Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Garlak]

Maybe '-az' came from Karaz?

Thus, it's not that grammar bends around Karaz and -az. It's that the language use came from the importance mountains played in Dwarf psychology and mythology and linguistics in the first place. Perhaps Dwarfs started referring to some important things with '-az' after mountain. ((So I guess the grammar does still bend around it. But it's because they started using mountains as a reference in their word usage. The grammar and culture grew out of that.))

Because mountains were their go-to example of the most real and solid thing, a physical thing that is also an exemplar or important concept, they began to export the suffix -az to other things that they considered very important or physical or solid?

 

[Alliterate]

Because mountains were their go-to example of the most real and solid thing, a physical thing that is also an exemplar or important concept, they began to export the suffix -az to other things that they considered very important or physical or solid?

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Like, say, how we're super into Bookaz? And all our efforts bend towards the goal of acquiring more Bookaz?

Could be, I could see it.

 

[Garlak]

Heh, maybe. "This really looks like a mountain-esque stone-thing," says guy trying to give a compliment or to relate a thing to his experiences, but who has only ever seen and lived in a mountain.

The other candidate for super-important-thing that might have influenced grammar, would be the axe. Which is "az" in Khazalid.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

The grammar of Khazalid gets weird around concepts they particularly respect or are particularly embodied - they 'upgrade' them from the usual -ak for concept to the -az of a physical object, sort of considering them 'realer'. That means the definitions start getting crowded with things like 'karaz', which could just mean 'a particular mountain' or it could mean 'true endurance'.

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In fairness to Khazalid, it's endured for a remarkably long time with relatively little linguistic drift while still being quite practical and sufficiently adaptable to new things. It even got the stamp of approval of a dragon thoroughly fused with the wind of enlightenment for being a very precise language in contrast to Eltharin.

The way you've described Eltharin makes me think it was designed to give historians and researchers conniptions and create frequent misunderstandings.

The fact that Anoqueyan is even worse while still being much closer to the language of the Old Ones is a puzzle befitting the mysterious contradictions the elves love.

 

[deathofrats0808]

The fact that Anoqueyan is even worse while still being much closer to the language of the Old Ones is a puzzle befitting the mysterious contradictions the elves love.

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Well, one, we don't know whether Anoqueyån is better or worse. Two, Eltharin is tangly like that partially because the richest source Boney has to work with are Eltharin runes which have multiple meanings, so even though there are sources that heavily imply Eltharin is very precise it's much less work for Boney to use the existing words. Three we don't know if the Old Ones language is precise or not, so the closeness of a langauge to it can't be used as any sort of guide on how the language is going to be.

 

[Orbmorb]

My pet theory for Elathrin is that it started out as a reasonably straightforward language, but every new generation of elven youths keeps picking a couple words to use ironically. The inverted usage never completely overtakes the original because the older generation takes millenia to completely die off, so by the current era every word is loaded with extra meanings born from charioteer slang coopted by poets.

 

[Andres]

Hence why 'bad' means both 'bad' and 'good'.

 

[hugo239111]

My pet theory for Elathrin is that it started out as a reasonably straightforward language, but every new generation of elven youths keeps picking a couple words to use ironically. The inverted usage never completely overtakes the original because the older generation takes millenia to completely die off, so by the current era every word is loaded with extra meanings born from charioteer slang coopted by poets.

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This... actually makes a disturbing amount of sense, especially once you add in the pride of elves. Each one thinks their way is the best and everyone else is wrong so each language group would develop in an isolated environment, any loan words or meanings would be immediately changed to fit their own preference and preconceptions. Leading to even more disparity (if I recall correctly in this quest it requires location and year to get the proper context of the translation/reading/words) across the language. It really would give new meaning to the whole my kingdom is the best thing every elf has going on.

 

[Andres]

Am I misremembering or was it a Middle Mountains throng that marched into Laurelorn and got Grey Lorded? I can't find anything referring to that in Archives and Salzenmund. Closest I can find is Salzenmund saying it was an Azgal throng that destroyed Kor Immarmor, but not that the same throng was the one that marched on Tor Lithanel as happened in DL, so this'd be one of the incompatibilities. (Salzenmund came out after that update was written.)

Also, how come the Eonir never rebuilt Kor Immarmor? I remember something about Thorek setting up new shipments of marble to Laurelorn, so did they just not have proper building material?

EDIT: I was misremembering. The Middle Mountains' involvement in Laurelorn was their lack of involvement, which Thorek was upset about.

 

[DeusFerreus]

Also, how come the Eonir never rebuilt Kor Immarmor? I remember something about Thorek setting up new shipments of marble to Laurelorn, so did they just not have proper building material?

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While building materials were a factor, it was a minor one, the main obstacle were politics. People that were responsible making such major decisions as whether or not to rebuild Kor Immarmor would have been high ranking Eonir noble houses, and doing so would have been directly agains their interests - to them limited city real-estate (which they have stranglehold on) is very much a feature, not a bug.

 

[Andres]

While building materials were a factor, it was a minor one, the main obstacle were politics. People were be making such major decisions as whether or not to rebuild Kor Immarmor were high ranking Eonir noble houses, and doing so would have been directly agains their interests- to them limited city real-estate (which they have stranglehold on) is very much a feature, not a bug.

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Couldn't refugees from Kor Immarmor or the Forestborn independently decide to rebuild it?

 

[Mopman43]

Couldn't refugees from Kor Immarmor or the Forestborn independently decide to rebuild it?

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The necessary resources to rebuild a city are probably well beyond what a small group of Eonir can accomplish.

Either they would need the backing of a Great House, which they aren't going to get, or they would need to mobilize a substantial portion of society, which is rather difficult to do.

 

[reignonyrparade]

I would imagine that in the moment there was the most demand for it, was also the moment people weren't confident it wouldn't just get razed by dwarves again.

 

[Valmond]

They've made do for the past couple thousand years, i doubt anyone is in a hurry to start on rebuilding now.
And there would be quite a lot of vested interests against it.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

Is there an apocrypha or informational post showing all of the approved Windherding enchantment ideas, with an explanation as to what they would do?

I feel like we could build more support for Windherding enchantments and spells if we could point to a central place to see the ideas.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Is there an apocrypha or informational post showing all of the approved Windherding enchantment ideas, with an explanation as to what they would do?

I feel like we could build more support for Windherding enchantments and spells if we could point to a central place to see the ideas.

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There's approved spells which includes a number of Windherd ideas, but only includes Boney-approved items and is a year out of date at this point.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

They've made do for the past couple thousand years, i doubt anyone is in a hurry to start on rebuilding now.
And there would be quite a lot of vested interests against it.

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Now, though, it's a potentially different story. Without the threat of Nordland or the dwarves coming and attacking, a slow rebuilding of the city might be a path forward for expansion. There's enough legacy and pride on the line to give the Great Houses reason to back reconstruction and treat the rebuild city as an expansion on their existing setup. And it's not like outside interests would be able to compete with them inside of Laurelorn like that.

 

[Valmond]

Now, though, it's a potentially different story. Without the threat of Nordland or the dwarves coming and attacking, a slow rebuilding of the city might be a path forward for expansion. There's enough legacy and pride on the line to give the Great Houses reason to back reconstruction and treat the rebuild city as an expansion on their existing setup. And it's not like outside interests would be able to compete with them inside of Laurelorn like that.

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Expanding the city is being planned.
But building another city, now that is very different matter.
It will probably happen eventually, but probably decades, if not centuries, in the future without some very drastic changes in Laurelorn politics.

 

[hugo239111]

Expanding the city is being planned.
But building another city, now that is very different matter.
It will probably happen eventually, but probably decades, if not centuries, in the future without some very drastic changes in Laurelorn politics.

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Politically it would be rather fraught on the Empire and dwarven side as well. Recompense for slain dwarves was extracted by the destruction of Elven cities during the war of the beard. The Elves like quite a bit of a "buffer" zone around their own cities that they consider their territory as well (rule of thumb appears to be 40-100 miles around the city). The only way I can see the Empire being okay losing that territory would be a full commitment of aid for some task that isn't magical.

Very pie in the sky idea and very much one that wouldn't be done without at least a decade or two of prep but a reclamation of the Drakwald as a province is the only thing I could see getting everyone on board. Which of course has it's own problems with the Eonir.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

Politically it would be rather fraught on the Empire and dwarven side as well. Recompense for slain dwarves was extracted by the destruction of Elven cities during the war of the beard. The Elves like quite a bit of a "buffer" zone around their own cities that they consider their territory as well (rule of thumb appears to be 40-100 miles around the city). The only way I can see the Empire being okay losing that territory would be a full commitment of aid for some task that isn't magical.

Very pie in the sky idea and very much one that wouldn't be done without at least a decade or two of prep but a reclamation of the Drakwald as a province is the only thing I could see getting everyone on board. Which of course has it's own problems with the Eonir.

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Isn't Kor Immramor (spelling?) well within the forest of Laurelorn?

Regardless, I wouldn't expect such an undertaking to happen soon. But I imagine at some point some enterprising kithbands will recognize the opportunity to do something game-changing and potentially get a Great House or several to back their efforts in exchange for a slice of the pie.

 

[hugo239111]

Isn't Kor Immramor (spelling?) well within the forest of Laurelorn?

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Kind of but not really, it is right on the border of the silver hills which means close to the ruins of Oldenitz and Salzenmund. With all the tensions already with Nordland plopping a new city down within (best guess) a dozen miles of their capital from which you just ripped out from it the two main economic drivers of silversmithing and carpentry. Both based off the area you are now settling and very quietly purged of all signs of human habitation.

 

[ReImagined]

Isn't Kor Immramor (spelling?) well within the forest of Laurelorn?

Regardless, I wouldn't expect such an undertaking to happen soon. But I imagine at some point some enterprising kithbands will recognize the opportunity to do something game-changing and potentially get a Great House or several to back their efforts in exchange for a slice of the pie.

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Kind of but not really, it is right on the border of the silver hills which means close to the ruins of Oldenitz and Salzenmund. With all the tensions already with Nordland plopping a new city down within (best guess) a dozen miles of their capital from which you just ripped out from it the two main economic drivers of silversmithing and carpentry. Both based off the area you are now settling and very quietly purged of all signs of human habitation.

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According to the thread canonical map listed in the Collection of Important Information Threadmark, it's about ~75 miles from Tor Lithanel to Kor Immarmor, and then another ~75 miles from Kor Immarmor to Salzenmund. Oldenlitz is between the latter two, around ~50 miles east of Kor Immarmor and ~25 miles west of Salzenmund.

 

[BurnNote]

My pet theory for Elathrin is that it started out as a reasonably straightforward language, but every new generation of elven youths keeps picking a couple words to use ironically. The inverted usage never completely overtakes the original because the older generation takes millenia to completely die off, so by the current era every word is loaded with extra meanings born from charioteer slang coopted by poets.

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That makes a lot of sense. And elves adore being deliberately contradictory. Either that's inherent, and the language never had a chance except to be Like That, or it's not but at some point they started leaving into it and that would've also accelerated the process.

Also, I firmly belive there are writer elves who think the modern language is debased and should be brought closer to the older, "purer" version. Who then proceed to make the spelling a complete mess, which sometimes but not always affects how it's pronounced, sometimes creates new words, and also sometimes they just get the etymology wrong.

 

[deathofrats0808]

According to the thread canonical map listed in the Collection of Important Information Threadmark, it's about ~75 miles from Tor Lithanel to Kor Immarmor, and then another ~75 miles from Kor Immarmor to Salzenmund. Oldenlitz is between the latter two, around ~50 miles east of Kor Immarmor and ~25 miles west of Salzenmund.

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Oldenlitz also doesn't exist anymore tbf. The three surviving settlements are Hargendorf, Dietershafen and Neues Emskrank. If one is being cynical about it, they left the coastal settlements alone to serve as a buffer.

 

[Andres]

So the story goes that Teclis showed up to the druids, showed them they were worshipping Ghyran, and then two thirds joined up with the Colleges while the rest went back into the woods, where they presumably still exist to this day.

But there were non-Ghyran druids, weren't there? The ones in White Dwarf 311 get the choice of Lore of Death and Lore of Ulgu. (No Lore of Life, but that might just be because they're undead, or because they're in an undead army and that lore is mechanically useless to them). What happened to them? Did they join the Colleges too? If they were non-woodlands type druids, maybe they got almost entirely wiped out by the cults by the time Teclis showed up.