Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Do keep in mind when you say that laurelorn will get mad we haven't given them waystones yet that literally no one expected us to actually succeed in making waystones when we went into this. The point for the queen was to be visibly seen working alongside the empire and the dwarves and solidify her diplomatic position. Now, she would certainly *like* waystones, but I doubt elves are gonna get miffed over a couple years waiting.

But yeah, I can see the appeal of giving them the first as a sop to their pride and then actually focus on the problem areas.
 
Last edited:
Lack of understanding is not the issue here, we just fundamentally disagree on who counts as "you" and also what counts as "an action."
Fundamentally we are talking about the Tributary: Dreaming Wood (Nordland) action. If Mathilde does not use an action and someone in Laurelorn does then that person will get the credit for the the tributaries. The Waystone Project will be credited for creating the ritual and that alone, because that is all they did.

It is the same with Waaagh and Peace. If someone wins a battle with it, then Mathilde will get credit for creating the methods that were used to enable it. She won't get credit for fighting the battle.

This will not give Laurelorn the warm and fuzzy feelings about being given the proper due as the host of the Waystone Project. This is nothing. Even if Mathilde does the action herself, they aren't actual waystones. They're gutters that makes Number Go Up. Not something that will change the entire continent.

It is very telling that you will not address the fact that tributaries are an extremely small topic compared to the actual waystones. Or that Laurelorn isn't in the Project for Tributaries and that even if you were right, the waystones have given them a rather bigger shiny to want instead.

Laurelorn knows what waystones are and its nobility knows that they want waystones. They also know that they are the host of the Waystone Project and thus their desires had better be respected.
 
Fundamentally we are talking about the Tributary: Dreaming Wood (Nordland) action. If Mathilde does not use an action and someone in Laurelorn does then that person will get the credit for the the tributaries. The Waystone Project will be credited for creating the ritual and that alone, because that is all they did.
Yup, completely right, this specifically, we are in full agreement on.

That's still a deliverable. Deliverable, delivered. Everything else: completely extraneous to everything I have been saying. Deliverable, delivered.
 
I'm inclined to agree that the first new waystone being in Laurelorn may be the best option, if only because we first need to survey Sylvania and examine Kislev's network before rashly plugging things in. Laurelorn has probably surveyed their own network long before, too.

If it wasn't for those reasons, I'd still probably push for either Sylvania or Praag. Laurelorn may be our host, but from an elven perspective, we're practically speedrunning this shit. It wouldn't surprise me if it took a few more years for them to start politely coughing and expecting more than we've already gotten them - a treaty that deals with Ulthuan and the rest of the Project's contributing nations on equal footing, and which defangs a lot of trouble Nordland could stir up regarding waystones.

It's not really a problem to have them be first, given that the top-notch lab we got from them probably simplified things, and Boney has stated before that their elves outright told us stuff that we'd otherwise have needed to dedicate a few actions to learn/explore without them, but, well. Laurelorn isn't a Dhar-filled wasteland where hope is a foreign idea - so it could look somewhat ostentatious or more political than necessary.
 
Yup, completely right, this specifically, we are in full agreement on.

That's still a deliverable. Deliverable, delivered. Everything else: completely extraneous to everything I have been saying. Deliverable, delivered.
Why exactly is how important or relevant the action is not relevant to a discussion about how Laurelorn will view the Project doing the action or not? I also fail to see why explanations that if Mathilde does not do the action, she will not get credit for doing the action is irrelevant. Or

We absolutely can return more to the original discussion if you wish. You know full well that my initial comment was about the deployed results. If the initial comment wasn't clear, and I think it was plenty clear, the past hours we've spent makes that obvious. You instead continue to ignore the fact that the tributaries are perfunctory. The effect they will have on Laurelorn's opinion of the Project is minimal. Especially if we do not actually implement them ourselves. Being generous this is just semantics.

And hell, if we're going to quibble about the wording of the initial comments, your initial comment mentioned that Laurelorn wanted a new tributary design out of the Project and that is entirely wrong. It is also entirely wrong to assume that waystones would not laughably overshadow tributaries in terms of importance.

I'm inclined to agree that the first new waystone being in Laurelorn may be the best option, if only because we first need to survey Sylvania and examine Kislev's network before rashly plugging things in. Laurelorn has probably surveyed their own network long before, too.
Ngl the biggest reason why I want to do Laurelorn first is that I want to minimize the number of Waystones that House Tindomiel makes in the Empire as possible. Just entirely out of spite for Mathilde getting played.

Oh I guess avoiding Hekarti-dedicated waystones being erected in places where loads of Imperials will live is a good idea. :V to be clear, I'm not actually upset, I genuinely think trying to minimize the Hekarti-dedicated waystones that go up in the Empire is a good idea and the best way to do that is by arranging it so that House Tindomiel is busy with other orders so we can go to the other houses, Ulthuan, or the Colleges for the components. It won't have that much of an affect in the bigger picture, but being spiteful is fun.

I agree that we have some latitude in when we actually deploy the waystones. Deploying them to Praag first will probably be seen as fine, we can probably spin Sylvania or the Drakwald without annoying them too much. But if we're building them in Middenland, which is right next door, we had better be getting around to getting them waystones ASAP. You're going to have people in Laurelorn feel unhappy about not being first, but we can manage it unless we just drop the ball entirely.

Of the participants and feeling snubbed if they don't get waystones first, Laurelorn has just about all of the things that would make them feel snubbed. The Karaz Ankor doesn't need waystones, so their opinion about it doesn't matter too much. The Empire and Kislev need them more, but there's problems with that. The Empire is lead by people who only vaguely get that waystones are important. To them it's a wizard thing. The Colleges understand why there need to be more waystones, but they aren't even an Elector. Even Luitpold largely views it as an important wizard thing, but he's not particularly enthusiastic about it. That will change as more waystones get built, but that's true for just about everyone except Laurelorn, who already want waystones right now as much as they ever will.

Boris understands that waystones are important and he'll pave over people getting in the way of waystones. The Ice Witches also like to marry into the Boyars, so they'll be able to get the boyars approve of waystones. But Kislev has been abused and neglected for the past hundred and eighty-eight years. He wants waystones, but Kislev's government needs to be in a position to organize that first. If he drops everything to get waystones now, he'll end up with less waystones in the long-term because the central government needs to be rebuilt. He also probably needs the Ice Witches to recover. The Ice Witches and Hag Witches aren't making tributaries right now because they need to focus on rebuilding their, er, organizations. He'll put more effort into waystones than tributaries, but the underlying issues will slow full-implementation. We can definitely make a show of healing Praag, but beyond that gets difficult to say the least.

Laurelorn meanwhile, has a lot more going for it. Laurelorn is lead by elves, knowing how important waystones should be a given for its leadership. It at least ought to know where all of its waystones aren't, so the lack of them is very much felt by them. Less so for the Empire. It's not Kislev or the Empire so it's government functions aren't dysfunctional messes a day away from collapse. It's also the host, which means they think they ought to be first. The only thing mitigating all of this is that they're elves, but holy shit waystones are enough of a big deal to outweigh that.

Tilea and Estalia are a bunch of petty kings and republics who will want them if a rival gets them, or if they're built in the Empire and Bretonnia for that matter. But it won't really be because they feel pressed. Bretonnia is actually similar to Laurelorn. With the exception of Mousillon, afaik their piece of the Network is fine. They're similar to the Empire in that their nobility largely doesn't understand waystones. However, unlike the Empire, the Fay Enchantress can simply decree that Bretonnia will get waystones and Bretonnia will get waystones.

I end this message with the statement that this message got away from me and that politics are fun. :V
 
Why exactly is how important or relevant the action is not relevant to a discussion about how Laurelorn will view the Project doing the action or not? I also fail to see why explanations that if Mathilde does not do the action, she will not get credit for doing the action is irrelevant. Or
"The action" is not the deliverable in question, so whether mathilde does the action or not is irrelevant. At this point we seem to both agree that the waystone project will at least get credit for the creation of the ritual. I think that's a deliverable, you do not, neither of us is going to be convinced otherwise. You think this is Perfunctory, I do not. You think other fancier deliverables potential deliverables make our previous deliverables-except-you-think-they're-not-deliverables not count as deliverables, I do not. This conversation is pretty well mined.
 
"The action" is not the deliverable in question, so whether mathilde does the action or not is irrelevant. At this point we seem to both agree that the waystone project will at least get credit for the creation of the ritual. I think that's a deliverable, you do not, neither of us is going to be convinced otherwise. You think this is Perfunctory, I do not. You think other fancier deliverables potential deliverables make our previous deliverables-except-you-think-they're-not-deliverables not count as deliverables, I do not. This conversation is pretty well mined.
Ah, it is clear now. This is entirely because you disliked my use of the word in the original comment and you have been playing semantics this entire time.

Next time you think someone's word choice is off just directly say that. Like "Hey, I think deliverables could apply to both schematics and deployed Waystone Network components." Or something like that idc. There is a clear difference between research and physical (or metaphysical!) objects that do stuff. I don't mind using deliverables to apply to both, but I do mind trying to imply that inventing Dreaming Wood tributaries will make Laurelorn perfectly happy and not even care that they won't get waystones first because technically they already got something.
 
Ngl the biggest reason why I want to do Laurelorn first is that I want to minimize the number of Waystones that House Tindomiel makes in the Empire as possible. Just entirely out of spite for Mathilde getting played.

Oh I guess avoiding Hekarti-dedicated waystones being erected in places where loads of Imperials will live is a good idea. :V to be clear, I'm not actually upset, I genuinely think trying to minimize the Hekarti-dedicated waystones that go up in the Empire is a good idea and the best way to do that is by arranging it so that House Tindomiel is busy with other orders so we can go to the other houses, Ulthuan, or the Colleges for the components. It won't have that much of an affect in the bigger picture, but being spiteful is fun.
I still think it's not a big deal. Very few people in the Empire read Eltharin in the first place, and we've been told that it's gonna be a dedication to a god or goddess that isn't proscribed in the Empire. Hekarti in a funny hat and moustache, probably. For all we know, she could end up being Haletha or The Lady (or at least assumed by House Tindomiel to be such).
 
This initially started with an unexpected and random team-up between Laurelorn and Middenland, right? And it was the Ar-Ulric that asked us to hear the Eonir out, and we took up the project to, among other reasons, try to get better relations between the Eonir and the Empire... which includes Middenland, as the province that first started all this, and which also is undergoing some religious issues and strife over Ulric and Nordland as a consequence or second-order results of stuff right?

What about placing the Waystone somewhere on the border of Laurelorn and Middenland -- such as in the Shadensump (Schadensumpf?), maybe near where we just started up that enchanted bridge project too?

So that both Laurelorn and Middenland can receive the prestige of the deed.

Laurelorn isn't the only polity that has the potential to feel slighted over things, in the end. After all, if the Middenlanders or Cult of Ulric feel like they went out on a limb to fight against Beastmen alongside Eonir, and to then extend an opportunity to the Eonir to profit from the partnership even more... and what resulted was the Altdorfers -- the Colleges of Magic being in Altdorf -- and the Karaz Ankor (and even Kislev) coming in and going "Yes thank you, we'll gladly take that; thank you for putting us in touch with those guys, bye." ... Well, it probably won't reach that level or anything, of course. If nothing else, then because the Schadensumpf is going to be the major trade route between Laurelorn and the rest of the Empire, and because the Middenlanders have had the most time to work diplomacy on the Elves, and because Nordland will be right on the border with Laurelorn. On the other hand, there's also potential for Laurelorn to compete or jockey with the Middenlanders as much as they cooperate with them, and the Middenlanders might dislike that, if it leaves them feeling like they were the first to take the risk and reach out and open up the opportunity, but were later overshadowed.

So.

The Border of Laurelorn and Middenland. The Schadensumpf itself perhaps.

What do people think?
 
Next time you think someone's word choice is off just directly say that. Like "Hey, I think deliverables could apply to both schematics and deployed Waystone Network components." Or something like that idc. There is a clear difference between research and physical (or metaphysical!) objects that do stuff. I don't mind using deliverables to apply to both, but I do mind trying to imply that inventing Dreaming Wood tributaries will make Laurelorn perfectly happy and not even care that they won't get waystones first because technically they already got something.
Okay honestly it literally didn't occur to me that someone might thing intangibles could NEVER count as deliverables, I ONLY perceived you as considering the tributaries to not be deliverable as a matter of degree, not kind. So, that's why I didn't say I thought your word choice was off, because until literally this exact moment, I didn't think your word choice was off.
 
I still think it's not a big deal. Very few people in the Empire read Eltharin in the first place, and we've been told that it's gonna be a dedication to a god or goddess that isn't proscribed in the Empire. Hekarti in a funny hat and moustache, probably. For all we know, she could end up being Haletha or The Lady (or at least assumed by House Tindomiel to be such).
Wasn't that the discreet option? We chose Dedication. I know that the carvings will be difficult to identify, but we're still building these across a continent. The difficulty of these and right of first refusal will ensure that we'll be able keep them away from large cities (and thus the places where the most well-versed in Elven gods live). We'll probably get to ask them what god they would use to hide their dedication to Hekarti and we can just assure the concerned voices that the dedications are too the elf version of [insert god here].

I'd just rather drown them in work for places where it won't even be a problem out of spite. :V

Actually come to think of it telling people that a god has a guise among elves as the god of magic whose most notable worshippers are the Sorceresses of Ghrond might be a bad thing. Though I think it should be fine? Actually you'd think the Witch-Hunters would have a lot of knowledge about any god they know of. So, that might not be a good idea?

[ ] [FORM] Dedication (0)
Tindomiel-built Waystones will have carvings that can only be recognized as dedications to Hekarti by someone well-versed in Elven Gods.
[ ] [FORM] Discreet (-1)
Tindomiel-built Waystones will have dedication to an accepted and legal God of the Old World Pantheon.

Okay honestly it literally didn't occur to me that someone might thing intangibles could NEVER count as deliverables, I ONLY perceived you as considering the tributaries to not be deliverable as a matter of degree, not kind. So, that's why I didn't say I thought your word choice was off, because until literally this exact moment, I didn't think your word choice was off.
I have spent literally every comment talking about actually building the things. It's all been about whether the Project adds stuff to the Network or not. My reply to you bringing up the Rite of Way bridge said that Mathilde got the credit for it because she was the one who drove the creation of the bridge and that she created the spell and even designed it were not even the main reasons why she got the credit. You even cut out a sentence I wrote talking about the difference between designing something and arranging for it to be built. My bringing up Waaagh and Peace was entirely about the difference between discovering something and using something. I directly said two comments ago that I was talking "about the deployed results." Ah well. I guess I could have been more clear.

Well that's enough of discussing the differences between theory and praxis. Time for sensible things, like what would we do with seven AP.
 
Last edited:
Wasn't that the discreet option? We chose Dedication. I know that the carvings will be difficult to identify, but we're still building these across a continent. The difficulty of these and right of first refusal will ensure that we'll be able keep them away from large cities (and thus the places where the most well-versed in Elven gods live). We'll probably get to ask them what god they would use to hide their dedication to Hekarti and we can just assure the concerned voices that the dedications are too the elf version of [insert god here].
Actually come to think of it telling people that a god has a guise among elves as the god of magic whose most notable worshippers are the Sorceresses of Ghrond might be a bad thing. Though I think it should be fine? Actually you'd think the Witch-Hunters would have a lot of knowledge about any god they know of. So, that might not be a good idea?
Well, that's true, I misremembered a few statements.

But Hekarti is still a legal goddess in the Empire:

Hekarti has no legal status in the Empire.
Just to make sure, "legal status" is the same as illegal in the Empire, right? Or am I mistaken? I actually am not quite sure anymore because the Empire has so many minor and regional gods and more pop up from time to time (any time a new settlement finds a particularly weird looking rock inhabited by a not quite unfriendly spirit), so I don't know if said villagers have to, like, declare their newfound deity and have it checked out for potential daemonhood or something before legally being allowed to worship it. So maybe there's actually a list of illegal gods, not a list of legal gods, making Hekarti worship technically okay for now.
It means if someone starts worshipping Hekarti, the established local clergy will investigate and if they think something's off they'll call in Witch Hunters to investigate further. But Hekarti is the Goddess of Doing Magic and the only people who can legally do magic in the Empire are the Colleges, who are officially secular, so any attempts at Hekarti worship by non-Magisters would skip right to the Witch Hunters and everyone involved being dragged to Altdorf in chains if they're lucky.
Hekarti isn't an automatically bad goddess for the Empire just because she gets worshiped for Dark Magic by the Druchii. She's far more likely to become a fringe goddess for some College members, worshiped for her knowledge of the Winds in general. Even then it'll probably not be that much, given that the Colleges are rather secular, and given that elf god worship is more about channeling a mindset than about strict worship.
 
Last edited:
Personally I suspect that "shrines of hekarti that take the Bad Magic to Somewhere Else" would rapidly see a folk belief in hekarti as "the goddess of taking away the bad magic."

Hell if Hekarti DOES in fact have an empire-favorable guise there may even be some active encouragment in that direction, there have been comments on gods being perfectly happy to grow in whatever direction when opportunity strikes.
 
My proposal is that whoever taught Zlata is insane. :V

Ljiljana mentioned that Zlata could have participated in the battle. Her comment about Nadezhda might imply that Zlata knows battle magic? It would be weird for Ljiljana to point Zlata as someone who could go to battle if she can't do battlefield-scale magic.

Actually come to think of it is really weird of Ljiljana to keep Zlata in a magic research project with Baba Niedzwenka. Ljiljana would absolutely throw someone who doesn't know battle magic into battle. Zlata could just know less magic than Nadezhda, who at least can do a little bit of battlefield-scale magic.

I came up this idea completely seriously, before I started picking more holes in it and it became more of a joke. Right now I am just confused. Who was the person worse than Zlata? Was it Nadezhda? If it was, maybe Zlata does know battle magic? It would make sense if it was Nadezhda. She had greater odds of being the Ice Witch present than all the others. She seems to... admire Boris enough that it seems likely for her to have been in the city at the time. But how good at battle magic could Zlata be for Nadezhda be 'worse' than her? Nadezhda is a full Ice Witch. (though yeah, the dice rolls aren't exact lists what is better) (also it could have been someone else entirely)

I mean we had six college journeymen on the expedition, they certainly did not know battle magic. Why is it insane, rather than just suboptimal for the Ice Court to send one of their own ? My original post was about how screwed we would have been with Zlata for backup, not that no one would have sent her.
 
Different people have different skillsets, and will approach the same problem in different ways. One person succeeding with brute force does not mean that brute force is the only approach that can work.
 
Did we ever introduce Wizard Dad to his adorably precocious Wizard Granddaughter?

It has been pointed out before that we should not expect Regimand to like or indeed care about Eike, we throw terms like 'daughter' around for Regimand and Mathilde because there is certainly something more there than master and apprentice, but this in on way obligates him to have an emotional attachment to the girl she happens to be teaching.
 
Voting is open
Back
Top