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I think you are being a little too swift to dismiss the Cityborn. They have most of the elves which means most of the mages by volume. I would be surprised if there is no significant cityborn representation in the project.
We have no idea that they have most of the Elves? One could argue that there are more Forestborn but they're spread over a very large area and as such are less centralised. It's not like we have an accurate census of demographic data.
 
We have no idea that they have most of the Elves? One could argue that there are more Forestborn but they're spread over a very large area and as such are less centralised. It's not like we have an accurate census of demographic data.
But considering the population density is enormous (with most elves only being able to rent bunk space) which put them at similar/ higher than most modern human cities (and i don't mean warhammer humans).
If you look at rural/city divide, the bulk of the population is always in the city.
Nl has 93% of the population living in cities, france has 81% and Germany 77%. Considering the danger level of the forest life, but also the disparity in area covered (there is only one city, after all), a 60/40 or a 70/30 split seems reasonable.
DragonParadox's assumption is probably correct
 
Most people can't afford much living space, but the roads and public areas are pretty wide, so i suspect the population density is lot lower than one might expect.
 
But considering the population density is enormous (with most elves only being able to rent bunk space) which put them at similar/ higher than most modern human cities (and i don't mean warhammer humans).
If you look at rural/city divide, the bulk of the population is always in the city.
Nl has 93% of the population living in cities, france has 81% and Germany 77%. Considering the danger level of the forest life, but also the disparity in area covered (there is only one city, after all), a 60/40 or a 70/30 split seems reasonable.
DragonParadox's assumption is probably correct
Mathilde says that the city isn't even as crowded as Altdorf or the major human cities. The reason is that their streets are wide and there's constraints on size through the walls and every house having to be two stories, and underground digging being forbidden. Combined with all the artifical constrictions, I bet a lot of the "density" is artifical inflation to prevent the Major Houses from losing value. Combine that with the fact that the City is quite frankly tiny in comparison the gigantic area that Laurelorn covers, the fact that the Eonir are magic capable elves with survival skills surpassing your average human, the existence of forest beings that they could make bargains with, and there's a dozen different ways you can assume that Forestborn are larger in population if you count every single Ward and compare it to one city.
 
We have no idea that they have most of the Elves? One could argue that there are more Forestborn but they're spread over a very large area and as such are less centralised. It's not like we have an accurate census of demographic data.

They have most of the military and political power by a wide margin, if there was anything like parity between them in magical firepower that would not be the case IMO.
 
They have most of the military and political power by a wide margin, if there was anything like parity between them in magical firepower that would not be the case IMO.
Yeah, this is correct. If you had said from the beginning that they have greater magical power I would agree with you. The advantages of the Forestborn are not that they are superior in magical power, the Cityborn are superior in that regard, it is that they spend a lot more time in the forest and are probably much more familiar with the forest beings and waytrees than your average city elf. They provide a different perspective to the cloistered elite.

Also, the reason the Cityborn are so magically powerful is that they have an actual military. The forestborn are just a militia with leather and bark armor compared to Ithilmar, the city has all the artifacts and libraries. Combined with the lack of density of forestborn, and you end up with a piddly force compared to the Toriour.
 
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Yeah, this is correct. If you had said from the beginning that they have greater magical power I would agree with you. The advantages of the Forestborn are not that they are superior in magical power, the Cityborn are superior in that regard, it is that they spend a lot more time in the forest and are probably much more familiar with the forest beings and waytrees than your average city elf. They provide a different perspective to the cloistered elite.

Also, the reason the Cityborn are so magically powerful is that they have an actual military. The forestborn are just a militia with leather and bark armor compared to Ithilmar, the city has all the artifacts and libraries. Combined with the lack of density of forestborn, and you end up with a piddly force compared to the Toriour.

The distinction you are making between magical power and magical skill does not seem to map on how magic has been represented in this quest. Knowledge is power and the reverse is also true. You have more time for complex arcane research which you do not have to spend most of your time not being eaten by beastmen, so I stand by my statement that a significant number of the mages in the project will end up being Cityborn. I mean look at how many of the Major Houses have their own useful mages, they are all cityborn.
 
The distinction you are making between magical power and magical skill does not seem to map on how magic has been represented in this quest. Knowledge is power and the reverse is also true. You have more time for complex arcane research which you do not have to spend most of your time not being eaten by beastmen, so I stand by my statement that a significant number of the mages in the project will end up being Cityborn. I mean look at how many of the Major Houses have their own useful mages, they are all cityborn.
You can develop your magic through scholarly avenues that aren't libraries and laboratory research. Lots of Mathilde's knowledge comes from practical experience through fighting and seeing a variety of different magical traditions and experiencing things for herself that your average Altdorf scholar would never see. Yes the cityborn will have a lot of scholarly power, but what does it matter if most of them have never integrated with the forest, spoken and parlayed with the beings in it and gotten to experience the magic of the waytrees for most of their lives?

The Forestborn are not going to be strictly stronger or better, but they are a different perspective, and that is very useful in a research project. They're also less constrained by the annoying political machinations that the Major Houses are sure to shove us into when we get involved with them.
 
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Given that most of those bargains are explicitly in the hands of the cityborn and they use them as a political leverage I think the notion that the cityborn are cut off from the spirits rather dubious.
 
And with both of your captives still held in the grip of Mockery of Death, you finally find an ideal purpose for your earliest magical discovery: Mathilde's Mystical Matrix. With a deft grip on Ulgu, you weave strands of magic inside the torsos of each of your prisoners, and once the web of magical power is complete you lodge within it the fully-formed spell of Mockery of Death. Should either be able to escape from their cages - unlikely, but both Skaven and Druchii are not to be underestimated - they will run into the Alarm on the door, which will both inform you and collapse the Matrix inside of them and unleash the spell it contains.
@Boney I have a question about this moment. I noticed that Mathilde's Mystical Matrix doesn't work on Wizards and Magical Creatures:
Mathilde's Mystical Matrix: A means of holding a spell in stasis inside a living creature. It is limited in that it can only contain spells that would normally be cast on someone else, and can't be used on Wizards or magical creatures, but it takes only an hour to set up and requires no instruments or ingredients. It was adapted from a similar mechanism used by Sylvanian necromancers to work with Ulgu instead; the Amber and Jade Orders have attempted to adapt it to their Winds.
For the purposes of the spell, MMM works on Elves? I assumed at first they would be default considered Wizards, but maybe the part that distrupts MMM is being saturated with a single wind like a Human Wizard. Is that the case?
 
@Boney I have a question about this moment. I noticed that Mathilde's Mystical Matrix doesn't work on Wizards and Magical Creatures:

For the purposes of the spell, MMM works on Elves? I assumed at first they would be default considered Wizards, but maybe the part that distrupts MMM is being saturated with a single wind like a Human Wizard. Is that the case?

It could technically be used on Wizards that didn't have an Arcane Mark, hadn't cast any spells recently, and didn't cast any spells at all while the Matrix was within them. Mathilde thought it reasonably safe to assume that the Druchii wasn't a spellcaster, and even if he was him using magic would collapse the Matrix and knock him out for a week.
 
It could technically be used on Wizards that didn't have an Arcane Mark, hadn't cast any spells recently, and didn't cast any spells at all while the Matrix was within them. Mathilde thought it reasonably safe to assume that the Druchii wasn't a spellcaster, and even if he was him using magic would collapse the Matrix and knock him out for a week.
I somehow forgot that male Druchii are forbidden from casting magic. Yeah that's a safe assumption, although I guess it's neat to find out what happens when you cast a spell with the Matrix on you.
 
I just had an idea.

@Boney: would assisting the development of an alternate wind version version of Mathilde's Mystical Matrix be a viable action for WEBMAT? With Mathilde helping with the theory side?
 
@Boney: would assisting the development of an alternate wind version version of Mathilde's Mystical Matrix be a viable action for WEBMAT? With Mathilde helping with the theory side?

It would, but it's the sort of thing that could be done from the comfort of Altdorf and there isn't really any significant advantage that WEB-MAT would provide that those that have already tried and failed lacked.
 
[ ] Personal: Xeno-Affinity
Your circle of friends and acquaintances includes Dwarves, Halflings, seven flavours of Wizard, spiders, a wolf, a litter of wolf-rats, and to your surprise, one Skaven. Who can predict the benefits to cultivating an ability to find friendship amongst those most different from you?
It's been a little while since this excerpt, so I want to track down what we've gotten to join that circle of friends and acquaintances:

We managed to get the final flavor of Wizard with Horstmann, an Ice Dragon, a former Dragon Prince and his Star Dragon (once wasn't enough to consider him an acquaintance, but twice might?), Runelords, an Ice Witch, Eonir (we're getting there), and even a tentative acquaintanceship with that nice Untamed Shaman of the Eight of the Dolgan.

Please include any I missed.
 
I would say that Cadaeth did tempt Mathilde.
We eventually did not bite, but i assure you that the presence of the stupid sexy forest was not a non issue in deciding what to do next.
 
The 7010 Council of Kings
In Grungni's name, High King Thorgrim Grudgebearer summons the Kings of the Karaz Ankor to a Council of Kings at Karaz-a-Karak to discuss and decide matters of great import to the realm...

King Belegar frowns in thought as he and his brother-kings and sister-queen are led on a long, winding path through the halls of Karaz-a-Karak. He lived his childhood in this mountain, and never before had he stepped foot in these passages. He was quite certain that they, like most of the Karak, had been sealed at some point in the prior generations as the population of the Karak had dwindled.

As was so often the case in recent years, Belegar's mind drifts to the question of Karaz-a-Karak. Ever since his ever-reliable Loremaster had uncovered the matter of the siphoned energy, he had wondered what purpose Karaz-a-Karak had been putting it to. Was this part of the answer? Was it somehow needed to reopen sealed portions of the Karak? Was the High King planning to take a page from his own book and start trying to lure in settlers from other Holds? It was hard enough to convince a Clan to uproot themselves to build a new life from scratch already, it would only become more so if Everpeak itself started pursuing the very same goal. Perhaps he should have brought Mathilde along on this, so that her keen senses could have assayed whatever it was the High King was up to in these long-abandoned halls.

At last the courtier leads the monarchs through a set of double doors, and despite having travelled throughout the Karaz Ankor and having seen most of the wonders it had to offer, Belegar could not prevent his eyes from growing wide. The hall they entered was larger than his own Clan Hall and every wall was lined with four rows of large and seemingly identical clear jewels. In the middle of the room stood the High King, and Belegar felt his stomach churn. Once he had looked up to the High King, but time and circumstance had revealed to him the true nature of the Dwarf he had once so admired.

Thorgrim surveys the array of crowns before him, a veritable mountain range of precious metals studded with the finest of jewels. "I have been your High King for one hundred and eighty-three years," he intones, "and I was chosen to be that King by the Council of Kings of that time for the promises I made, of reclamation and retribution. In doing so I claimed a crown that would otherwise have gone to King Ungrim or to King Belegar's grandfather. To fulfil those promises, the first act I performed with the Dragon Crown atop my brow was to lead the Throng of Karaz-a-Karak against the greenskins of Black Fire Pass alongside the Throng of Karak Hirn, and on that day we struck out several old and bitter Grudges. But Black Fire Pass has significance beyond being a place where the hated enemy dwelled, and beyond the trade that has passed through it ever since. It was the place where High King Kurgan fought alongside a human Chieftain by the name of Sigmar, and in doing so forever entwined the fates of our two peoples. And while there's many a time that Sigmar's heirs have fallen short of the example their ancestor set, I would call a liar any Dawi who would claim that we have not failed the example set by our own forebears.

"In the time since the battle in Black Fire Pass, I have spilled much blood to strike out many old Grudges, but never since have I done so much to fulfil the other half of the promise I made. In my focus on thinning the Dammaz Kron I have turned my 'Age of Reckoning' into a Slayer Oath for our entire people. But as I sought a noble doom for the Karaz Ankor, its Kings proved beyond any doubt that the honour of the Dawi still lives. With hope and bravery did Karak Norn, Karak Izor, Karak Hirn, and Barak Varr lend Clan Angrund all the might and materiel they could spare, and Karak Eight Peaks is now reclaimed and redeemed, and Karak Azul reconnected to the rest of the realm. With cunning and ingenuity did Zhufbar and Karak Kadrin devise a way to send an expedition to investigate the fate of fallen Karag Dum, and in doing so found a way to rescue Karak Vlag from the clutches of Chaos. And even as I speak great canals are being dug to link the waters of Zhufbar and Barak Varr with the rivers of the Empire. I sing the death-song for an Empire that has not been so large and interconnected since the Time of Woes. I act as Grimnir striking out alone into the northern wastes, when I should be Grungni leading his people into a golden future!

"No more. For the first time in three thousand years, there is a Dwarfhold anchoring four of the five navigable passes through our mountains. If we had all five, we would be in a position to reach agreements with the Umgi nations to guarantee the safety of travellers and vigilance against threats from the east, in exchange for a portion of the wealth that passes through our mountains and promises of mutual support against significant threats. But we cannot yet claim to rule the mountains that our Ancestors left to us. So in the coming years, mercenary forces from Barak Varr will work to secure the western approach to Mad Dog Pass, while Watchtower-Clans who have been living in the Grey Mountains for millennia will re-establish themselves in their ancient homes with every assistance from Karaz-a-Karak. And when sufficient forces have been gathered, I will personally lead an attack to retake Mount Silverspear and return it to the control of Clan Gunnisson. As we all know, it fell to the greenskins during the early centuries of the Time of Woes in what is now known as the Silver Road Wars. What few remember is that part of the reason it was lost is that an ancient wonder from the time of the Ancestor Gods that watched over the Silver Road was blinded by those tumultuous times.

"But now..." High King Thorgrim Grudgebearer spreads his arms, and each of the jewels inset on the walls begins to glow. "The Eyes of Grimnir will open once more." With a wave of illumination, an image projects from each one of the thousands of jewels, each showing a different part of a long, rocky road through the mountains. The images change after a few seconds, and then there's a low tone as one becomes framed in red light, and the image grows until it centers on a band of Goblins riding wolves along the road. Another tone sounds, and another image is framed in red, this time warning of a small group of Orcs on a mountainside peering over a rocky barrier at the road below. As more tones sound, the High King's smile grows. "That which is wrong with the world that we cannot fix with the blades of our axes, we shall surely rebuild."
 
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Given that most of those bargains are explicitly in the hands of the cityborn and they use them as a political leverage I think the notion that the cityborn are cut off from the spirits rather dubious.
That depends on if they can call upon those pacts outside of war. And the beings they call upon are linked to the forest (for all we know they've bargained with apparitions). And also if they have more pacts rather than just more powerful beings they're linked with.
 
In Grungni's name, High King Thorgrim Grudgebearer summons the Kings of the Karaz Ankor to a Council of Kings at Karaz-a-Karak to discuss and decide matters of great import to the realm...

King Belegar frowns in thought as he and his brother-kings and sister-queen are led on a long, winding path through the halls of Karaz-a-Karak. He lived his childhood in this mountain, and never before had he stepped foot in these passages. He was quite certain that they, like most of the Karak, had been sealed at some point in the prior generations as the population of the Karak had dwindled.

As was so often the case in recent years, Belegar's mind drifts to the question of Karaz-a-Karak. Ever since his ever-reliable Loremaster had uncovered the matter of the siphoned energy, he had wondered what purpose Karaz-a-Karak had been putting it to. Was this part of the answer? Was it somehow needed to reopen sealed portions of the Karak? Was the High King planning to take a page from his own book and start trying to lure in settlers from other Holds? It was hard enough to convince a Clan to uproot themselves to build a new life from scratch already, it would only become more so if Everpeak itself started pursuing the very same goal. Perhaps he should have brought Mathilde along on this, so that her keen senses could have assayed whatever it was the High King was up to in these long-abandoned halls.

At last the courtier leads the monarchs through a set of double doors, and despite having travelled throughout the Karaz Ankor and having seen most of the wonders it had to offer, Belegar could not prevent his eyes from growing wide. The hall they entered was larger than his own Clan Hall and every wall was lined with a four rows of large and seemingly identical clear jewels. In the middle of the room stood the High King, and Belegar felt his stomach churn. Once he had looked up to the High King, but time and circumstance had revealed to him the true nature of the Dwarf he had once so admired.

Thorgrim surveys the array of crowns before him, a veritable mountain range of precious metals studded with the finest of jewels. "I have been your High King for one hundred and eighty-three years," he intones, "and I was chosen to be that King by the Council of Kings of that time for the promises I made, of reclamation and retribution. In doing so I claimed a crown that would otherwise have gone to King Ungrim or to King Belegar's grandfather. To fulfil those promises, the first act I performed with the Dragon Crown atop my brow was to lead the Throng of Karaz-a-Karak against the greenskins of Black Fire Pass alongside the Throng of Karak Hirn, and on that day we struck out several old and bitter Grudges. But Black Fire Pass has significance beyond being a place where the hated enemy dwelled, and beyond the trade that has passed through it ever since. It was the place where High King Kurgan fought alongside a human Chieftain by the name of Sigmar, and in doing so forever entwined the fates of our two peoples. And while there's many a time that Sigmar's heirs have fallen short of the example their ancestor set, I would call a liar any Dawi who would claim that we have not failed the example set by our own forebears.

"In the time since the battle in Black Fire Pass, I have spilled much blood to strike out many old Grudges, but never since have I done so much to fulfil the other half of the promise I made. In my focus on thinning the Dammaz Kron I have turned my 'Age of Reckoning' into a Slayer Oath for our entire people. But as I sought a noble doom for the Karaz Ankor, its Kings proved beyond any doubt that the honour of the Dawi still lives. With hope and bravery did Karak Norn, Karak Izor, Karak Hirn, and Barak Varr lend Clan Angrund all the might and materiel they could spare, and Karak Eight Peaks is now reclaimed and redeemed, and Karak Azul reconnected to the rest of the realm. With cunning and ingenuity did Zhufbar and Karak Kadrin devise a way to send an expedition to investigate the fate of fallen Karag Dum, and in doing so found a way to rescue Karak Vlag from the clutches of Chaos. And even as I speak great canals are being dug to link the waters of Zhufbar and Barak Varr with the rivers of the Empire. I sing the death-song for an Empire that has not been so large and interconnected since the Time of Woes. I act as Grungni striking out alone into the northern wastes, when I should be Grungni leading his people into a golden future!

"No more. For the first time in three thousand years, there is a Dwarfhold anchoring four of the five navigable passes through our mountains. If we had all five, we would be in a position to reach agreements with the Umgi nations to guarantee the safety of travellers and the vigilance against threats from the east, in exchange for a portion of the wealth that passes through our mountains and promises of mutual support against significant threats. But we cannot yet claim to rule the mountains that our Ancestors left to us. So in the coming years, mercenary forces from Barak Varr will work to secure the western approach to Mad Dog Pass, while Watchtower-Clans who have been living in the Grey Mountains for millennia will re-establish themselves in their ancient homes with every assistance from Karaz-a-Karak. And when sufficient forces have been gathered, I will personally lead an attack to retake Mount Silverspear and return it to the control of Clan Gunnisson. As we all know, it fell to the greenskins during the early centuries of the Time of Woes in what is now known as the Silver Road Wars. What few remember is that part of the reason it was lost is that an ancient wonder from the time of the Ancestor Gods that watched over the Silver Road was blinded by those tumultuous times.

"But now..." High King Thorgrim Grudgebearer spreads his arms, and each of the jewels inset on the walls begins to glow. "The Eyes of Grimnir will open once more." With a wave of illumination, an image protects from each one of the thousands of jewels, each showing a different part of a long, rocky road through the mountains. The images change after a few seconds, and then there's a low tone as one becomes framed in red light, and the image grows until it centers on a band of Goblins riding wolves along the road. Another tone sounds, and another image is framed in red, this time warning of a small group of Orcs on a mountainside peering over a rocky barrier at the road below. As more tones sound, the High King's smile grows. "That which is wrong with the world that we cannot fix with the blades of our axes, we shall surely rebuild."

...Well then.
 
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