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Putting aside for the moment my previously mentioned distrust of Dhar and any achievements resulting from it. Nagash used to be human and used the power of dhar to transform himself into something more. Nagash did not do so by becoming a vampire. A vampire is a lesser existence than Nagash. In xianxia terms, the problem with vampires is that they have flimsy foundations. They transform into a state that no longer transforms. Throwaway the advantage of humanity for a small boost in power. In the longer term, there is little prospect of them being anything more than a vampire who is a little more skilled. They have hit a bottleneck in power they cannot progress through.

So the fear of old age may be a good enough reason to pursue becoming a vampire as a last resort. That does not make it a first resort, it would be better to end up a vampire by actually inventing the longevity ritual yourself. It would be better still to find a way past the Dhar induced limitations of vampirism to produce a longevity ritual that does not rely on Dhar at all.

Yeah but to do that you still have to do a bunch of experimenting that everyone is too afraid to do.

No one is willing to take the first step.

Experiment with multiple winds! Twist the nature of life!

Delve deep and give the laws of nature the middle finger!
 
I mean, wizards, provided they don ´t get shanked or explode, tend to live longer than humans iirc. Significantly so, even? Or at least, i am pretty sure some of them did.
 
I mean, wizards, provided they don ´t get shanked or explode, tend to live longer than humans iirc. Significantly so, even? Or at least, i am pretty sure some of them did.
One made herself immortal by huffing the dust of a dead death god :)

And yes in general powerful wizards do tend to live longer than human life spans.
 
As an OOC note, I've tried researching abiotic hydrocarbon formation but as far as I can tell it's a spillover battlefield from creationist debates and Soviet science and I can't find reliable answers. Any local chemistry buffs able to weigh in?




looking into abiotic is probably a dead end. The main issue with this method if you're going to need heat and pressure and whilst the dwarves can definitely pull off the first via rune enchantment I'm skeptical of pressure, but if they have methods for pressure cooking and understand enough about chemistry it's not entirely impossible they'd be able to use a method like this.

The bigger issue is that the lack of crude oil means they probably have no reason to want to make crude to break down into other products. For real humanity this process is also probably a dead end due to EIEO being awful, for the dwarves able to use magic as a free resource it'd be a way for them to essentially convert biomatter into highly refined fuels.
 
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Specifically Bright magic and Rune smithing.

Which means Magi-steampunk, which is fully in theme with Warhammer.

Anything the bright order can do runesmiths could do better tbh, that said there's probably a lot more room for bright order mages to experiment and god knows the drive for passion that the wind gives can easily be expressed via wanting to research engineering and other such things.
 
Yeah, you posted two "shiny trinkets", three "mystery boxes", and two "systemic change" options, explained the value of the last two, and it's a vote where two options can be taken.

Not sure if raising eyebrows in Altdorf and significantly boosting Mathilde's reputation is more of a 'systematic change' option rather than a really shiny trinket option.

The impression it gives is that it is good for us politically but not a huge game changer otherwise. Likewise the deal with the merchant's option specifically mentions benefits for the EIC.
 
Anything the bright order can do runesmiths could do better tbh, that said there's probably a lot more room for bright order mages to experiment and god knows the drive for passion that the wind gives can easily be expressed via wanting to research engineering and other such things.
Goldies also can be quite good for engineering and bruteforcing advancements that would come normally.
 
Not sure if raising eyebrows in Altdorf and significantly boosting Mathilde's reputation is more of a 'systematic change' option rather than a really shiny trinket option.

The impression it gives is that it is good for us politically but not a huge game changer otherwise. Likewise the deal with the merchant's option specifically mentions benefits for the EIC.

Just have to really really hope that the Liber Mortis has some notes and details about Nehekaran theurgy it probably doesn't but can only hope as we're passing up the biggest chance to directly get those notes right now. :<


Human's can't do runes and really should not be relying on the dwarves for everything.

So... Bright wizard's and Gold wizards need to start working with engineers.


Human mages have their own rune enchanting system, it's not remotely as good as the dwarven system but it exists and probably can be used to try and create magi-tech. The bigger issue is that there just aren't enough human wizards for this to be viable, for magitech to be a game changer it requires there be enough people to maintain. expand and run all of the stuff to make more of it and there aren't enough wizards in the empire for this. Never mind in just the two or three branchs which would be predisposed.
 
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On the Mystery box debate:

I think that's sort of missing the point. All those long posts, or general thread ideas based solely on the Mystery box fenomenom. This is Warhammer, and the boxes aren't total Mystery, they are labeled.

The thread was more than willing to go after a rare trait that might never come again, when it had clear implications within the setting. The same is true with the books. They have clear implications, and those implications have risks to them. Risks that don't seem worth the rewards this time, compared to other options.

This thread likes to gamble(the catnip mentioned) but they like to weight and stack the odds first. Both the rewards and the failures.

If your reward is ultra rare book, and the failure is Soul Stealing Attempt, or Summon Setra! for there are Thieves here!, then that gets weighed.

The thing here is that taking books on Dark Magic from a Dark Magic Vampire is up there in stupid and gratuitous ways to lose your soul or doom your home in character. Famously so. Traps are likely, and while Mat has the gear to play bomb squad, with the other things on offer...well. Why would she?

It's not just the differences between safe choice or gamble, its what the gamble is. What can you win, and what can you lose?

See, previous update. Gambled with Mat's life and soul, won a dead Vampire Lord and his College of Necromancy. And that gamble was made knowing what Vamp line the enemy was from, with some idea what he could do, with extra scouting beforehand. Knowing what gear and spells Mat had.

Yes, this thread likes to gamble. But it also likes to stack the odds. Give them a risky gamble with high gain, but likely loss with losing either the thing, or even more, and a clear, certain, lesser win, and they'll pick the sensible option.
 
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Previous experience had convinced me that mystery boxes were catnip for questers. The learning process truly never ends.
And you're right. The 'problem' is that you've succeeded in cultivating a Grey Magister's 'Empire First' mindset throughout the thread that you'd get questers to, for a wonder, not pick the shiny boxes. Well, that's the first problem. The second is that in Mathilde's capacity as Court Wizard, mystery boxes and weird shenanigans are our job... not counting the other shinies in our disposal like the snake juice or Avatar-theurgy line of inquiry.

Having only the first would have probably turn this to a more...intense voting cycle. But having the second meant well, 140 votes difference on the 'most competitive' shiny option.
 
So what I'm getting from all this... Is that its magic or bust for humanity then?
Hey, just because IRL industrialisation used coal doesn't mean they can't try another solution!

Skaven know the best one, yes-yes!

More seriously, it's theoretically possible to use the magic to build the tools to skip further. Go full solar-powered or something! Or rely on water and wind power even more than IRL to set up factories, etc. Coal is great because you can transport it (and at the time they couldn't transport or store wind or water power stations), but it definitely isn't the only way to make things work.
 
mmm theoretically we could get to electricity by figuring out renwable energy sources.
More seriously, it's theoretically possible to use the magic to build the tools to skip further. Go full solar-powered or something! Or rely on water and wind power even more than IRL to set up factories, etc. Coal is great because you can transport it (and at the time they couldn't transport or store wind or water power stations), but it definitely isn't the only way to make things work.
Yeah pretty much.

We have the ideas for engines, electcity is the next step.

I'd ask if the world has radioactive materials, but well...mmm...

@BoneyM
From either our books on warpstone or geography (probably stretching, but well I was taught geology in geography) or just asking dworfs would we know about rocks which are not like warp stone, but are still dangerous (cause radioactivity).
 
Wiping out the gribblies in the Empire's woods and producing charcoal on an astounding scale would also work, but considering said gribblies, magic might be easier.
Honestly how I expect the Empire's industrialization to go is that Wizards become more common as more survive to training, and magic gets used more. As magic gets used more, it gets used to clear cut and clear the forests of gribblies and as a side effect the Empire can produce more and more charcoal every year.

As they can produce more charcoal, more means to use it come up and the knock on societal benefits from people having more consistent heating start to occur and people advance their technology to use this abundant fuel. From there farming benefits both from magic and the abundant fuel allowing basic fueled farming devices will allow for more food and more people to survive because they have enough to eat. More people means more magic users means more clear cut forest.

Repeat until stable state is reached and the Empire is changed.
 
This is beyond silly. No that's not actually a threat from this library.
Nechrarch. Vampire. Lord. The same reason some people are arguing there might be Nekhara theurgy lore here, is the same reason the fucker might have soul traps in here, as well as spiteful Fuck You, I'm Calling Nekhara Alarms.

You cannot both argue it might have Nekharan't knowledge, and not be a risk of calling down Nekhara upon you. Just having them risks that. Having a spiteful mage lord having them before you just means he might broadcast it to fuck you when you open them wrong.
 
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Anyway's snake juice!

Anyone wanna try to figure out how to make more of it?

Or how to use it to create our own magitech?

Seriously? why the fuck aren't the humies industrializing? this was the i win button for humans IRL!

Fuck nature, it's produces naught but beast men and orcs anyway! Burn it all and replace it magical gun factories!
Johann is on it. And as soon as we have Kragg look at the snake stuff, I am in favor of showing it to Johann as well.
Literally every arms race quest ever.
I don't know any. Are you willing to point me at the best ones, ongoing or not, off the top of your head?
There is no coal and oil. Dwarfish steam engines run on alcohol and charcoal.
How did dwarves manage before losing most of their population?
Well, the bright college can turn water into fuel, and just cut out the middleman and create endless sources of heat, so that sounds like a partnership waiting to happen.
That's well and good, but I don't think there are near enough Bright apprentices/journeymen willing to do that to get anywhere near national industrialization levels.
 
[X] Proof of the 'College of Necromancy'.
[X] Detailed trade ledgers.

One of Mathilde's greatest strengths is that now everybody owes her favors; piling some more of those up within the Empire sounds good to me!
 
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