Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Greece
I guess it can allow for some elephantine strategies, fair. Assuming its not BM tier.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm pretty sure that's not canon to the quest, regardless of source.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oh. Uhh, okay, lemme try an info post about them.
First and most important, the use cases:
- Emergency response. If some event happens that produces a shitload of Dhar somewhere, we can deploy waystone boats there. If demons are invading, we can reinforce the front with extra magic absorption to pressure them. If something damages the network, there well could be no faster way to maintain service than to sail a ship with a stone on it there.
- High defensibility. If a hostile power is actively targeting waystone infrastructure, waystone boats are alone in the ability to retreat to a fortified location - and likewise, only need to be defended when they are deployed. The risk of waystone defense being defeated in detail is radically lower when you can just choose to only deploy when and where you can ensure the stones will be safe, and then withdraw them to fortified positions before it becomes dangerous.
- Triage. While we're still building out the network, waystone boats can be moved to the places that most need dhar gone now, and then all moved to the next place that needs it most once the immediate issue is dealt with, where other models can't be relocated after installation.
- This means we can add more waystone capacity to a location than it needs long-term without slowing down our build-out of the network - because that capacity can just be moved when it's no longer needed.
- Cost??? We can almost certainly make this the cheapest model of waystone to produce without compromising the above use cases, while relying on mostly untapped and more widely available forms of labor. The cost of the spirit pacts, however, are an unknown. More detail on that later.
- Boney has confirmed the waystone boat/barge concept as something we can attempt - it's not theorretically impossible, and the waystones would be operational while the boat travels.
- While in the applicable body of water, one pact with a spirit covers all waystones of this design, or of any other design with spirit transmission.
- Spirit transmission as we've designed it implies that energy will be carried in the direction the water flows.
- Magic and Dhar carried by the spirit does not pollute the river/body itself in the process of being transmitted. It effectively teleports along the river to the end where it's dropped off into the rest of the network, or failing that into the sea '''where it will never bother anyone ever again'''.
- Per our first design action, the spirit transmission component is trivial, but the cost of the river spirit deals are unknown, and likely to vary from place to place.
- Short term or ongoing cost deals might be used, but that's speculation on my part.
- No cites on this, but as a waystone boat/barge would be an actively maintained and manned piece of equipment, we could use a clockwork foundation. as winding and maintaining that could in turn be just another part of inspections/service for the vessel as a whole.
- This also means we could make it almost entirely out of karaz-ankor sourced components by choosing a Runic Inductor capstone, and either Runic Storage or No Storage. It goes without saying that Dawi can be relied upon to keep the pacts, and if the spirits know that they may get a better price for them too.
- I think with Spirit transmission, "no storage" won't impact performance, you'd just have to turn the stone off when not in an area covered by a pact. Nobody's checked with Boney, but if provided storage, I believe you could absorb winds when in a non-pact area and then discharge once you've reached a spirit you have dealings with.
- So, a choice between a cost savings or better ability to operate with low river spirit pact coverage.
- A storage model would become more appealing if the cost of long-term spirit pacts makes wide coverage unpalatable.
- Depending on who can make those pacts and how long they take to make, storage could also allow even faster crisis response by permitting absorption to begin while the pact is still pending.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
It's also explicitly called as maybe being bullshit (either that the ritual doesn't actually exist or doesn't actually work, I don't remember which).
Speaking of the Cult of Ulric, there is a thought I've had recently: could it be that there is more to their Teutogen supremcism then just tribalism?
After all Teutogens stopped being an independent political entity 2491 years ago and while ethnical indentity would have lasted longer, over 2,5 millenia it would have been replaced by niddenlander/middenheimer identy.
Furthermore there were good reasons for them to abandon such ways, in particular during Age of 3 Emperors and especially after their exile from Middenheim. Yet the tribalism persevered.
Why is that? Well, one of the possible answers comes from the implications of the quote below:
What if some of Ulrican rites have similar or even stricter conditions? What if some of their rituals are strictly limited in area, power or scale or do not work at all unless the caster is of Teutogen lineage? Combine that with imperfect understanding of ritual conditions, and cult secrecy and those requirements could easily provide the reason for tribalism and the cult's reluctance to abandon it.
After all Teutogens stopped being an independent political entity 2491 years ago and while ethnical indentity would have lasted longer, over 2,5 millenia it would have been replaced by niddenlander/middenheimer identy.
Furthermore there were good reasons for them to abandon such ways, in particular during Age of 3 Emperors and especially after their exile from Middenheim. Yet the tribalism persevered.
Why is that? Well, one of the possible answers comes from the implications of the quote below:
These are the requirements of Halethan tributary ritual. And they mean that for the ritual to work outside of a relatively small area of the world the caster must be a specific tribal bloodline.
What if some of Ulrican rites have similar or even stricter conditions? What if some of their rituals are strictly limited in area, power or scale or do not work at all unless the caster is of Teutogen lineage? Combine that with imperfect understanding of ritual conditions, and cult secrecy and those requirements could easily provide the reason for tribalism and the cult's reluctance to abandon it.
Part of the issue was explained when we looked into the Nordland/Middenland conflict. Ulric was essentially transplanted to the major god of the region. Part of the struggle of acceptance on Nordlands part of the Eonir most likely stems from this, they gave up the old ways for Ulric and he drops them like a hot potato? Granted it's had to acknowledge change but it is there.
The main issue is the religious, economical and political realities are all enmeshed in this world. Nordland wasn't an original province, They have Norscan blood in them, economically they are reliant on either mining or forestry with the Sea of Claws being so dominated by the Norscans. The political reality then was shattered by the time of the Three Emperors and religion is intrinsically tied to it. In essence you had a converted populace displace their former neighbors and fundamentally shift the orientation of the province.
As to the second point about the ritual it's all about protectionism. There has never been a non-teutogen Ar-Ulric, the split from him by the winter wolves and the very careful not-split between Middenland and Nordland. The Teutogen's are the chosen of Ulric, suggesting pre-existing population.
It might be cult secrets but it also might be a reflection of the Aethyr. Ulric was strong and chose to expand into Nordland, now the Ar-Ulric chose to communicate with the Eonir, Nordlands enemy (rightfully or not doesn't matter at this level, what do gods care about the little people?) and order some members to kill the gods followers to make room for the new ones. Now a religious schism is tied to political realities, which is tied to economical realities. If we wanted to follow the Godly trends discussed Ulric appears to be changing his angle of expansion but in doing so weakens his hold over Nordland. Perhaps that firebrand Priestess we heard about will suddenly speak about how Ulric abandoned her, the gods of her Ancestors Haletha shall guide Nordland away from the treacherous Tuetogens and their evil Elven Allies...
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Ulric hasn't abandoned them though. They have a problem with the cult leadership, not with the god. The two aren't the same thing, and Nordland almost certainly view the cult's leadership as failing Ulric, rather than Ulric failing them.
Quite true, yet Ulric is aloof, he is demanding. To qoute Hubert without hunting it down.
"The Ar-Ulric" The supposedly was very loudly not said. "Speaks for Ulric." The issue that Ulric is running into is he is deliberately removed from the world, a one step away kind of deal and acts through his cult nearly exclusively. The Grand Lector of Sigmar has two subordinates who can fight him on stuff, they don't even necessarily vote together in Elections. The other faiths are more... diffused? There are multiple voices that weigh in on issues.
Ulric only speaks through one person. Due to this the cult is centralized in a way the others are not, more than centralized, they are brought in line to main-stream thinking.
If Ulric ends up communicating with the Nordlanders that opens up a whole new can of worms, why now, why did you let supposed followers of you kill us. Why?
Then get into the political ramifications, now Nordlanders have someone in theoretical equal standing to Ar-Ulric, what does that make him? What if they found their own order and say they speak for Ulric now? War would be the only option for the Ar-Ulric. Essentially when someone doesn't act, someone else does and to be frank I don't know if Ulric could keep his followers in Nordland without loosing his aloofness. Too many hard disagreements with the Ar-Ulric and his proclamations over the centuries.
Too many disparate groups are drawing the line in the sand with the Ar-Ulric. The die is cast, let if fall where it may.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Right, except the Cult of Ulric isn't centralised. the Ar-Ulric speaks for Ulric to the same degree the Grand Theogonist speaks for Sigmar. He's not unopposed, it's just that his subordinates don't hold elector votes, or necessarily official ranks dictating them as such, due to the nature of the Cult (which soemwhat disagrees with laid out heirarchies). Like, the idea that the Ar-Ulric speaks for Ulric is a point of doctrine, not one of reality. He's the Ulric pope. Doesn't mean he can do whatever he wants, and it doesn't mean that if someone else claimed to speak to Ulric it would inevitably shatter the Cult.
I think it's accurate to say that Ulric is among the more centralized cults of the empire, and so saying that it isn't centralised is wrong. The cult is centralised. But that isn't a binary state, and it certainly isn't so centralised that there's no internal faction or disagreements, or that the boss can just ignore the opinions of the underlings. No human organization has ever been that centralized.
If the internal division is too strong, there will and is be conflict. Maybe one side comes out victorious and eliminates/integrates the other side (peacefully or not). Or maybe the cult splits, someone declares himself Ar-Ulric and survives long enough to become accepted as such, and then the cult of Ulric will be a lot less unified, though still a whole lot more than Ranald's or Shallya or Verena. And maybe at some point the two sides unify again and there's only one Ar-Ulric. Organizations are flexible like that.
Except when it does. The Anti-pope, The Protestant reformation, Jesus to the Jewish faith, dozens of different Caliphs in Islamic faith.
I mean hell Swiss mercenaries were so valuable that both sides of the Religious debate pretty much said, "we hate each other and will kill each other. But if your Swiss don't follow these rules."
It seems like you are equating real-world politics to this situation. Ignoring the obvious pitfalls with real world religious feelings. This is a fantasy world where gods regularly perform visible miracles, where to speak for a god is to speak with their authority.
I mean think about the Sacred Flame of Ulric, it will not burn non-believers and it didn't burn Magnus. That let him reverse laws put down, it let him lay down the Articles of Magic. What if a Nordlander gets in there and walks through the flames? We know no-one is allowed to do so by the cult, It let Magnus shout the Ar-Ulric of the time down! You think if someone who lost 3 brothers and his mother to the Eonir managing to walk through wouldn't instantly say "They are not true believers, every follower of Ulric shall answer my call and march into the forest?"
Splits have happened and will continue to happen in every religion that whether through tradition or law one group comes to dominate it. (I mean half of the Anti-pope mess was political and the other half was, hey all the popes have been Spanish or Italian for a while... we are Catholic too!)
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Yes, but that's my point. The split is fundamentally political, and doesn't reflect a loss of faith in Ulric in Nordland, but a belief that the Ar-Ulric is putting Middenland concerns over Ulrican ones.
It is a fundamentally political split that is reinforced by a religious schism. It's not so much a loss of faith in the being itself but in it's institutions, kind of similar to the Old and New testaments. Yet again, this is a world where the gods regularly perform miracles and no one is quite sure how they shape up against each-other. Is it a reflection of their prominence on the planet? Is it their own personal power? Their domains?
Ulric is in a way handicapped in how he deals with this, too much of his "presence" is invested in Middenheim for another center of faith to rise without some level of conflict. Then you add that the Ulricans in Nordland are not tuetogens but Jutonian adds a whole layer to this conflict on top of political and religious, now its familial.
Remember Juton's didn't just appear in a vacuum, they came back from Middenland with Ulric. I have to imagine to conquer your homeland in the name of a new god (if we go off of the seeming relationships of gods and mortals) Some type of promise was made by either the Ar-Ulric or Ulric himself. Now those tensions are right back at the surface with the Eonir situation.
About 100 different nothings are now boiling over and they all need a decision. If the Eonir conversion is genuine they are coreligionists, would you follow a god that supports a population that destroyed your province (economically seeing as they were reliant on Forestry and Mining). Throw on top the Ar-Ulric who is supposed to back the pack is now saying they are part of it? There is just too much tension from political decisions that effect religion (the ban on Female Priestesses) and religious decisions that sent the baseline relationship of those political entities. As in Jutonians conquering Nordland coming from Middenhiem, The Nordland vote nearly always went to the Wolf Emperor during the Time of the Three Emperors.
At this point it doesn't matter which caused which, it's a problem that is effecting too much to be ignored by either side of the debate. Much like the Mootland it was always a problem for certain people, and those people are fine fighting over it, they were roughly equal in strength and influence so it was contained. Now the Ar-Ulric made a treaty with people Nordland hates, that balance of power that kept the debates if not civil, contained is no longer present.
Since we're writing the lizardmen linguistics papers this turn, and since Mathilde just got a vault of Old Ones writings, what are the odds that she'll notice some similarity between the Old One tongue and those lizardmen plaques? I don't even know if the lizardmen language is especially close to the Old Ones tongue, but if it is that would be quite the connection to make.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Somebody else asked this earlier, and Boney replied that making the connection is something that would have to be earned with a lot more than that iirc.
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Ok I just read this Omake and this thing is hilarious and so apt! A grey wizard focuses on mystery's and ambiguities, There is no way you are tying me to that chair and making me wrangle my peers! Make someone else do it, yes I'll put a few whispers in a couple ears, maybe put down a false lead or seven... It's my duty you see! Their achievements are so much more than mine! Let them do the no-fun part.
You can just see Mathilde sitting in that chair, with her peers subtly bragging as their personal projects moved forward and she kept the world turning. So annoyed and all she hears is Ranald's laughter. Honestly she would think, "It's like herding cats."
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At which point a cat would jump on the table and knock someone's drink off in such a way, that from Mathilde's point of view the shards/drops would form the words "Skill issue".
Blackout
Fed By Comments
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- Who knows?
I would disagree, considering one of Ulric's strictures is outright "Obey your betters". I'd say Ulric's is among the most hierarchical of the cults.
Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
- Location
- At Home
Well, so-so. Ulricans claw back a bit of freeform-ness from that stricture by the fact that most of the Cult can redefine which one of two parties is the better of the other by getting into a fistfight on the spot when a disagreement is discovered. Or in the brinkmanship of goading one another into starting a fistfight, in the higher tiers.
Blackout
Fed By Comments
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- Who knows?
Not just any two parties, Tome of Salvation says that a fistfight is how disagreements between two Ulricans of equal rank are resolved. You can't just challenge your boss into a fistfight if you disagree with him, in fact Ulric specifically says that you're supposed to shut up and do what your superior tells you to do.
- Location
- Finland
I suspect lot of Ulricans have a fairly, straightforward, ideas on how to determine who is "better" in a given situation.
So while class and rank may be involvedin day to day life, the stricture probably gets interpreted more in the line "who is better at X" more often than not.
It's, not really that terrible stricture, in a more hunter/gatherer level of society.
Less so in a feudal/post feudal one.
So while class and rank may be involvedin day to day life, the stricture probably gets interpreted more in the line "who is better at X" more often than not.
It's, not really that terrible stricture, in a more hunter/gatherer level of society.
Less so in a feudal/post feudal one.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
i mean what do you define as centralized. Is Catholicism centralized? Many would say so. It has a pope and everything... except there is roughly 10000 faiths that all trace their origins back to catholicism, insist that they are it and refuse to budge, and they mostly started out in places where mainstream catholicism could not project power for like, five seconds at a time.
There is Ar-Ulric who can call all ulricans to the banner if need be to clobber someone with full might of the wolf. What more do they need?
- Pronouns
- he
Hierarchical doesn't necessarily mean centralized, especially if the ability to project power is more theoretical than actual. For example, the systems of feudal vassalage were very hierarchical, but also very to extremely decentralized.