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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DragonParadox said:
Yeah, otherwise known as screaming ruins you send the state troops into. There is no civilian population in Mordheim to upset unless you mean the ghouls.
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I think(?) That it's about whether we're perceived as making beachheads in the center of corruption like we've been planning, and taking the death toll we didn't think about but which such actions do create on the chin. Or whether we're perceived as creating islands of safety and chipping away at the darkness, more slowly and less dramatically.

Idk which one I'm voting for yet. I guess it was naive to assume the gribblies would never fight back and we'd have to consider how much we want to help how quickly, for fear of that risk, or fear of other people fearing that risk.
 
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Boney said:
[ ] Bridge of Death and New Town
This will please the Z'ra.
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Generally in favour of this for the thematics/statement alone, but given

Boney said:
This is about how the Waystone Project will be perceived ... It will affect not just how the locals feel about it and how they help or hinder it, but will also be a factor in what other rulers might expect if the Waystone Project came to their lands.
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It also feels like the best way to encourage cooperation from local powers for future deployments.

Overall rulers matter too, but the odds of one saying "No waystones for us, thanks" on behalf of their entire polity seems extremely low, whereas running in to some extremely difficult/obstinate local authorities seems almost guaranteed.
 
I think we can slow roll it and start with Karlsbridge. We're still probably a few decades away from the next ever chosen, we have the time.
 
Getting people willing to fight gribblies and mutants, might also be easier to sell them on it, if they already have visible examples and feelings about how the Waystones have/are made their lives better/healthier/happier, too.

i.e. People might be more willing to do the "poke the mutants and then put them down with fire and sword" options if they already associate Waystones with their security or health or happiness.

Think of this as like a strategic choice in regards to marketing and mass-appeal.

This is NOT the strategic choice of "What do we focus on; healthier people, or less Chaos Wastes?". Because any increasing amount of Waystones do that, and in time we pick all three options.

This is the strategic choice of "How do we try to sell the Waystones to people?" Because this is how we try to present or sell things.

So, that's why I think we should go for the first option.

Boris already knows that this will help Kislev as a whole. He already knows that this will start pruning back the Chaos Wastes near Praag. He already has been told that this can get rid of the murder-twisted-streets. Though seeing is believing and showing him that might be more effective, he at least knows it. But now, we can show him how his people will be pleased -- or at least, not displeased -- by the Waystones. And so then, Boris can work that into his calculations and plannings and policy and politics and diplomacy. "You can tell your Boyars and your Z'ra that this will defend and keep healthy, their people."

... Also, provoking a bunch of gribbly attacks at the start of the Tsar's reign... eh, it is Praag and it is Kislev, but still. It might not be the worst thing to happen to Kislev or Praag, but if we can make the start of a Tsar's reign more auspicious -- rather than the usual dour "Well of course a minor normal horrible thing happened. This is Kislev." -- then that's all to the good.
 
Shovah said:
Generally in favour of this for the thematics/statement alone, but given


It also feels like the best way to encourage cooperation from local powers for future deployments.

Overall rulers matter too, but the odds of one saying "No waystones for us, thanks" on behalf of their entire polity seems extremely low, whereas running in to some extremely difficult/obstinate local authorities seems almost guaranteed.
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The people who can make those decisions at the local level are the nobles. The Z'ra could make this inconvenient if he felt like it because he has a measure of local control, the citizenry has to bear it or the large armored folks with the swords arrive to 'convince them'. That is how the political system works.

Garlak said:
This is the strategic choice of "How do we try to sell the Waystones to people?" Because this is how we try to present or sell things.
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This is almost right but misses one thing, this is not a democracy. It is how we sell it to the people with actual power, the nobility and the kings.
 
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chocolote12 said:
#2 seems to be the closest to what most people were imagining in discussions about De-Praag'ing Praag, I think. But, #1 is the one that will make citizens feel the most like Praag is being de-Praag'ed. It's not a dilemma I was expecting.
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Yeah. I can't help but look at this one in the lens of the Protector.

Option #1 is most within the quest's explicit mechanics with the face of the Coin of Ranald, were that face active: Being the blade that defends against the horrors in the dark, making the lives of the populace their lives noticeably healthier and better off, done for seemingly no other reason than that their protection was the first priority in the effort.

And yet. #2 remains well inside the description. "Here is the blade that will slay the monster that thinks itself your tyrant. It will struggle and fight as it bleeds out, but bleed it will, and when it dies you will be free of it."

Defender or Liberator, but Protector either way.

Either way would be a fine message with which to come to other rulers, but overall, I think I'm leaning #1, just because I had previously thought about the First Waystone to be an act honoring the Protector, and that seems the most on the nose way to do it, within the established order of things.
 
Well, getting across the idea that waystones can clear a tainted mine or forest, and keep it clear, probably does more than anything else to make a bunch of feudal rulers sit up and take notice of the weird magic rocks.
I could also see townspeople clubbing together to raise funds for one, the same way they would to build a bridge or a windmill, if they see it as a fixed thing that's going to keep being useful for centuries.
 
Pleasing Tsars and Emperors doesn't sit well with me here, I want a grass-roots-ish approach. Central authority can deploy Waystones in great drives but can also fall into civil war or become vampires or whatever. Local people and local nobles are way more reliable in the long run.

Between them I think I'd prefer the people opinion. Shifts their perception of wizards as smart bombs to friendly neighborhood comfort providers, like architects.

A cool option would be to deploy near the temples for priest class opinions or Fire Spire for wizards and universities and places of learning (@Boney are these valid options?), but I think I'd stick with burgers anyway.
 
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DragonParadox said:
I really doubt that, these things are state of the art made by the very highest specialists of other states. Getting them isn't a matter of economics, it is a matter of international diplomacy.
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Nah, we have to consider the economics because the whole point of this is to kickstart the trend of "people buying Waystones".

And that's why Bridge of Death is the best option !

Appealing to local citizens by raising living standards creates a constituency of supporters with very limited money and political power. Meanwhile appealing to local nobility and to generals who want to remove deeply tainted threat zones ? That's a sales pitch to thousands of rich and politically significant people all around the Old World. And it's a pitch that focuses on actually pushing back the more serious problems, so it's a pitch that will seem worth the significant expense of buying a Waystone.

Bridge of Death is the best option for Waystone spread.
 
Because all three options will be taken regardless and this is essentially a PR decision... I think #1 is the best option? In terms of PR, being well-looked upon by the masses is great for the long-term viability of Waystones. Having an example up-front and not needing to be explained is it's own advantage.
 
weeblypanda said:
I agree, but it does have the short-term problem of needing a garrison. We might even need to step in and conduct...proactive reconnaissance.

Edit: While the River Gate option will get the Tzars favour, I think the symbolism of starting the push back at the place Chaos pushed the furthest is better.
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For me, I know we already have the Tsar's favor. I am partial to pleasing the local ruler by lancing the boil and taking what Chaos can stir up now, rather than when an Everchosen comes. I could be convinced to please to local population instead, though.
 
DragonParadox said:
This is almost right but misses one thing, this is not a democracy. It is how we sell it to the people with actual power, the nobility and the kings.
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Yes, exactly and we sell it to the kings and queens by pointing to the happier -- or at least "not put off by Weird Magic Crap" -- people.

The nobility and kings are pleased by their people being pleased. They are also pleased if they are given a product that does not piss people off, because it means they can more easily make their people accept it with minimal grumbling, which means they can preserve their influence for other things. Rulers really love being able to preserve influence and popularity, rather than doing things that costs them.

That is what I have been saying in all my posts so far. Sell it to the people, or at least avoid making them feel endangered or passed-over (since fighting back the Chaos Wastes and ignoring Praag entirely might make them feel that way). And thus sell it to the local rulers, and to the kings.

Boris already knows why we are doing this, strategically and magically. He is concerned with Kislev, and with another Asavar Kul. He knows that this will help, he's all for it.

However, he also has made noises about wanting to start off his reign with something to point to, like a canal or a Waystone helping out Praag. A public works project. A military campaign to get everybody used to working together and to achieving victory. Raising a few temples or something. Something to unite Kislev, or enrich Kislev, or to fire people up, or to just get them more used to doing a thing, or something. Whatever; you know, the usual "the beginning of a ruler's reign, try to start it off on a good note or do something notable and distinct."

I think giving him something that'll make his people safer/healthier, will do that better than something that'll rile up Praag in the short term, or which will slowly increase farmland and increase economic ledgers. Though admittedly, the ledgers are going to be increased anyway, since eventually all 3 options will be done, just...


I guess I'm prioritizing appeal to the people over appeal to the ledgers, in terms of presentation. Since the ledgers are going to be affected anyway, whereas we only get one chance to make a good or bad first impression on the people...
 
vsh said:
A cool option would be to deploy near the temples for priest class opinions or Fire Spire for wizards and universities and places of learning (@Boney are these valid options?), but I think I'd stick with burgers anyway.
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The Karlsbridge is right next to the Fire Spire. It's also near the Magnus Gardens, which has the Academy of Music, the College of Art, and the Temple of Ursun. That said, another possibility would be to focus on the West Side. The Temple of Dazh's Blinding Luminescence is the centre of Dazh's worship in Kislev, and it's right next to what used to be the city commons and is now a haunted waste called the Bleakness. It's also right next to the city crematorium, whose workers also double as the city's first response to outbreaks of undeath.

I'll add the West Side as an option.
 
The Lone badger said:
I feel #2 is easier to show that it works in an indisputable fashion. Instead of dry reports showing an average of 8% increased agricultural yield over a region of… it's somewhere you can literally see the difference with your eyes.
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Even though I agree with the death gate placement, I am pretty sure that Troll country is very visibly different from grazing land. It would also be very very visible.

It would also be meeting Boris' initial ask for the project.

I am partial to the death gate one, but I do not know if local nobles have the funds to get stuff like a waystone.
 
Garlak said:
Yes, exactly and we sell it to the kings and queens by pointing to the happier -- or at least "not put off by Weird Magic Crap" -- people.

The nobility and kings are pleased by their people being pleased. They are also pleased if they are given a product that does not piss people off, because it means they can more easily make their people accept it with minimal grumbling, which means they can preserve their influence for other things. Rulers really love being able to preserve influence and popularity, rather than doing things that costs them.

That is what I have been saying in all my posts so far. Sell it to the people, or at least avoid making them feel endangered or passed-over (since fighting back the Chaos Wastes and ignoring Praag entirely might make them feel that way). And thus sell it to the local rulers, and to the kings.

Boris already knows why we are doing this, strategically and magically. He is concerned with Kislev, and with another Asavar Kul. He knows that this will help, he's all for it.

However, he also has made noises about wanting to start off his reign with something to point to, like a canal or a Waystone helping out Praag. A public works project. A military campaign to get everybody used to working together and to achieving victory. Raising a few temples or something. Something to unite Kislev, or enrich Kislev, or to fire people up, or to just get them more used to doing a thing, or something. Whatever; you know, the usual "the beginning of a ruler's reign, try to start it off on a good note or do something notable and distinct."

I think giving him something that'll make his people safer/healthier, will do that better than something that'll rile up Praag in the short term, or which will slowly increase farmland and increase economic ledgers. Though admittedly, the ledgers are going to be increased anyway, since eventually all 3 options will be done, just...


I guess I'm prioritizing appeal to the people over appeal to the ledgers, in terms of presentation. Since the ledgers are going to be affected anyway, whereas we only get one chance to make a good or bad first impression on the people...
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Rulers do not care if their people are happier, as long as they are not in revolt which is not in question here, they certainly do not care if said people like magic, they care if they are healthy, able to work and pay their taxes. Fixing the Bridge of Death and the mutant quarter means the city no longer plays host to non-tax paying mutants who occasionally eat the the tax payers. Safer and healthier is not the same thing as happier from the perspective of the nobility.
 
Boney said:
The Karlsbridge is right next to the Fire Spire. It's also near the Magnus Gardens, which has the Academy of Music, the College of Art, and the Temple of Ursun. That said, another possibility would be to focus on the West Side. The Temple of Dazh's Blinding Luminescence is the centre of Dazh's worship in Kislev, and it's right next to what used to be the city commons and is now a haunted waste called the Bleakness. It's also right next to the city crematorium, whose workers also double as the city's first response to outbreaks of undeath.

I'll add the West Side as an option.
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Huh. Would this be the option of appealing to the priesthood, rather than the people or the local rulers or the national economics/defense?

An appeal to religion might be an interesting way to take things. Religion is important on its own. Religion is also important to the people en mass. And it is important to the rulers. And its importance to the people and to the clergy, also makes it important to the rulers too because they care about what the people and the priests think.

Is that what the option would -- ideally -- be doing? "Try to get the priests on-side, and thus appeal to the locals/nobles/kings via that angle"? and "If the priests are okay with Wizards Doing Wizard Stuff, then the people ought to be okay too"?

Is that going to be the angle here?

Get the priests on-side?

Because if so, then I'd probably be even more interested in that, than in option 1.

Because the Waystones are A Wizard Thing. And magic things are weird. People don't like magic because they don't understand it and they aren't comfortable with it. But people are more comfortable with their religion.

So if we can get the local religious authorities to be okay with us Doing Magic Stuff, then...

Then the people might be a lot more amenable to us Doing Wizard Things. They'd be a lot less likely to be disquieted by this stuff, right.

Also, Waystones more likely to be protected, because religious authorities and power. (Depending on defense through obscurity or unimportance is... eh. I dunno if we could have gotten away with our Waystones being overlooked all the time, so.)
 
fictionfan said:
There is only one river passing through the city and we want to put the waystone on a river if possible. That really just leaves where the river enters the city, where it leaves the city and at the bridge in the middle.

No symbolism anywhere else.
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There are technically seven possibilities where already existing infrastructure crosses the river. The Water Gate (where it leaves), the River Gate (where it enters), the two bridges (Karlsbridge, and the Empty Bridge/Bridge of Death), the remnants of a bridge further north between the River Gate and Karlsbridge, and the two places the Old Town walls pass over the river.
 
Added:

A fourth possibility does present itself, which wouldn't please any of the major groups as much as the other options but would earn a potentially very useful ally in taming Praag and its surrounds: the northern end of the West Side, where an empty piece of land that was once the city commons and graveyard. It was where the refugees of the Great War made camp, and their slaughter when the walls were breached has left such a mark on the area that no seed planted in the soil will sprout, and every body planted in it will rise again, earning it its new name of the Bleakness. The Cult of Dazh is very prominent in Kislev, and their Temple of Dazh's Blinding Luminescence directly overlooks the Bleakness, so they intervened with the establishment of a crematorium to process the city's dead. The grim practicality of the Kislevites and the fact that it's the holy flames of Dazh being used to cremate the dead mean that this practice is not quite as upsetting to the locals as it would be in a city of the Empire, but it would still please the locals in general and the Cult of Dazh in particular if this necessity was banished. That said, it would mean that the Waystone's riverine capabilities would not be on display for its first introduction to the world.

[ ] The Temple of Dazh and the Bleakness
This will please the Cult of Dazh.
 
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