Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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I don't think the Eyes of Grimnir are public knowledge -- Thorgrim revealed it to his Brother-Kings and Sister-Queen, and for obvious reasons the KaK Marshal and Runesmith's Guild probably know about it, but we don't have reason to believe that it's known outside of that circle.
They have to be known in some circles within Karaz-A-Karak though, unless Thorgrim is monitoring the eyes with the Throne and directing the patrols personally.

I don't think there's any reason to keep them secret from Dwarfs as a whole: it would be pretty good for Morale.
 
In terms of what Laurelorn wanted from the Project from the start, we were told:

We've got our own piece of the network just as the Dwarves do, and if we could bring a few more Waystones online, it could do a lot of good for us - and our friends and allies. So we want to open a relationship with your King Belegar, in the hopes of beginning joint research into the Waystone Network."

That was interpreted, including by Boney, I believe, to imply that like the dwarves, Laurelorn had inactive leyline powered infrastructure they wanted to switch on but couldn't because they needed more magic. What Cadaeth says is that a small number, a few more working Waystones would allow them to do so, presumably by allowing them to replace broken links in chains. She also says that this presumed infrastructure wouldn't just benefit them, but would have spillover to friends and allies.

How this fits with what we've subsequently learned about the Waystone network I don't know. Given Boney drew this diagram:

Complicating matters, based on half-remembered extremely basic lessons when she was an Apprentice, the left model is what the Colleges believe and the Ulthuan says is going on, while the right model is what Cadaeth's words seem to be implying. This might get ugly.


As a side note, we shouldn't need to make a leyline only variant of this Waystone. Instead, we should be able to find existing Waystones in settlements along rivers, deconnect them, put one of our New Waystones in their place: and move the Old Waystone to where we only need a leyline Waystone.

That way we'll have improved the topography of the existing network by adding route redundancy and extra capacity while not wasting the riverine aspect of a Waystone.
 
They have to be known in some circles within Karaz-A-Karak though, unless Thorgrim is monitoring the eyes with the Throne and directing the patrols personally.

I don't think there's any reason to keep them secret from Dwarfs as a whole: it would be pretty good for Morale.
Dwarves are the very picture of "need to know" gone too far.
So while the Eyes of Grimnir might be know by more than just the royalty.
I would not be surprised if everyone aware of them was not sworn to complete secrecy.
 
As a side note, we shouldn't need to make a leyline only variant of this Waystone. Instead, we should be able to find existing Waystones in settlements along rivers, deconnect them, put one of our New Waystones in their place: and move the Old Waystone to where we only need a leyline Waystone.

That way we'll have improved the topography of the existing network by adding route redundancy and extra capacity while not wasting the riverine aspect of a Waystone.

There's an interesting thought. @Boney do we actually understand enough about Waystones to safely move the old ones around? Is that something we would have to spend an action figuring out? Or just a bad idea since it would piss off the elf mages in the Vortex and/or the high elves?
 
[X] Karak to Karak
Ask Karaz-a-Karak on behalf of Karak Eight Peaks.

[X] Runesmith to Runesmith
Ask the Karaz-a-Karak Runesmiths Guild on behalf of the Karak Azul Runesmiths Guild.

[X] Okri to Okri
Ask Kragg on behalf of yourself.

Better to keep this internal than to shout out to the world that there's a secret trade happening.
 
As a side note, we shouldn't need to make a leyline only variant of this Waystone. Instead, we should be able to find existing Waystones in settlements along rivers, deconnect them, put one of our New Waystones in their place: and move the Old Waystone to where we only need a leyline Waystone.
I mean, that's *an* option, yes. But making a cheaper leyline only waystone would save some money. And probably quite a bit of labor hauling multiple giant blocks of stone around different places. Though I suppose the swap out option would build some reinforcement into the network by adding the river redundancy in places.
 
I'm inclined to agree that the first new waystone being in Laurelorn may be the best option, if only because we first need to survey Sylvania and examine Kislev's network before rashly plugging things in. Laurelorn has probably surveyed their own network long before, too.

I completely agree with this, we could put the Waystone in Sylvania if we picked a place next to the Stirland network that has already been surveyed, but giving Laurelorn something to brag about is way more usefull diplomatically compared to our other options.
 
Something occurs: What do we actually need from asking? Because while we-the-readers and Mathilde's boundless curiosity would love to have the full Throne/Great Runes of Valaya lore dump… that isn't actionable information. It doesn't advance the project.
No what we need is permission to poke the Karaks and figure out how they gather, store and transmit magical energy. Schematics and explanations would be helpful but I have no doubt Mathilde and Thorek can puzzle it out on their own if they have access. With that info we can then get to work on replicating the infrastructure and installing it in all the new holds.

Because that is the real deliverable the Karaz Ankor is looking for. To no longer have an absolute upper limit on the amount of power they can generate. To no longer be thinking in terms of 'there can be this many living Dawi before we need to start turning off mega-projects'. To get another "but it is a road now, rather than a wall" moment.
 
Because that is the real deliverable the Karaz Ankor is looking for. To no longer have an absolute upper limit on the amount of power they can generate. To no longer be thinking in terms of 'there can be this many living Dawi before we need to start turning off mega-projects'. To get another "but it is a road now, rather than a wall" moment.
Hm. The problem is, they have an upper limit on runes that can use or dispose of Dhar. So even if we built more Karak waystones they'd still be absorbing more dhar without increasing their ability to dispose of it. So there'd still be an upper limit on Dawi. Though I guess at that point it's on the Runesmiths, or they can create a link at the other end of their network to send all the Dhar back out to the main network after they've stripped out the usable stuff.
 
I mean, that's *an* option, yes. But making a cheaper leyline only waystone would save some money. And probably quite a bit of labor hauling multiple giant blocks of stone around different places. Though I suppose the swap out option would build some reinforcement into the network by adding the river redundancy in places.

The other advantage is that this would allow us to reshuffle chains of Old Waystones from areas where they're less needed to areas where they're more needed. There may be, say, a line of Waystones that goes across country through uninhabited (by humans) forests before intersecting with a settlement on a river. If we can place a New Waystone in that settlement we could possibly remove several Old Waystones down the leyline from there, which could then be moved to where they're more useful.

There are also those Waystones we know of in Sylvania that are part of orphaned segments of the network that are channeling Dhar down leylines until they hit a missing Waystone.

We could then use these to do something like erect a temporary line of Waystones as a bridge to the main network from the end of a line connected to another nexus, and then reorganise the existing Sylvanian Old Waystones to feed into several New Waystones on the river. Once that's done we could disconnect the temporary link to another network and move the Old Waystones used to make it somewhere else.

This would hopefully only take a few New Waystones but would get a much larger number of Old Waystones that currently aren't connected to the wider network working safely again, not just making one place a bit cleaner and another much more corrupt.

Similar things would hopefully be possible with regards to the Black Water. We could build a temporary link to the main network with redeployed Old Waystones, then line the shores of the Black Water with permanently redeployed Old Waystones from somewhere in less urgent need and a single New Waystone at the headwaters of the Skull River. Then, after the leylines linking them have been built we can disconnect the temporary line of Old Waystones are redeploy them.

The main point is that we shouldn't look at places where we can swap one New Waystone for an Old one, but where we can swap one New for multiple Old, and what we can then do with small numbers of New and larger number of Old Waystones.

After all, that's the situation the Old World is likely to be in for a long time, so we should look to how we can optimise that mixture, including by passing through configurations that aren't permanent, but just exist temporarily to directly connect to the wider Network so leylines can be created, and then disconnected leaving isolated segments of the network linked to the wider while only by rivers.
 
I still think it would be a good idea to make a model or two (separate leyline and river) that is both cheaper and easier to make, so that we can spam it far more easily. While the main troublesome spots (Praag, Mordheim, Mousillon) will require maybe a dozen Waystones each, which we can cover with the current design, we'll need a lot of them to bolster the existing Network everywhere else:

Back-of-the-envelope maths say the Empire would need about four thousand total for full coverage, so about 300-400 per province. It's probably safe to assume that somewhere between half to three quarters of those are already in place.

So about 50-75% of the 4000 Waystones in the Empire are already in place, that means we'll need to build between one and two thousand of them for the Empire alone. That's without counting Kislev, Bretonnia and the rest of the Old World, or particularly damaged parts like Sylvania or Troll Country. Moving Waystones around might make the Network more efficient, but we'll almost certainly still need to build several thousand Waystones, for which having more spammable models that can avoid or mitigate the main production bottlenecks would be incredibly helpful.
 
The other advantage is that this would allow us to reshuffle chains of Old Waystones from areas where they're less needed to areas where they're more needed. There may be, say, a line of Waystones that goes across country through uninhabited (by humans) forests before intersecting with a settlement on a river. If we can place a New Waystone in that settlement we could possibly remove several Old Waystones down the leyline from there, which could then be moved to where they're more useful.

There are also those Waystones we know of in Sylvania that are part of orphaned segments of the network that are channeling Dhar down leylines until they hit a missing Waystone.

We could then use these to do something like erect a temporary line of Waystones as a bridge to the main network from the end of a line connected to another nexus, and then reorganise the existing Sylvanian Old Waystones to feed into several New Waystones on the river. Once that's done we could disconnect the temporary link to another network and move the Old Waystones used to make it somewhere else.

This would hopefully only take a few New Waystones but would get a much larger number of Old Waystones that currently aren't connected to the wider network working safely again, not just making one place a bit cleaner and another much more corrupt.

Similar things would hopefully be possible with regards to the Black Water. We could build a temporary link to the main network with redeployed Old Waystones, then line the shores of the Black Water with permanently redeployed Old Waystones from somewhere in less urgent need and a single New Waystone at the headwaters of the Skull River. Then, after the leylines linking them have been built we can disconnect the temporary line of Old Waystones are redeploy them.

The main point is that we shouldn't look at places where we can swap one New Waystone for an Old one, but where we can swap one New for multiple Old, and what we can then do with small numbers of New and larger number of Old Waystones.

After all, that's the situation the Old World is likely to be in for a long time, so we should look to how we can optimise that mixture, including by passing through configurations that aren't permanent, but just exist temporarily to directly connect to the wider Network so leylines can be created, and then disconnected leaving isolated segments of the network linked to the wider while only by rivers.

Speaking of orphaned lines, that is most of the Badlands as well and unlike places like Sylvania it has been taken over by greenskins who do not really care to take the orphan stones apart so there could potentially be dozens of them to move assuming we can.
 
One last reason to vote Karak is the implication of who Mathilde is and who Thorgrim is:
  1. She is the Loremaster who got the 'die well' note and then went on to reconquer a Karak and then gut a Waagh with a doom mountain, allwoing power into the network for the first time since Vlag and Dum was lost. Mathilde is the one who made the claxons stop
  2. More than that, she is the one who then went on an expedidion to Hell and not only found out the fate of Dum, but also brought Vlag back with 20K dwarfs still inside it and enough power in the network to power the Eyes of Grimnir, pivotal for Thorgrim's plans for the Silver Road
  3. Last but not least he knows what she has been doing all this time, investigating Waystones. It would be shocking to me if he is not expecting something like this conversation
  4. Finally on the other side if the High King snonewalls us we can do what no dwarf in good standing would do and point out the ways in which this would alienate Belegar. 'I need proof you are not a thief', coached in more diplomatic language perhaps, but that is the jist of it. At that point, what is he going to do, cause civil war over the person who canceled the extinction of his people wanting to know about the same mechanism she restored? I think he would literally no joke choose to go slayer over that being his legacy is that is what telling the truth requires. That said I do not think it is very likely. Dum knew about the flow and odds are good they knew how important it was given the length to which they were willing to go to keep things running
DP, this sort of reasoning is what lead me to vote for Okri to Okri. Think of who Kragg is !
  1. Kragg is the Greatest Runelord of the Karaz Ankor. He's a cultural touchstone, he's incredibly respected, and he's the greatest living expert in the runic secrets of the Golden Age.
  2. Kragg is the Runelord of Karaz-A-Karak. He's the well-trusted local expert that the High King had on hand (until he sent him to help Belegar). Kragg is not only famous and experienced - he's also the High King's trusted rune expert.
  3. Therefore it's quite possible the High King has already spoken about the flow of power with Kragg. And if Kragg doesn't already know, then Kragg is best-placed to ask the High King for more information. Mathilde has a good position to ask, but Kragg has an even better one.
And yes, I know some people think Thorek is Kragg's equal. There's no way Thorgrim thinks that. Kragg is from his own Karak, Kragg is older and even more traditionally respected, and we know Karaz-A-Karak think they own experts are always the best.
If anyone can ask the High King and hope to get a real answer, it'll be Kragg. And if Kragg would share what he's told with anyone, it'd be with Mathilde.
 
I still think it would be a good idea to make a model or two (separate leyline and river) that is both cheaper and easier to make, so that we can spam it far more easily. While the main troublesome spots (Praag, Mordheim, Mousillon) will require maybe a dozen Waystones each, which we can cover with the current design, we'll need a lot of them to bolster the existing Network everywhere else:



So about 50-75% of the 4000 Waystones in the Empire are already in place, that means we'll need to build between one and two thousand of them for the Empire alone. That's without counting Kislev, Bretonnia and the rest of the Old World, or particularly damaged parts like Sylvania or Troll Country. Moving Waystones around might make the Network more efficient, but we'll almost certainly still need to build several thousand Waystones, for which having more spammable models that can avoid or mitigate the main production bottlenecks would be incredibly helpful.

It really depends on what those production bottlenecks are, and for which type of Waystone.

For example, if the availability of high mages to make the stone flower capstone will be the dominant rate limiting factor of the New Waystone design, then another design using it doesn't help the production rate.

Speaking of orphaned lines, that is most of the Badlands as well and unlike places like Sylvania it has been taken over by greenskins who do not really care to take the orphan stones apart so there could potentially be dozens of them to move assuming we can.

I think although I'll have to check that idols of Gork/Mork may be built from Waystones, in which case there may not be that many left.

It's also probably much harder to get to and transport Waystones in the badlands as it's enemy territory. You'd need to send armies after them, and armies attract orcs looking for a fight like honey does flies.

In the Sylvania option, the existing Waystones are overall manufacturing Dhar, as they're sending both Dhar and the Winds down the leylines until they hit a blockage at which point I think all the Winds are turned into a large amount of Dhar. That means they're overall making the place worse. Rearranging the existing stones so that's not happening any more and instead the leylines terminate at rivers would be a lot more effective. You'd need to temporarily redeploy other Old Waystones from elsewhere in the network to allow the connection to make the leylines you need for this, but I think that's doable.

You may end up with some extra Sylvanian Old Waystones at the end that were in uninhabited locations, but in that case it's probably better to move them to increase Waystone density in particularly corrupted inhabited places in Sylvania.

And yes, I know some people think Thorek is Kragg's equal. There's no way Thorgrim thinks that. Kragg is from his own Karak, Kragg is older and even more traditionally respected, and we know Karaz-A-Karak think they own experts are always the best.
If anyone can ask the High King and hope to get a real answer, it'll be Kragg. And if Kragg would share what he's told with anyone, it'd be with Mathilde.

I think the big issue is whether Thorgrim has sworn an oath never to tell anyone but the heir to the High Kingship about this and other people on a white list about this.

If so, it doesn't matter how respected Kragg is, if he's not on the list he's not being told. And it's possible that the King of another Old Hold that is a major Waystone nexus may be on the list where a runelord wouldn't.

We're second guessing what the Ancestors or the High King at the time of the Waystone network construction told their successors to do, not what we think makes sense.
 
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DP, this sort of reasoning is what lead me to vote for Okri to Okri. Think of who Kragg is !
  1. Kragg is the Greatest Runelord of the Karaz Ankor. He's a cultural touchstone, he's incredibly respected, and he's the greatest living expert in the runic secrets of the Golden Age.
  2. Kragg is the Runelord of Karaz-A-Karak. He's the well-trusted local expert that the High King had on hand (until he sent him to help Belegar). Kragg is not only famous and experienced - he's also the High King's trusted rune expert.
  3. Therefore it's quite possible the High King has already spoken about the flow of power with Kragg. And if Kragg doesn't already know, then Kragg is best-placed to ask the High King for more information. Mathilde has a good position to ask, but Kragg has an even better one.
And yes, I know some people think Thorek is Kragg's equal. There's no way Thorgrim thinks that. Kragg is from his own Karak, Kragg is older and even more traditionally respected, and we know Karaz-A-Karak think they own experts are always the best.
If anyone can ask the High King and hope to get a real answer, it'll be Kragg. And if Kragg would share what he's told with anyone, it'd be with Mathilde.

See those are perfectly reasonable sane arguments, the problem is dwarfs are not sane and reasonable by humans standards not about this stuff. If the oath says 'only the high king and his heir' then those are the only people you tell, even if it makes no sense since after all the ancestors are axiomatically better than you and they set it up that way. All it would take is a break in the chain of knowledge for the runelord of KaK and that is it Kragg does not know because the person who does know thanks to the Throne was told to pass the information on to his heir and in the ever more extreme and insane game of telephone that is dawi tradition that morphed into only tell your heir.

For examples of stubborn stupidity: 'the High King is only allowed to sit on the Throne of Power'. This probably just started as as a sensible 'the high king should pay attention to the throne with all the strategic indicators', it has morphed into nonsense, but it is followed unquestioningly because of Tradition.
 
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@DragonParadox, @Alratan, if he's sworn to tell nobody but his heir then he isn't going to tell Belegar either... Belegar isn't the heir, and even if Belegar was he wouldn't break his oath either. At best he'd give vague hints - and Thorgrim would give hints to Kragg too, and he'd be more likely to give them to Kragg than to pick Belegar as his heir.
 
I think the big issue is whether Thorgrim has sworn an oath never to tell anyone but the heir to the High Kingship about this and other people on a white list about this.

If so, it doesn't matter how respected Kragg is, if he's not on the list he's not being told. And it's possible that the King of another Old Hold that is a major Waystone nexus may be on the list where a runelord wouldn't.

We're second guessing what the Ancestors or the High King at the time of the Waystone network construction told their successors to do, not what we think makes sense.

And even if not there is a solution to the problem 'make Belegar your heir'. If we put Thorgrim in the position of altering major policy, breaking his oaths or fracturing the Karaz Ankor my bet is that he will do the first before the second and the second before the third. Especially if the person putting this to him is the one who made the klaxon of extinction fall silent.
 
@DragonParadox, @Alratan, if he's sworn to tell nobody but his heir then he isn't going to tell Belegar either... Belegar isn't the heir, and even if Belegar was he wouldn't break his oath either. At best he'd give vague hints - and Thorgrim would give hints to Kragg too, and he'd be more likely to give them to Kragg than to pick Belegar as his heir.

We don't know he's sworn to only tell his heir. He could be sworn to only tell people on the ancestor's white list. We don't know what the white list is.

It could, for example, include Kings of Old Holds who ask about it, because of the risk of them switching the energy flow off if the High King doesn't, while excluding Runesmiths who don't already know on the grounds that it's their own teachers' jobs to decide if they're trustworthy enough to know, but the risk with other Kings is to great to take that approach.

As I say, this is a question of second guessing the ancestors, both big and little A, and what they'd have told or suggested to their successors was appropriate.

And even if not there is a solution to the problem 'make Belegar your heir'. If we put Thorgrim in the position of altering major policy, breaking his oaths or fracturing the Karaz Ankor my bet is that he will do the first before the second and the second before the third. Especially if the person putting this to him is the one who made the klaxon of extinction fall silent.

Or even gaming it by making Belegar his heir temporarily
 
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As a side note, we shouldn't need to make a leyline only variant of this Waystone. Instead, we should be able to find existing Waystones in settlements along rivers, deconnect them, put one of our New Waystones in their place: and move the Old Waystone to where we only need a leyline Waystone.

That way we'll have improved the topography of the existing network by adding route redundancy and extra capacity while not wasting the riverine aspect of a Waystone.
I think this is a great idea, and if we can do this, it would be super helpful. Unfortunately, we know that the leyline network and/or Caledor Dragontamer objects to people turning waystones on and off again a bunch. With only codephrases and no clear way to communicate, a massive operation that routinely turned off waystones to replace them with new ones might run into problems.
 
We don't know he's sworn to only tell his heir. He could be sworn to only tell people on the ancestor's white list. We don't know what the white list is.

It could, for example, include Kings of Old Holds who ask about it, because of the risk of them switching the energy flow off if the High King doesn't, while excluding Runesmiths who don't already know on the grounds that it's their own teachers' jobs to decide if they're trustworthy enough to know, but the risk with other Kings is to great to take that approach.

As I say, this is a question of second guessing the ancestors, both big and little A, and what they'd have told or suggested to their successors was appropriate.

We do have some indication that the kings of the Old Holds knew, Borek knew something and he was of the royal line of Dum, not a runesmith. Though of course that is not an guarantee that Thorgrim is allowed to tell him.
 
The problem with Okri to Okri is that I just don't think it'll work.

Kragg likes us. Kragg is willing to hear us out on off-the-wall magic suggestions. Kragg owes us a favour.

Kragg took one look at AV and only heard us out for politeness' sake. Kragg looks at Thorek and thinks him mediocre, because he's getting involved in politics, instead of sticking to runesmithing.

Kragg is a Runelord's Runelord, as hidebound as they come. If we ask him, he'll hear us out for politeness' sake. And then he'll consider the fundamental teachings of the guild he's dedicated his life to, and decline because it touches upon runesmith secrets, and we aren't a runesmith.
 
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This vote is really about the political consequences of asking in the first place. Mathilde having a quiet chat with Kragg in the back of his workshop has a very different vibe to an official ambassador from the Empire waving a treaty so fresh the ink is still wet, petitioning the High King to respond to a Freedom of Information request.

And I think the Karak to Karak option has the best possible outcome, but also risks the worst consequences as well.

Scenario One: King Belegar approaches the High King and inquires about what, exactly, is the High King doing with all the energy he is taking from the network. Thorgrim explains that it is to power the Runes of Valaya, and the rift in the Karaz Ankor is healed because that's a good answer.

Scenario Two: King Belegar approaches the High King and inquires about what, exactly, is the High King doing with all the energy he is taking from the network. Thorgrim refuses to explain. Belegar uses this to rally the other dwarf kings to his side, claiming that KaK is stealing magical energy from the other holds (and he has the evidence to prove it). The rift widens, and a dwarf civil war risks breaking out.

I think Scenario One is much more likely to happen, and if Thorgrim has to abuse a loophole by making Belegar his heir to do so, then all the better. Sure, I don't want to understate the risks of a Dwarf Civil War—but if "die well" didn't set one of, then I don't think this will either.

Any option involving asking the Runesmiths guild risks being shut down as "guild secrets", and the Empire doesn't have the leverage to move Thorgrim if he doesn't want to be moved.

But Karak to Karak puts pressure on Thorgrim to answer, because if he shuts us down, then that affects him. His precious Silver Road Wars will fail if the other kings lose trust and faith in him, and that incentives him to respond positively to our request. It puts him between a rock and a hard place—break tradition, or break his empire. And I think, if push comes to shove, he'll choose to break tradition.
 
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