort invested per fire.
Everything you need to develop industrial technologies on an artisanal level exists, and some of these can already generate enough conventional energy to operate, but not recursively expand, at industrialization levels, if you can only get these elite artisans to repetitively perform a task rather than focus on high prestige projects.


I wouldn't be surprised if the elves, with their high level of general magic availability, are effectively industrialized already. It'd certainly explain how they can simply mobilize so hard and remain functioning as a society.
 
I'm assuming the rolls to determine how max does on the stirland purge papers will be done alongside our own paper writing efforts next post, right?

Also; will we be able to inform him of what we learned in the multi crit observation spree?

Any results not explicitly shown in Part 1 will be in future updates.

The information you've gathered has no relevance to the Purge Papers.
 
There's no direct equivalent. In Dwarf society, there's no intermediate step between the Grandmaster of a Guild and the King of the Karak.



Possible. Hochland has a College. It would take Great Deeds to do it. Which is the name of the new currency it looks like you'll be getting from this turn.
That's actually pretty cool. I imagine you can exchange them for Favors, but not the other way around?
 
They're high high above us on sheer mountains, they got given climbing gear, supplies and training, but they've fallen off and broken their backs.

We've been given none of those advantages, and we frequently fall off, but we get back up, heal up and start hauling ourselves up fast again.

Hmm...

One could argue that humanity did go through a golden age just like the elder races did. Nehekhara was certainly impressive to the point where it spawned two entirely different traditions of necromancy.

For the matter the eastern human civilisations are mystery boxes but they seem to be rather strong. Eshin learned their arts there for example.

Ultimately the old world humanity seems to be sort of a backwater... but one that is slowly getting better since Magnus the Pious, which is in stark contrast with the decaying glories found everywhere else.
 
We're gonna need a lot more wizards...

And we're gonna need to steal some runeshit.
We can steal the skavenshit then bribe the dwarves into helping us design it together, so they can't claim intellectual property like they do runes.

For what it is worth, while Nehekhara is a faction you absolutely cannot steal shit from, you also absolutely can trade with them.
I legit have no idea how the dwarves would react to non-hostile undead... hell! Maybe they could help with the silver peak and we can get their help with finding karak zorn?

Six to get a Master Engineer to take a crack at it, ten to get someone along the lines of the Grandmaster Engineer of Zhufbar to do so. Getting the Empire to cooperate sold separately.
... worth a shot, especially if we can power he things with powerstones.

hmmm...

If we end up getting a lot of favour again I'm actually considering going to bat for this.
Seconded. For Science! For Quyash-vial Jezzails!
 
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What would qualify as a Great Deed, from the imperial perspective?

Killing Necromancer College seems to be insufficient; do we need to straight up save the empire on the brink of destruction, or?..
 
If you want get the Dwarves and the 'good' (aka Nagash resistant) undead working together, better call Anton because that diplo 10 sucks.

After the quest ends in the epilogue it's revealed Anton was a incarnation of Tzeentch doing a 'just as planned' against Tzeentch.
 
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Is it though?

We don't know what the reward is going to be but getting Mathilde's name out there for massive contributions that also simultaneously brings into forefront Mathilde's contribution to the K8P Expedition (since why else would Belegar hire the first court wizard to ever grace a Karak and ask Kragg the Grim to forge the next best thing to a Runefang?) seems fairly valuable.

It can certainly net significant College reputation at least.

Compared to the rest, yes, I think so.

The Bone could result in a powerful artefact, advance Mat's knowledge of enchantments and the research get College favors. The mystery boxes result in magical developments and inspire papers that would rack College favors for multiple turns. Compared to them, the Proof seems a bit underwhelming.

If we were in Altdorf most of the time or if K8P was more linked to the Empire, you would be right and the Proof would be much, much more valuable, but the diplomacy advisor has only the barest of understanding of Reikspiel and knowledge of humans, so whatever benefits of political goodwill between the 2 would be diminished and the Empire isn't likely to throw resources at K8P in the near future without someone asking. Since Boney has described it as a "backpat voucher", I wouldn't expect miracles from it but I'm always open to good surprises.

The advantage that the Proof has, from my perspective, is that it has one of the best action/reward ratio of all the options since most of the rest demand an investment of actions.

IMO, the reputation boost from the Proof would likely only help to get to the Lord Magister rank faster and serve as a PR boost to get mercs and adventurers, maybe help Anton in his recruitment and would probably help in future diplomatic forays with the Empire. College Favors? Likely, but the amount isn't necessarily more than what the rest of the actions could produce and wouldn't include the other material benefits. Any kind of potential "Empire favors" though are only hypothetical at the moment, since there was no sign of such a mechanic existing, unless I missed a WoG.

But, again, regarding the action/reward ratio, I think it is an excellent option and, on its own, a rep boost isn't at all meaningless. Besides, if Boney put it up as a reward, it's likely to result in something good either way.

I don't necessarly disagree with you but i'll still point out that one of those free non-research options supports a ongoing action sink that has nothing to do with wizardry (the EIC and the 'let's get rid of the merchant traitors' one), to the point several questers stated motivation was 'let's turn the EIC more powerful and get empire favour at the same time'. A mechanic that doesn't exist yet btw (or maybe never).

Well, the EIC action is already here and is here to stay, so there is no point in not making it rack up more benefits while we're at it. As for the "Empire favors", as I mentioned above, I'll believe in them when I see them.
 
What would qualify as a Great Deed, from the imperial perspective?

Killing Necromancer College seems to be insufficient; do we need to straight up save the empire on the brink of destruction, or?..

Either destroying a threat that would have otherwise required a mobilization of the majority of the Empire's military might, or acting in such a way that you significantly contributed to the victory of a campaign of that scale.
 
I legit have no idea how the dwarves would react to non-hostile undead... hell! Maybe they could help with the silver peak and we can get their help with finding karak zorn?
Same problems as with spooder frens writ large, I'd expect, additionally complicated by Tomb Kingly pride.

With a strong emphasis that Tomb King considers their state to be cursed and something to transcend, some dialogue could be initiated, with saner ones. Also need a dwarf friend to vouch for whatever Tomb King you desire to initiate dialogue with.

Optimistically. Pessimistically, they are unquiet dead that should be put to rest, and that is that.
 
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On the topic of the vote: I honestly thought that three different mystery boxes and the components of future artefacts would utterly demolish a voucher for Imperial back-pats and a merchant hit-list. I won't always get it right and not every vote will turn into a down-to-the-wire knife-fight. And while it's possible that the explanations tipped the votes, it's equally possible that people are choosing patriotism and influence over forbidden knowledge and a kicking rad dragon skull.

I'd recommend you simply frame the information based on Mathilde's IC knowledge. She's experienced with knocking over evil trade organizations, so she can easily tell the value of the Ledgers, but she only has time to glance over the piles of Dark Magic books and can't tell which ones are truly valuable or not. One choice is IC a known quantity while the other is a mystery box. With limited time to take inventory, you'd no more clarify the exact value of the books than you'd give Mathilde the exact count in gold coins of the treasure pile.

Besides that, keep in mind that the discussion's loudest voices are the ones trying to change the impossibly massive lead the winning vote has. If you don't split the vote tally by line, then there are 171 voters voting exclusively for Proof + Ledgers. The next most common vote block only has a mere 15 voters. Whatever possible flaws in the vote format you may or may not have made, (and I don't think you made any,) there's a silent majority here far larger than everyone currently participating in discussion. With this vote having a record-breaking 308 voters, I'd like to think that the crowd isn't passing over things like a near-complete dragon skeleton casually.
 
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So, my feelings on this.

Dragonbone? You want to make a legendary Wizard Staff? This is--quite literally--the perfect material. Especially since we looted it from a Necrarch Vampire Lord's personal lair, so it's not going to be some scrub-ass baby dragon that's actually killable from normal conditions. We're probably looking at Star Dragon+ level quality here, and that's going to allow for a hell of a lot of nice toys on our casting stick, and our sword is such that we can instantly pivot from casting to murderface if need be.

We're not just a warrior, we're a wizard first--and this is a rare opportunity to get a staff that's worthy of being part of a Legendary Lord's panoply. Dragons are pretty much the most magically potent lifeform that exists in the Warhammer Fantasy setting, and an ancient one (That would be something said Vampire Lord would care about keeping in his position to get it right as opposed to just reanimating it or incorporating it into some kitbashed monstrosity) is more ferocious still.

This is something you can only chance upon, never seek out.

Compared to that, the ledgers are just a 'Nice to have' thing. Cutting some heads might scare people, but the EIC is already a juggernaut that's devouring these dudes alive. The 'Proof' of the College of Necromancy means that our operation and intent (To show the flag) was an overpowering success, which is another step closer to Wizard Lord and the ultimate secrets of our Lore.

We're still ramping up, and we're playing in the big leagues now--let's take the rewards from this that'll best facilitate our continual escalation.

[X] Dragonbone.
[X] Proof of the 'College of Necromancy'.
 
Same problems as with spooder frens writ large, I'd expect, additionally complicated by Tomb Kingly pride.
Oh, and that is on the dwarf-tomb kings level. On Mathilde-some individual Tomb Noble/Liche Priest level, everything depends on the context. Some of them might not be entirely averse to a degree of cooperation if it further their goals; Khatep specifically is probably pretty desperate by now to fulfill his oath.
 
That while yes the Dwarves and the Elves are the elder races now it won't always be the case that we are their junior. Both sides got a massive boost thanks to their age, and being given innate advantages compared to humans, but Teclis thinks that we'll look behind the glamour and judge the elves as they deserve to be judged and frankly they do deserve to be judged harshly.

Who is going to be doing that judgement? The illiterate peasants that make up most of humanity's population. As long as industrialization does not happen (we we were just finished discussing why that is very difficult) humans will not be judging any history older than garbled village legends.
 
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Dragonbone? You want to make a legendary Wizard Staff? This is--quite literally--the perfect material. Especially since we looted it from a Necrarch Vampire Lord's personal lair, so it's not going to be some scrub-ass baby dragon that's actually killable from normal conditions. We're probably looking at Star Dragon+ level quality here, and that's going to allow for a hell of a lot of nice toys on our casting stick, and our sword is such that we can instantly pivot from casting to murderface if need be.

You've persuaded me about the merits of a Dragonbones when you phrase it like this.

Changing my vote, even though it's a symbolic gesture at this juncture:

[X] Dragonbone.
[X] Proof of the 'College of Necromancy'.
[X] Books on Shyish and death gods.
 
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There's a lot of stuff in here that's basically just wrong. No, necromancy isn't chaos Adjacent. It was devised explicitly to get the hell away from chaos, and death. You can argue about its success at that but it's not remotely chaos adjacent. Dhar might be used by chaos lores but they're actually divine magic traditions that use dhar for a power boost.

The stuff I want to study isn't at all a violation of the articles of magic, not that it matters we're already reading the Liber Mortis. So put me down as a hard nope, that argument is irrelevant. Moving backwards to the idea that books are stolen from Nehekara if that's the case why hasn't this place already been knocked down by the tomb kings. Were they trackable in that way it would have already been done.

Also once again I need to point out we have the wind sage trait if the books were enchanted in some way we'd be able to easily tell. Powerful spells like you're suggesting would be obvious.
You're asking me to repeat the same point a third time. Please listen to me when I do.

Spiteful. Vampire. Mage. Lord. I've told you multiple times he could have enchanted the books himself to alert Nekhara, as a final act of spite.

Or has a mortal servant that will tell Nekhara where their rare, secret books are, and point them at us. Windsage will not help with this. In this case, he is the one who hid the books, with his centuries of immortality and magic and time, and would be using us taking them for vengeance.

You keep saying definitive things. Like so: "Also once again I need to point out we have the wind sage trait if the books were enchanted in some way we'd be able to easily tell. Powerful spells like you're suggesting would be obvious."
Rather than :Citation Needed: you, I'll to this.

I'll lob this one straight to the QM. @BoneyM: Mat's a Grey mage, and an Enchanter. Can she think of a way to enchant something in a way it wouldn't be obvious to her own magesight that it is enchanted? And could a thing so enchanted, be dangerous to her?

EDIT: And as for the Articles of Magic. That is literally the Slippery slope argument. I've broken the rules once, one way, in one circumstance, so I might as well break them again and again, right? No.
 
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