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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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chocolote12 said:
Aqshy and Shyish already have lower end lightsaber spells.
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Death and reading passion are both strongly associated with battlefield weapons. That's *why* those spells are lower end for them; expecting to be able to swap in a new wind and get the same effects is exactly what I'm throwing shade at. We need to treat magic as being as complicated as we've been shown it is.

AsuraAtlas said:
The Grey College is notably lacking in combat spells, especially at the casual level.
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Which seems to be a straightforward consequence of being the wind of deception and uncertainty rather than the wind of 'everything dies if you burn it enough' or 'just death, actually'.

If there is a major gap in the spellbook that the elves were unable to fill, despite trying to create as many low-skill combat wizards as possible, then we should assume there are reasons for the gap.

It feels like "a plausible line of research" is being read as "yes, you can do that".

AsuraAtlas said:
It's one of two things I'm ride or die for in the foreseeable future.
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Same. I just want us to treat it as the difficult puzzle it is rather than 'just slap 2 AP on it and start making plans to recruit trainees'.
 
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Rafin said:
How do purely Elven myths/books describe this, if they do describe this at all?
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Probably the same way it got originally brought up, in vague detail:

Boney said:
The next came from a devotee of Kurnous, a God that has been demoted from the upper echelon of the Eonir pantheon, and says that they have uncovered a myth completely unknown to the Elves - one you quickly recognize as that of Taal's Victory, where Taal's battle with a great dragon carved out the Talabec and formed the crater of the Taalbaston, but told with a lot more characterization to the being only identified as 'Ancient Wyrm' in most Taalite tellings. They speak of the Great Dragon they believe to be Abraxas with respect but not reverence, as according to Elven legend he betrayed his first master for one of the Cytharai, then Them for Isha, then finally abandoned Isha, Ulthuan, and the knowledge of Elven historians. This teller identifies the service of Rhya as Abraxas' final destination, and speaks of Kurnous pursuing and violently chastising Abraxas for his disloyalty to Kurnous' wife, but in doing so encountering Rhya for the first time and falling victim to the same charms that had snared the Dragon. Under the name Taal, this Forestborn says, Kurnous rules over a forest at least ten times larger than that of Chrace, and they believe that a deeper communion with Kurnous is possible there than anywhere within Laurelorn.
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"Abraxas I'm gonna fucking kill you for running away from my wife to another woooooooooman... Say lady, are you available?"
 
Glau said:
It feels like "a plausible line of research" is being read as "yes, you can do that".

Same. I just want us to treat it as the difficult puzzle it is rather than 'just slap 2 AP on it and start making plans to recruit trainees'.
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I was just talking about how attractive the option is to me. I made no comment on relative chances, because to be frank we have next to no information on chances. We could absolutely end up with something fiendishly complex or fail entirely! This is magical research in a dice based quest.

But I still feel like you're being a tad pessimistic:

Glau said:
If there is a major gap in the spellbook that the elves were unable to fill, despite trying to create as many low-skill combat wizards as possible, then we should assume there are reasons for the gap.
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Why would the Elves know combat Ulgu spells? What reason would they invent them? Like you said, Ulgu is the wind of deception and ambiguity. If an Elf ever wanted a direct combat spell, they have half a dozen other winds to turn to before they try to fit that square peg into a round hole.

You're absolutely right on Ulgu not being suited for direct combat means the spell would be harder, and likely the reason a spell like it hasn't been invented yet. But then, Ulgu might not be suited to direct combat, but Mathilde is. I doubt there's been many Grey Wizards in close to as good an opportunity to try this. She's spent decades as a swordswoman, she knows swords down to her soul. She rolled lucky and got a melee weapon mastery that ignores armor, already half of the battle done. She has all her experience and position and supporting items. And if Boney says it's a plausible line of research, then that means Mathilde thinks it's a plausible line of research, which I think says a lot.

I'm not saying it would be easy, or moderately difficult, or even that it's doable. I'm saying I don't know. I'm saying, like you, I really want to take the action to find out.
 
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We could try but short of rolling multiple boxcars (which is admittedly entirely possible given that Ranald is in fact real) I don't think we're going to plausibly make a spell that mimics a masterwork of Kragg the Grim especially as anything less than battle magic. Most Grey Wizards don't need swords anyway, codifying Shadow Dagger would be more than enough stabbing power for the purposes of the majority of Grey Wizards.
 
I think we are all largely on the same page, I just feel like I'm getting excited about a possible approach and y'all are saying 'woah, slow down, we don't need to care let's just throw some dice at it'.

It's like quote-replying to tell me my points aren't worth engaging with, without actually disagreeing about anything and I'm trying not to be frustrated about it.
 
Glau said:
I think we are all largely on the same page, I just feel like I'm getting excited about a possible approach and y'all are saying 'woah, slow down, we don't need to care let's just throw some dice at it'.

It's like quote-replying to tell me my points aren't worth engaging with, without actually disagreeing about anything and I'm trying not to be frustrated about it.
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Sorry! I read your post as picking at my post despite agreeing with it, so kind of confused I tried to engage with it that way, but looking back a few pages you were actually reinforcing an earlier post of yours I didn't see. We were talking past each other, and I totally see how the way I responded could be frustrating.
 
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Oh, thank you for looking! I'm glad to know it really is just a misunderstanding, that is a much nicer feeling.
 
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I would be satisfied with merely being able to replicate enough that we can pass on our sword style, honestly. Anything beyond that feels extremely pie-in-the-sky and while I don't mind fantasizing every so often, there is such a thing as going too far.

Like, Mopman has it right: let's codify Shadow Sword first and then see if we can modify it enough to make it compatible with the Rune of the Unknown. One step at a time.
 
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RwconHD said:
I think codifying existing masteries is just a far less convoluted approach to helping our college and apprentice.
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I agree for the forseeable future at the very least. Too many irons in the fire and all that. Aethyric Armour would certainly be interesting but based off what was stated when it was taught to Eike.
"It being based purely on your own personal relationship with Ulgu."

This feels like it might be a bigger job than simply putting pen to paper. With that stated though, the blessed hands seems both doable and relatively simple. It should also have relatively quick payoffs, something along the lines of us as masters of Ulgu being as much part of fog, mist and shadows as the true items.

being able to make any weapon magical on demand seems like a boon for near any wizard, much less a journeyman. For reasoning I just point to the fact Boney has repeatedly stated we have gotten really lucky with the magic rolls.
 
Rafin said:
How do purely Elven myths/books describe this, if they do describe this at all?
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The Asur perspective (assuming that's what you meant) is that neither Abraxas nor Radixashen have been seen since getting in the middle of some sort of marital dispute between Kurnous and Isha over who got primacy over the Old World's forests in the era where the Elves were colonizing it. They don't place much importance on it, Asur consider the goings-on of non-Caledorian Dragons to be more zoology than sociology. In the few places that Rhya is mentioned at all, it's usually just a line saying that Kurnous and Isha are worshipped as Taal and Rhya in the Empire.
 
We don't have to replicate all of the rune of the unknown to start making a shadow sword spell applicable to our style - just being able to turn it off and back on again means it can do guard bypass since our shadow sword ignores armor. If we can't codify the part where it ignores armor though, guard bypass becomes less a trump card and more a parlor trick.

So that's the lowest hanging fruit. Hand switching seems most reasonable to achieve after that - literal sleight of hand and all.

Momentum dump though... yeah, I don't see how ulgu, the existing spell, or our traits and masteries make that happen straightforwardly. If the shadow sword is really light that's not as much of a loss as it otherwise would be, at least.
 
I think codifying Shadow Dagger is more than enough on this line. Researching a spell plus codifying it is two actions at least, codifying is but 1 AP.

I don't think it's plausible to except a Shadow Sword spell to start off at anything that isn't Fiendishly Complex. Shadow Dagger is Fiendishly Complex.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
Momentum dump though... yeah, I don't see how ulgu, the existing spell, or our traits and masteries make that happen straightforwardly. If the shadow sword is really light that's not as much of a loss as it otherwise would be, at least.
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That's the theoretical Okham's Mindrazor part, where it hits as hard as your willpower not based on how hard you swing it.
 
Boney said:
When a name is given, it's usually Ereth Khial or Manann or Eldrazor.
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I wonder why those three specifically. Sea, fighting, the evil death Goddess. I don't really see a theme here.
...wait.
mathymancer said:
According to a recently uncovered Eonir myth, Abraxas used to serve one of the Cytharai, and then Isha, and then he left Ulthuan. If that Cytharai was Mathlann, God of the sea, then maybe Drivot got things mixed up because of that, thinking Abraxas was an elf God because of his associations with Ulthuan and that he was a god of the sea because of his service to Mathlann. According to the same Eonir myth, Abraxas left across the sea to serve Rhya. Archives of Empire III tells a story about Rhya having two handmaidens named Vidagg and Rigga. Perhaps Abraxas took Rigg with him, and she too ended up in the service of Rhya?
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Article:
The Amazons worship their own gods and Rigg is the patron goddess of warfare, blood, Koka and Violent Death.

perchance? :thonk::thonk::thonk:
 
Alratan said:
That's the theoretical Okham's Mindrazor part, where it hits as hard as your willpower not based on how hard you swing it.
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I believe Boney's commented before that Okkam's Mindrazor works because it's thematically working with the shared morale of a group.

I'm not sure single-target OM is viable to begin with. Let alone somehow combining it with everything else.
 
Searching through the forum, the idea of a single target Occam's Mindrazor has been brought up and shot down quite a few times.

E: You know, looking at the spellbooks made me wonder. There are fiendishly complex spells that disturb the Aethyr and all wizards in a 5 mile radius can feel the casting. But not all Winds have them - Ghur, Ghyran, Ulgu and Chamon lack them. What kind of Fiendishly Complex Ulgu spells could one design and cast that have a 'everyone in miles can feel this being cast' side effect?
 
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Andres said:
Ah, so Rigg is Myrmidia.
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What, just because it's a female warrior Goddess? I guess it's possible, but it doesn't feel like that strong a connection, and I doubt most followers of Myrmidia would say She is a Goddess of 'violent death' and blood. Otoh Archives of Empire III does have a warrior Goddess called 'Cailledh, the Goddess of Rage' and scholars do assume that She might have been an earlier version of Myrmidia, so you can always assume that Myrmidia changed...

...hold on. Alongside Cailledh, Archives of Empire III lists four other 'lost Gods' of the Old Faith, the last of which is a nameless God of death that rules a 'watery otherworld' that serves as the afterlife. Water and the afterlife, that's Mathlann and Ereth Khial right there. But that's probably a concidence, as there's no connection to Eldrazor, Lord of Blades.

...the principal God of the Ostagoths was a nameless death God. The former territory of the Ostagoths is now Ostermark. The coat of arms of Ostermark is a dragon holding a blade.
perchance??? :thonk::thonk::thonk:
 
Andres said:
Ah, so Rigg is Myrmidia.
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That description doesn't really sound much at all like Myrmidia. Putting aside that it wasn't until within Sigmar's lifetime that she even gained domains relating to warfare like soldiering and strategy, she's not all that much about violent deaths. Core to her being is art, beauty, personal honour via conduct and civilization.

The closest equivalent that comes to mind that has anything to do with Myrmidia is her earliest recorded Venerated Soul Fury, who is explicitly noted as having abandoned her previous name to die killing all the world's evils (much to Myrmidia's grief).
 
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Andres said:
Wasn't that Morr? From my memories of the Harry Potter crossover quest, Morr had an older name that's long been forgotten. Plus Ostermark is the number 1 province of Morr worship.
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My understanding is that the Classical Pantheon had Morr, while the Northern Pantheon had its own death god, but the two syncretized over time and the name of the Northern one was forgotten.
 
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