Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[reignonyrparade]

Is that an action the Waystone Project has arranged? No, therefore the Project can't take credit for it. Sure it developed the ritual, but people tend to feel remarkably less grateful to who make something useful and then expect them to go to the trouble of arranging for the implementation it in comparison who people who make something useful and then arrange for it to be implemented.

We should not assume the Waystone Project will get credit for actions it does not do. The Waystone Project will get credit for developing the Dreaming Wood tributaries the moment that it arranges their construction. I should also note that waystones are incredibly more important and significant than tributaries.

Click to shrink...

Do you think mathilde got no credit for setting laurelorn up with the rite of way enchantment? Sometimes, as it turns out, organizations actively prefer being given the ability to do something in house to than for the product to be delivered to them

 

[picklepikkl]

I definitely agree. We need to figure out how we can integrate waystones into Kislev's network. I am betting that the Ancient Widow can serve a similar role as Caledor. Similarly, any expansions of their network would involve trying to figure out how the ancient Ice Witches communicated with her. Failing that, telling the Ancient Widow a new way for Ice Witches to communicate with her about waystone management.

Ulthuan had to figure out how to communicate to Caledor and explain to him the keyphrases. That was probably something done by the the greatest (surviving) archmages of that age.

But uh. Zlata. >_>

Click to shrink...

We know the Ice Witches were able to cause the Ancient Widow to withhold heavy snow from a specific place for a specific span of time. Furthermore, we know it's not just a thing that happened anyway that they're taking credit for, because:

And then you realize that whatever original objective this gambit might have had, the Ice Witches going to the trouble of scouring High Pass clean of snow would have announced that some sort of very important target of opportunity would be approaching.

Click to shrink...

Clearly whatever they did was a real thing that left an Aethyric imprint that Chaos could pick up on.

Furthermore, Ljiljana has on two occasions demonstrated at least as close a relationship with the Widow as we have with Ranald: once when she was passing along some divine politics stuff from Her and Ranald apparently thought it was legit, and once when L-dawg activated her Super Gospodar 4 transformation and mainlined a bunch of divine power at the same time. So She takes an active interest in goings-on and reaches out with divine attention, not just serving as a passive font of Ice Magic for Her followers.

So, in conclusion, if it turns out that the Ancient Widow is Caledor for the Kislevite Network, I think Zlata will be able to get the people who can commune more actively with Her to handle it. It doesn't seem like the modern Ice Witches have lost that, at least.

 

[Aranfan]

I am of the firm opinion that Laurelorn should get the first waystone. We sorta kinda already snubbed them on the tributaries IIRC.

 

[reignonyrparade]

We know the Ice Witches were able to cause the Ancient Widow to withhold heavy snow from a specific place for a specific span of time. Furthermore, we know it's not just a thing that happened anyway that they're taking credit for, because:

Click to shrink...

We know that the Ice witches were able to do SOMETHING that resulted in a lack of heavy snow and a specific place and time. Whether the ancient widow was directly involved, that's your supposition. It might very well have just been a "regular" ritual that mostly involved the ancient widow in the sense that it was ice witches who did said ritual.

 

[MrHobbit]

Do you think mathilde got no credit for setting laurelorn up with the rite of way enchantment? Sometimes, as it turns out, organizations actively prefer being given the ability to do something in house to than for the product to be delivered to them

Click to shrink...

There is a difference between how Mathilde commissioned the Rite of Way bridge and what you are expecting. Mathilde invented the Rite of Way spell, then went to Laurelorn and proposed the idea. Once she got House Fantapar on board she designed the bridge. She then tried to teach the methods and then Sarvoi clarified it. Mathilde will get credit here because she is purely responsible for the spell, the design of the bridge, and even the idea of the bridge.

This is the process that you are expecting with Laurelorn and tributaries. First Mathilde recruited the Jade Wizards and the Jade Wizards pointed out something their ancestors did. Tochter translated the ritual so it could be adapted. Then Cadaeth figured out how to make that work with a Dreaming Forest. Then Tochter helped her create the ritual. Then Mathilde sits back and eventually Laurelorn figures that they might as well do it. Do you see the difference here? Mathilde gets credit for the bridge because she was the driving force behind it. Unless Mathilde is the driving force behind Laurelorn making tributaries, Mathilde will not get credit. And hell, these are elves. Who knows how long it will take for them to decide to do it.

They will be much more quickly feel as if they have been snubbed by the Project that they are hosting than they will decide that they need to build tributaries.

So, in conclusion, if it turns out that the Ancient Widow is Caledor for the Kislevite Network, I think Zlata will be able to get the people who can commune more actively with Her to handle it. It doesn't seem like the modern Ice Witches have lost that, at least.

Click to shrink...

That's a good point! I had forgotten about that and was mostly trying to compare the scenario to Caledor's.

 

[reignonyrparade]

This is the process that you are expecting with Laurelorn and tributaries. First Mathilde recruited the Jade Wizards and the Jade Wizards pointed out something their ancestors did. Tochter translated the ritual so it could be adapted. Then Cadaeth figured out how to make that work with a Dreaming Forest. Then Tochter helped her create the ritual. Then Mathilde sits back and eventually Laurelorn figures that they might as well do it. Do you see the difference here? Mathilde gets credit for the bridge because she was the driving force behind it. Unless Mathilde is the driving force behind Laurelorn making tributaries, Mathilde will not get credit. And hell, these are elves. Who knows how long it will take for them to decide to do it.

Click to shrink...

Well now you're switching things around. Are we concerned about mathilde getting credit? Or are we concerned about the waystone project getting credit? Because as I see it "the waystone project getting credit for the tributaries" is actually quite close in degree of involvement as "Mathilde getting project for the rite of way."

(And also we've got a "whatever is convenient for your argument" sliding timescale for elven time expectations, who knows when they'll actually bother to make tributaries but also they'll definitely be upset about not getting them from us in the near term, rather than both those timescales being probably about the same as each other.)

 

[Darth Crater]

A leyline variant of this waystone is definitely important. Having both leyline and leyline/riverine waystones when we set out to deploy waystones seems like the best way to ensure that no effort is wasted. So I would prefer to wait to deploy until we have developed the leyline variant.

Click to shrink...

Do we need a separate leyline-only variant?

@Boney Can the current Waystone model be set up away from a river (with no Jade spike installed) and operate in Leyline-only mode? Or does its design require the river and spike regardless?

 

[guyfromtheplace1]

[X] Runesmith to Runesmith
Ask the Karaz-a-Karak Runesmiths Guild on behalf of the Karak Azul Runesmiths Guild.
[X] Okri to Okri
Ask Kragg on behalf of yourself.

 

[MrHobbit]

Spoiler: tributary argument

Well now you're switching things around. Are we concerned about mathilde getting credit? Or are we concerned about the waystone project getting credit? Because as I see it "the waystone project getting credit for the tributaries" is actually quite close in degree of involvement as "Mathilde getting project for the rite of way."

(And also we've got a "whatever is convenient for your argument" sliding timescale for elven time expectations, who knows when they'll actually bother to make tributaries but also they'll definitely be upset about not getting them from us in the near term, rather than both those timescales being probably about the same as each other.)

Click to shrink...

You are not addressing my point. Stop avoiding my point and address it. For all intents and purposes Mathilde is indistinguishable from the Waystone Project. Perhaps that will change as time goes on, but it exists because of her. Laurelorn reached out to start the Project because of her. Everyone here on the Project (with the exception of Hatalath and the papers that Ulthuan occasionally deigns to send) are here because of favors Mathilde did to get them here. The one exception, Cadaeth, is here because she likes waystones, Mathilde, and humans. That I wrote Mathilde instead of Waystone Project has no bearing on what I wrote and does not weaken it at all. Even if Mathilde was not indistinguishable from the Project, this does not address the point. And unless the Waystone Project is the one to arrange for the building of tributaries in Laurelorn, the Waystone Project will not receive the majority of credit for the action. It'll just mostly be seen as an extension of Cadaeth.

This isn't about convenience for my argument. This is a basic fact about human elf nature. You can compliment someone's hair style every time you see them for five years but if you call them ugly once they will remember that over the compliments. Tributaries are not pressing and Laurelorn doesn't need to organize them of their own volition right now. They're the hosts of the Waystone Project. That's the job of the Waystone Project.

Laurelorn will notice that they weren't first before they feel the need to build tributaries of their own initiative. I do not think that it is impossible to mitigate the harm of. I just would rather deploy waystones to Laurelorn first and not cause issues in the first place.

That's a direct benefit they would not have gotten if not for the project, and if we never spend a single AP on their network, ever, Cadeth will still be able to do that ritual and teach others centuries from now.

Click to shrink...

Is that them getting additions to the Waystone Network or not? Do you think Mathilde will get credit for tributaries being erected in Laurelorn if she does not spend the action to arrange it?

Look at my description of the process you expect Laurelorn to feel so grateful for.

First Mathilde recruited the Jade Wizards and the Jade Wizards pointed out something their ancestors did. Tochter translated the ritual so it could be adapted. Then Cadaeth figured out how to make that work with a Dreaming Forest. Then Tochter helped her create the ritual. Then Mathilde sits back and eventually Laurelorn figures that they might as well do it.

Click to shrink...

Do we need a separate leyline-only variant?

Boney Can the current Waystone model be set up away from a river (with no Jade spike installed) and operate in Leyline-only mode? Or does its design require the river and spike regardless?

Click to shrink...

The waystone can be set up away from the river, but it's a waste of effort. You can't take out the Jade spike because that's developing a new waystone. They aren't legos. The waystone is designed to connect between the Stone Flower, Dwarf Rune, Golden Age Storage, Grey Lord orbiter, Leyline, and Jade Riverine Leyline. A waystone that is made of the Stone Flower, Dwarf Rune, Golden Age Storage, Grey Lord orbiter, and Leyline is an entirely new waystone type.

Some of it will probably carry over, but we would still need to spend the action. There's other quotes, but this is the only one I could remember off the top of my head.

These aren't lego, you can't just snap them together. There's going to be a lot of work needed to get everything to play nice together and that's work that has a lot better results when there's experts from a number of different traditions able to troubleshoot and workshop different solutions.

Click to shrink...

 

[reignonyrparade]

You are not addressing my point. Stop avoiding my point and address it. For all intents and purposes Mathilde is indistinguishable from the Waystone Project. Perhaps that will change as time goes on, but it exists because of her. Laurelorn reached out to start the Project because of her. Everyone here on the Project (with the exception of Hatalath and the papers that Ulthuan occasionally deigns to send) are here because of favors Mathilde did to get them here. The one exception, Cadaeth, is here because she likes waystones, Mathilde, and humans. That I wrote Mathilde instead of Waystone Project has no bearing on what I wrote and does not weaken it at all. Even if Mathilde was not indistinguishable from the Project, this does not address the point.

Click to shrink...

I'm sorry but either your point is something other than what I'm interpreting it as, or we've got different standards of addressing your point, because to me your point feels pretty damn addressed.

 

[MrHobbit]

I'm sorry but either your point is something other than what I'm interpreting it as, or we've got different standards of addressing your point, because to me your point feels pretty damn addressed.

Click to shrink...

My point was that the comparison between the Rite of Way bridge and Laurelorn erecting tributaries is entirely wrong-headed. The two are entirely different scenarios and trying to compare them only betrays a misunderstanding of what caused them. You have done precisely nothing to address any part of it.

The first difference is blatant. Laurelorn was convinced to make the Rite of Way bridge by Mathilde. Mathilde spent an action to get them to do it. You want Laurelorn to decide to make tributaries on its own. The person pushing it will not Mathilde so she will not be the one who is associated with it. The Waystone Project will be acknowledged as the one who created the ritual certainly. I've said that before. But do we give credit to Melkoth for our victory in the Kul camp? No, of course not. We used his signature spell (if I remember correctly, but even if we didn't you can see my point here). But he wasn't the one doing the work. That was Ljiljana, the gods of Kislev, and Mathilde (and Ranald to!). Sure, we wouldn't have been able to do as much as Melkoth if he had not invented his Mystifying Miasma. But why would give him credit for it?

That is what you are trying to argue here for. That we should give credit to Melkoth for our victory in the Kul camp. That is just nonsense. And hell, of all the portions of the Waystone Project, Mathilde has had the least to do with the tributaries. She spent most of her time looking at a fertility ritual. She didn't help much when the rituals were prototyped either. So how much credit the Waystone Project as whole deserves credit for the ritual rather than Cadaeth and Tochter individually is debatable.

Designing a ritual is impressive. It's great that the Waystone Project did it. But designing a ritual is meaningless unless it is implemented.

 

[ReaperofInterest]

Honestly, I'm in favor of putting the first new Waystone in Laurelorn, mainly because we don't have a ton of places we CAN stick it safely right now. Stirland is currently getting tributaries placed throughout it, and doubling up in that province doesn't seem like the wisest choice at the moment. The Dwarves won't want it. For Kislev, as has been pointed out, we don't know enough about whatever's going on with the Waystone network there to be sure that adding new Waystones would be safe yet, and I know I'd rather not find out the hard way.

Laurelorn just seems to be the safest place we can stick the New Waystone, and we can deal with any political complications that result from that as we go. I don't imagine that they'll be too bad.

 

[picklepikkl]

Honestly, I'm in favor of putting the first new Waystone in Laurelorn, mainly because we don't have a ton of places we CAN stick it safely right now. Stirland is currently getting tributaries placed throughout it, and doubling up in that province doesn't seem like the wisest choice at the moment. The Dwarves won't want it. For Kislev, as has been pointed out, we don't know enough about whatever's going on with the Waystone network there to be sure that adding new Waystones would be safe yet, and I know I'd rather not find out the hard way.

Laurelorn just seems to be the safest place we can stick the New Waystone, and we can deal with any political complications that result from that as we go. I don't imagine that they'll be too bad.

Click to shrink...

This is a good analysis. The leading alternative candidate is Sylvania -- Drakenhof would be nicely symbolic for a lot of reasons -- but the thing is... this is just one Waystone. Its importance isn't in its actual functionality, its importance is in the symbolism of being the first Waystone produced by the Project, and indeed the first Waystone produced by anyone other than the Asur in centuries if not millennia. Its placement is a propaganda win, not a material betterment. And I think I like the propaganda win of putting it in Laurelorn, the hosts and in fact the people who got this whole thing going in the first place back when Cadaeth got a meeting with us through the Wolf Pope -- it gives them a nice thing to feel happy and smug about while we actually prioritize places like Kislev and Sylvania for our early large-scale deployment. That way, Laurelorn doesn't feel snubbed while we frantically focus our efforts on the places gribblies call home.

 

[reignonyrparade]

My point was that the comparison between the Rite of Way bridge and Laurelorn erecting tributaries is entirely wrong-headed. The two are entirely different scenarios and trying to compare them only betrays a misunderstanding of what caused them. You have done precisely nothing to address any part of it.

Click to shrink...

Okay, if that's the core of the point, I see why you feel like it's not addressing it.

That being said, i mostly just think it's straight up wrong. What Laurelorn wants out of the waystone project was never, at any point, "more tributaries in Laurelorn." They do not need to be convinced to do that: they are literally already doing that. When we went to recruit Cadaeth, that is straight up what she was doing. What Laurelorn wanted from the project from the start, what was The Deliverable from the start was an alternate method for creating tributaries on their own, because they have legitimate security concerns about relying on outside parties for that shit.

As a seperate matter, while I will allow them not considering cadaeth's contributions to be part of the project, again I think you're just straight up for what they consider to be "contributions of the waystone project" vs "contributions of individual members." Again, part of what Mathilde was selling when the waystone project got going was "well the colleges of magic have secret lore and maybe if everybody shares..." If Laurelorn is actively trying to be uncharitable, MAYBE the individual contributions of non-college, non luarelorn members will also not be credited to the project. College of magic members though, no, there is nothing you can say that would convince me, I just think you're straight up wrong about that too.

 

[EFW3]

So, you see, it is not useful to our purposes.

Click to shrink...

yah, that's a problem when there are literally thousands of pages in the thread I need to dig through to find the answer I need.

 

[Sparsebeard]

[X] Okri to Okri

 

[*name*]

[X] Karak to Karak
[X] Okri to Okri
[X] Empire to Empire

 

[HanChenYou]

Belegar's mind drifts to the question of Karaz-a-Karak. Ever since his ever-reliable Loremaster had uncovered the matter of the siphoned energy, he had wondered what purpose Karaz-a-Karak had been putting it to. Was this part of the answer? Was it somehow needed to reopen sealed portions of the Karak?

Click to shrink...

Given that Belegar was considering this question right before this:

"The Eyes of Grimnir will open once more."

Click to shrink...

I have little doubt that he has a tentative hypothesis that things like the Eyes of Grimnir might be powered by the magic taken into KAK. I doubt he would have jumped to the conclusion that the Runes of Valaya are powered by this, because Occam's razor would say that is divine work instead, I think.

Basically, I think that Belegar asking and getting told no will not harm him as much as might otherwise be supposed.

I also think that Thorgrim has a better chance of telling people if it is of real and practical import to continuing or increasing the flow of much needed mana.

[x] Karak to Karak
[x] Okri to Okri
[x] Empire to Empire

 

[Chlof]

The leading alternative candidate is Sylvania -- Drakenhof would be nicely symbolic for a lot of reasons --

Click to shrink...

We would also really need to scope out the Mordheim nexus before doing that.

 

[Boney]

Do we need a separate leyline-only variant?

@Boney Can the current Waystone model be set up away from a river (with no Jade spike installed) and operate in Leyline-only mode? Or does its design require the river and spike regardless?

Click to shrink...

It can be set up away from a river with the spike disabled, but it can't be left out completely. You'd need to rebuild the leyline mechanism which would require reconfiguring the storage mechanism to play nice with the changes and at that point you're just building an entirely new Waystone type.

 

[MrHobbit]

Spoiler: tributary argument

Okay, if that's the core of the point, I see why you feel like it's not addressing it.

That being said, i mostly just think it's straight up wrong. What Laurelorn wants out of the waystone project was never, at any point, "more tributaries in Laurelorn." They do not need to be convinced to do that: they are literally already doing that. When we went to recruit Cadaeth, that is straight up what she was doing. What Laurelorn wanted from the project from the start, what was The Deliverable from the start was an alternate method for creating tributaries on their own, because they have legitimate security concerns about relying on outside parties for that shit.

As a seperate matter, while I will allow them not considering cadaeth's contributions to be part of the project, again I think you're just straight up for what they consider to be "contributions of the waystone project" vs "contributions of individual members." Again, part of what Mathilde was selling when the waystone project got going was "well the colleges of magic have secret lore and maybe if everybody shares..." If Laurelorn is actively trying to be uncharitable, MAYBE the individual contributions of non-college, non luarelorn members will also not be credited to the project. College of magic members though, no, there is nothing you can say that would convince me, I just think you're straight up wrong about that too.

Click to shrink...

What Laurelorn wanted out of the Waystone Project was diplomatic relations with the Empire. That we are now building waystones and will be in a position to rebuild them across the entire continent has upended what Laurelorn wants entirely.

Laurelorn did not care about getting new tributaries. The border with Nordland has been firmly settled in Laurelorn's favor. Humans cutting down lornalim had been obviated as a concern years before Cadaeth invited Mathilde to start the Waystone Project. Less precious metal-y tributaries are nice. But it's that. Nice. They did not start the Waystone Project with the intention of getting rid of that weakness. That weakness had already been ended.

They were concerned that they would go back to war with Nordland, but that would not be because of the Lornalim. The silver and gold would play a roll yes, but it is far overweighed by revanchism. And now Nordland has dumped that revanchism to focus on bickering with Middenland.

Do you understand that there is a difference in the credit you will get for an action that you drive and arrange to happen in comparison to an action that you create the possibility of but is something that they are left to do on their own devices?

Funnily enough, there is a comparison you can make that would not be entirely wrong, well for the reason I have been highlighting. Waaagh and Peace. Mathilde will get credit for the victories enabled by it.

But there is a critical difference here too. Waaagh and Peace was entirely revolutionary. The insights Mathilde gave there genuinely cannot be replicated. Mathilde also made sure that she would be associated with it. Her lecture means that the intellectuals of the Old World would put her as the one responsible for the insights. Even if she had only published the book, her name is right on the cover of an insight into the greenskin wizard that would put them at a firm disadvantage in combat across the entire world. Mathilde went out of her way to make sure the Old World got it. In comparison, the Dreaming Wood tributary is something Mathilde did not care enough about to implement.

Laurelorn can already make tributaries and they are the least portion of the waystone network. The credit that would be distributed in the first place is diminished because they are a nice thing to have. Not something that you need.

If you wanted to compare Waaagh and Peace to the hypothetical products of the Waystone Project the closest comparison is genuinely the nexuses. Like if Mathilde managed to figure out how to make more nexuses and just sat back and didn't do anything, leading people to get it of their own initiative she would get a chunk of credit for any built nexuses. There would be annoyance that Mathilde didn't actually do anything about it, but everyone would (perhaps begrudgingly) acknowledge that the egghead deserves credit for making it possible. By "sat back" I mean just publishing it and not really doing anything about it. Not like using it as an opportunity to get people to come to you and leverage the advantage that being the petitioned comes with. Just doing nothing with it. Not even going out of the way to give it to an institution that can do something with it (because in the comparison to tributaries, that would involve deploying tributaries, which you are arguing we should not).

In comparison, tributaries would be like, dunno, greenskin armor forging techniques. Nice to have, but fundamentally armor is armor and even if you can implement it there's only so much it can help. It's nice to have. Not something you need.

it gives them a nice thing to feel happy and smug about while we actually prioritize places like Kislev and Sylvania for large-scale deployment. That way, Laurelorn doesn't feel snubbed while we frantically focus our efforts on the places gribblies call home.

Click to shrink...

Though if we overwhelm House Tindomiel with waystones that will be built in Laurelorn, then we can minimize the waystones dedicated to Hekarti that will be built in the Empire.

 

[Redshirt Army]

I will note that Thorgrim does have the option to say "yes the Karaz Ankor can very much use that energy if provided" without spilling the beans regarding the Rune of Valaya in particular.

Like, "we have old megaprojects which needed the power and shut down without it" is already kind of the obvious hypothesis from anyone's end who knows about Waystones existing and noticed that the Eyes of Grimnir were switched on after Vlag came back. So confirming that much wouldn't be telling the elves or humans anything they didn't already basically know.

 

[reignonyrparade]

Do you understand that there is a difference in the credit you will get for an action that you drive and arrange to happen in comparison to an action that you create the possibility of but is something that they are left to do on their own devices?

Click to shrink...

Lack of understanding is not the issue here, we just fundamentally disagree on who counts as "you" and also what counts as "an action."

 

[picklepikkl]

yah, that's a problem when there are literally thousands of pages in the thread I need to dig through to find the answer I need.

Click to shrink...

Well, the Transcendent Boon is listed as being from Karak Vlag on our character sheet; that's not hidden information.

As for the citation about the Runesmith's Guild, I certainly did not mean to imply that it was a failing on your part that you didn't already know it. If that's what you took from what I said, I apologize. This thread has a lot going on, and even reading only Boney's posts would take a nontrivial amount of time. So I try to be helpful by pulling citations about topics when someone is speculating about something that Boney has weighed in on, because, as you say, expecting everyone to know everything is ridiculous.

(I've become a bit of a thread meme about it, which I'm very flattered by.)

We would also really need to scope out the Mordheim nexus before doing that.

Click to shrink...

Sylvania's population centers are all on rivers, so we could safely just make use of that transmission method for Drakenhof for now and worry about tying them into the leylines later, once we know what's up. As you say, probably a good idea to do that until we're sure we wouldn't be funneling power to nasties.

EDIT: Though, now that I think about it, if we slowly expanded the network into Sylvania from the edges of Stirland's network, that would probably also be fine because IIUC Stirland's waystones flow into the Moot Nexus, which then flows into the big Nuln -> Altdorf -> Marienburg trunk route. No need to point Sylvania's waystones at Mordheim at all if we're always connecting them to a pre-existing safe route.

Like, "we have old megaprojects which needed the power and shut down without it" is already kind of the obvious hypothesis from anyone's end who knows about Waystones existing and noticed that the Eyes of Grimnir were switched on after Vlag came back. So confirming that much wouldn't be telling the elves or humans anything they didn't already basically know.

Click to shrink...

I don't think the Eyes of Grimnir are public knowledge -- Thorgrim revealed it to his Brother-Kings and Sister-Queen, and for obvious reasons the KaK Marshal and Runesmith's Guild probably know about it, but we don't have reason to believe that it's known outside of that circle.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

when L-dawg activated her Super Gospodar 4 transformation

Click to shrink...

Pickle, you're a poet.

This is a good analysis. The leading alternative candidate is Sylvania -- Drakenhof would be nicely symbolic for a lot of reasons -- but the thing is... this is just one Waystone. Its importance isn't in its actual functionality, its importance is in the symbolism of being the first Waystone produced by the Project, and indeed the first Waystone produced by anyone other than the Asur in centuries if not millennia. Its placement is a propaganda win, not a material betterment. And I think I like the propaganda win of putting it in Laurelorn, the hosts and in fact the people who got this whole thing going in the first place back when Cadaeth got a meeting with us through the Wolf Pope -- it gives them a nice thing to feel happy and smug about while we actually prioritize places like Kislev and Sylvania for our early large-scale deployment. That way, Laurelorn doesn't feel snubbed while we frantically focus our efforts on the places gribblies call home.

Click to shrink...

I completely agree. The first Waystone should go to Laurelorn; the second through twentieth should go to Praag.

(I favour Praag over the other options because if we get started soon enough, by the time the next Everchosen marches south it'll be a solid roadblock instead of a liability.)

It can be set up away from a river with the spike disabled, but it can't be left out completely. You'd need to rebuild the leyline mechanism which would require reconfiguring the storage mechanism to play nice with the changes and at that point you're just building an entirely new Waystone type.

Click to shrink...

I definitely think this is worth the AP.