Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[kingreaper]

While it's possibly using something Hysh adjacent, as Hysh post-dates the Old Ones it's likely to be something different - quite possibly something very much like AV.

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We have no evidence that Hysh post-dates the Old Ones.

The Old Ones made the polar gates that split magic into the eight varieties now known as the winds. It seems unlikely that they never noticed that aspect of the magic they were harnessing. Not impossible, but certainly something I'd require evidence to believe.

 

[Alratan]

This all might be the case but on the other hand we do not know the arm is actually the work of the Old Ones, it could be made by the big toads in Lustria, in which case working off Hysh seems entirely likely. Not everything lizard adjacent has to be Old One, for the same reason not everything runic has to be made by the ancestor gods

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That's why I say 'if'.

Although, even if the Slann made it, it could still have been made before the Winds existed, or to tap into the Geomantic Web even after they did. It doesn't have to have been though, I agree.

If it was made by a Slann and is a Wind based enchantment, I'd expect them to have used Qhaysh for increased control and efficiency, even if most of the spell was Hysh. Particularly if it's a functional prosthetic as well as shooting energy blasts, I'd expect multiple Winds to be involved, in the former, probably a fair amount of Chamon but perhaps also several others to hook it into the mind and connect it gracefully to the body.

We have no evidence that Hysh post-dates the Old Ones.

The Old Ones made the polar gates that split magic into the eight varieties now known as the winds. It seems unlikely that they never noticed that aspect of the magic they were harnessing. Not impossible, but certainly something I'd require evidence to believe.

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The polar gates, as far as we know, didn't split magic into the Winds when they were intact. The gaping holes in reality where the gates used to be split Aethyric energy into the Winds, but from what we're told the Winds don't seem to have existed before the gates imploded. From what we're told a safe form of magical energy did trickle from the gates into the Geomantic web, but that was probably undifferentiated Aethyric energy like AV.

 

[kingreaper]

The polar gates, as far as we know, didn't split magic into the Winds when they were intact. The gaping holes in reality where the gates used to be split Aethyric energy into the Winds, but from what we're told the Winds didn't exist before the gates imploded.

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Skink Priests were created by the Old Ones. They are spawned already tied to one of the eight winds.

I think it's pretty clear that the Old Ones were aware of the winds, even if they didn't allow them to flow through the air as they now do.

 

[Mopman43]

A skink would not be able to make that as far as I know, it shoots lasers and there are not Hysh skinks.

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If it is actually like the Hand of the Gods, anyway.

 

[Alratan]

Skink Priests were created by the Old Ones. They are spawned already tied to one of the eight winds.

I think it's pretty clear that the Old Ones were aware of the winds, even if they didn't allow them to flow through the air as they now do.

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The Skink Priests may not have been using the Winds back then. They may, for example, have been literal priests of specific Old Ones whose themes overlapped with a couple of the Winds, or they could have been a couple of varieties of magi-technicians whose baseline personalities and meta-pysiologies were designed to take the broad potential of the energy supplied through the Geomantic Web and use it in focused ways that map closely enough to a couple of the Winds that that their minds could safely channel them when they came into existence.

It's very telling that there aren't eight types of Skink Priests, which you'd expect if they'd been designed to channel the eight Winds.

 

[Briefvoice]

I'm skeptical that Egrimm will learn anything actionable from studying the arm. We haven't had a lot of luck with the skaven loot we studied.

But who knows. He's supposed to be a genius and maybe he'll get some insight from a totally alien enchantment system. Or if he could at least figure out how to make it shoot, pew-pew, that would be kind of neat itself.

 

[kingreaper]

The Skink Priests may not have been using the Winds back then. They may, for example, have been literal priests of specific Old Ones whose themes overlapped with a couple of the Winds, or they could have been a couple of varieties of magi-technicians whose baseline personalities and meta-pysiologies were designed to take the broad potential of the energy supplied through the Geomantic Web and use it in focused ways that map closely enough to a couple of the Winds that that their minds could safely channel them when they came into existence.

It's very telling that there aren't eight types of Skink Priests, which you'd expect if they'd been designed to channel the eight Winds.

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Only if you assume the Old Ones actually wanted them to channel all eight winds, rather than having specific purposes for those winds they chose to focus on - after all, they had the Slann for those cases where they wanted to use a wind that they couldn't call up a Skink for.

IMO It requires a lot more effort to explain all the evidence with the Old Ones having somehow failed to notice that the magic they were channelling around the world could easily be split into eight forms, than to simply go with them having been aware of the eightfold division of magic and having taken advantage of it when it was useful, and used the energy in its combined form when that was more useful.

 

[Wiadi]

IMO It requires a lot more effort to explain all the evidence with the Old Ones having somehow failed to notice that the magic they were channelling around the world could easily be split into eight forms, than to simply go with them having been aware of the eightfold division of magic and having taken advantage of it when it was useful, and used the energy in its combined form when that was more useful.

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This presumes that it could in fact easily be split into eight forms at the time the Old Ones were active.

 

[kingreaper]

This presumes that it could in fact easily be split into eight forms at the time the Old Ones were active.

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There's no reason to believe it couldn't be. Aethyric Vitae can be split into the eight winds by shaking it really hard.

 

[Wiadi]

There's no reason to believe it couldn't be. Aethyric Vitae can be split into the eight winds by shaking it really hard.

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Now, yes. My point is that given how much weird bullshit the Old Ones had going on "magic on Mallus currently works fundamentally differently than it did before the Polar Gates failed" is not IMO an unreasonable hypothesis - or at least, not a possibility we should feel comfortable discarding entirely.

 

[kingreaper]

Now, yes. My point is that given how much weird bullshit the Old Ones had going on "magic on Mallus currently works fundamentally differently than it did before the Polar Gates failed" is not IMO an unreasonable hypothesis - or at least, not a possibility we should feel comfortable discarding entirely.

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I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it's something I'd need some meaningful evidence to believe, especially given the significant amount of evidence against the claim.

Yes, it's possible that when functional the gates prevented the formation of the Eight Winds anywhere on the world, despite the fact that now they're damaged they facilitate that creation in a manner that apparently doesn't happen on other worlds.

Yes, it's possible that the Old Ones created seven forms of Skink Priests corresponding to seven of the eight winds without knowing about the existence of the winds, and left behind the prophecy and the spawning pool programming that led to the creation of the eighth form of Skink Priest (those of Sotek who use Ghur, the one remaining wind) without ever realising what the purpose of those skinks would be.

[EDIT: Thinking about it, as the full set of Skinks are a White Dwarf thing rather than an army-book thing, so they're only tier 4 canon, canon-ish, to this quest and may not be true]

Yes, it's possible that the infamously hidebound Slann developed monowind casting only after the Old Ones left, and yet chose to use it (in addition to their High Magic casting) anyway.

But it's not exactly the most probable explanation. It's certainly not something I'm going to accept as fact without some evidence beyond the fact they could use Qaysh, just as present day elves and slann can.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

There's no winds of magic at all without the broken polar gates at least on Malus, but that doesn't mean the gates created winds of magic prior to their destruction. They clearly act as a portal/piercing to the Aethyr, as per AV what the gates would draw into the world would have been a winds precursor. Could they have been making use of the winds of magic probably in fact I'd say it's likely, I'd also say it's very likely the Slaan and the Old ones were making use of a substance like AV directly without bothering with the winds of magic.

Just because Mathilde has no idea how to make use of AV directly in its current form means very little when talking about what the Old ones did and were capable of, for one thing they had to have been able to make the polar gates which are clearly magical in effect with out actual access to magic at the time as the winds didn't exist on Malus at all prior to their creation/breakdown. The first Gen Slaan being able to manipulate AV directly would make a lot of sense.

 

[kingreaper]

There's no winds of magic at all without the broken polar gates at least on Malus, but that doesn't mean the gates created winds of magic prior to their destruction.

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My suspicion is that they channelled something akin to AV through the geomantic web, which was drawn on in whatever manner was most convenient for the task in question. Just as a modern Jade Wizard can draw Ghyran from a waystone, an Old One who wanted to make fire could have drawn Aqshy from the geomantic web, while one who wanted to encourage growth could have pulled Ghyran, one who wanted light could pull Hysh, and one who wanted to work High Magic could draw Qhaysh - and possibly they could pull other forms of magic out of the mixture too.

If we think of the geomantic web as a set of oil pipelines the modern warhammer world is an oilslick...

 

[K von Carstein]

A skink would not be able to make that as far as I know, it shoots lasers and there are not Hysh skinks.

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Do we know for sure it shoots lasers, or is it only a supposition? Because I can't remember Mathilde doing anything with it.

 

[Alliterate]

I'd also say it's very likely the Slaan and the Old ones were making use of a substance like AV directly without bothering with the winds of magic.

Just because Mathilde has no idea how to make use of AV directly in its current form means very little when talking about what the Old ones did and were capable of

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[ ] Investigate how the Golden Arm reacts to Vitae.

Do we know for sure it shoots lasers, or is it only a supposition? Because I can't remember Mathilde doing anything with it.

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No, we don't really know anything about it, Mathilde certainly doesn't. It's just the thread fixation/best guess.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

After all this hullabaloo about Old One artefacts, it's going to turn out to be cursed mummy gold, fit only for a mad dash to dump it back on Norsca.

 

[Mopman43]

Do we know for sure it shoots lasers, or is it only a supposition? Because I can't remember Mathilde doing anything with it.

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The arm bears visual similarity to an artifact called The Hand of the Gods, which shoots (Hysh-y) lasers.

Not exactly the same, though- that fits over Kroq-Gar's arm like a gauntlet, this one is solid, and I believe this one was described as smaller than Kroq-Gar's would be.

(Kroq-Gar is a dinosaur riding a dinosaur that has been fighting Chaos-and everything else- for 8,000 years).

After all this hullabaloo about Old One artefacts, it's going to turn out to be cursed mummy gold, fit only for a mad dash to dump it back on Norsca.

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Four fingers on the arm at least suggests Lizardmen more than Tomb Kings.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

The arm is also covered in "sigils you don't recognise". Whilst Mathilde obviously can't read Nekaheran, she should be familiar enough to recognise what that language looks like, sort of like how I can recognise Arabic without understanding it. As such, it's probably not from the Old World. That makes it Lustria, Southlands, or the Far East. Then again, it could be really obscure magic symbols, but the four fingers do suggest a non-human creator.

Hmm, I wonder if we should have done the elven explorer notes first.

 

[Romv]

The great machines begin to fail and the energies they were supposed to harness began to pour into the world, and the Ruinous Powers began to mould those energies - but the machines were more clever than they expected, as most of the energies were transformed by their passage into the world into forms that followed their own natures, rather than the orders of the Ruinous Powers. But enough remained true to them that they were able to pour their minions into the world.

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This is probably the most substantial relevant information we get, from Deathfang's children's story.
So the machines, the polar gates, 'were supposed to harness' at this point undefined energies.

When they broke, Chaos 'began to mould' those energies. There's an implication that Chaos expected to be able to do so ('more clever than [Chaos] expected'), and that these energies are probably not intrinsically linked to Chaos before being moulded.

The energies (un-'moulded') 'were transformed by their passage into the world into forms that followed their own natures', which most likely indicates that after this transformation they became the Winds. Deathfang attributes the transformation to the polar gates even though they '[began] to fail', as they 'were more clever than [Chaos] expected.' While Deathfang could be wrong about this, it seems like something they could plausibly know simply by comparing the situation before and after the failure of the gates.

So what I get from this is that we go from undefined energies (probably not Chaos-aligned) being 'harnessed' (which can mean basically anything in this context, especially since Deathfang doesn't seem to even care how the Old Ones used their magic) to them being partially 'transformed' into the Winds, and partially being moulded by Chaos (it kind of sounds like Dhar, but while Dhar is chaotic (small c), I don't know if it's Chaotic per se).

With AV being theorized by Mathilde to be the raw stuff of the Aether, not transformed by normal passage into the world, I can accept that the undefined energies are like AV. However, as far as I can remember, there is no real indication in quest canon what the Old Ones did with those energies when they 'harnessed' them*. We only know from Deathfang that most of the energies after spilling through the failing gates become the Winds, that this was a property of the gates.
It's possible that the gates were always transforming the energies into the Winds, and the gates failing meant that the process was now uncontrolled. The 'clever' part being that even when failing they still managed to deny Chaos most of the energies.
It's also possible that the Winds were a safety measure in case the gates failed. The 'clever' part being that the Old Ones had anticipated their works failing**.

*Turning them into the Winds in a controlled fashion for further use? Using a stream of AV to turn a decadent water wheel? Who knows?
**(Not being serious here, but that hardly seems in-character for the Old Ones from what I've heard of them. Or for any Ancient Precursor race in fiction)

 

[SuperSonicSound]

This is probably the most substantial relevant information we get, from Deathfang's children's story.
So the machines, the polar gates, 'were supposed to harness' at this point undefined energies.

When they broke, Chaos 'began to mould' those energies. There's an implication that Chaos expected to be able to do so ('more clever than [Chaos] expected'), and that these energies are probably not intrinsically linked to Chaos before being moulded.

The energies (un-'moulded') 'were transformed by their passage into the world into forms that followed their own natures', which most likely indicates that after this transformation they became the Winds. Deathfang attributes the transformation to the polar gates even though they '[began] to fail', as they 'were more clever than [Chaos] expected.' While Deathfang could be wrong about this, it seems like something they could plausibly know simply by comparing the situation before and after the failure of the gates.

So what I get from this is that we go from undefined energies (probably not Chaos-aligned) being 'harnessed' (which can mean basically anything in this context, especially since Deathfang doesn't seem to even care how the Old Ones used their magic) to them being partially 'transformed' into the Winds, and partially being moulded by Chaos (it kind of sounds like Dhar, but while Dhar is chaotic (small c), I don't know if it's Chaotic per se).

With AV being theorized by Mathilde to be the raw stuff of the Aether, not transformed by normal passage into the world, I can accept that the undefined energies are like AV. However, as far as I can remember, there is no real indication in quest canon what the Old Ones did with those energies when they 'harnessed' them*. We only know from Deathfang that most of the energies after spilling through the failing gates become the Winds, that this was a property of the gates.
It's possible that the gates were always transforming the energies into the Winds, and the gates failing meant that the process was now uncontrolled. The 'clever' part being that even when failing they still managed to deny Chaos most of the energies.
It's also possible that the Winds were a safety measure in case the gates failed. The 'clever' part being that the Old Ones had anticipated their works failing**.

*Turning them into the Winds in a controlled fashion for further use? Using a stream of AV to turn a decadent water wheel? Who knows?
**(Not being serious here, but that hardly seems in-character for the Old Ones from what I've heard of them. Or for any Ancient Precursor race in fiction)

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I would say from Deathfangs story it sounds like the winds of magic are themselves the moulded form of 'AV' but the polar gates does something to constrain this, however this is contradicted by AV becoming the winds independently without interaction with those mechanisms presumably. Unless the mechanisms on the gates can operate planet wide. Certainly not impossible. As you say Dhar is little c chaotic rather than big C.

 

[The Lone badger]

Did you see how fascinated Van Horstmann was by the arm? It's clearly a Chaos artifact.

 

[picklepikkl]

Jeez, people in this thread just love debating weird and subtle worldbuilding details, don't they? It's a good thing I'm not into that sort of thing; no, I care about practical stuff, like grammar and spelling.

Spoiler: Proofreading up to the start of the KD Expedition

Turn Thirty-One

you have local masons carve out a workshop, training hall, a map room, and a trophy room

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For parallel structure, either "training hall" should get "a" before it, or "map room" and "trophy room" should lose the ones before them.

you think there was a greater possibility of that

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was -> is

With only a year until the Okral leaves, it seemed like the uneasiness and simmering resentment could be ridden out until they leave

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Repetition of "leave" here; maybe "ridden out until then"?

Turn Thirty-One Results Part One

He nods "Some of them

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nods -> nods.

the Temple of Ulric that currently serves as the current headquarters of the Winter Wolves.

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Repetition of currently/current.

their sense of time compromized

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compromized -> compromised

not when you can't really rely on those organs being where they're supposed to be, or entirely sure that there wouldn't be a back-up somewhere.

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or entirely sure -> or be entirely sure (there isn't a "be" earlier in the clause for the subclause to piggyback on)

Turn Thirty-One Results Part Two

that's just coralling Ulgu

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coralling -> corralling

Turn Thirty-One Social Part One

They were bold where Karaz-a-Karak was weary.

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In context, I think "weary" here should be "wary".

Turn Thirty-One Social Part Two

the existing Boatmens Guild

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Boatmens -> Boatmen's

Turn Thirty-Two Results Part One

with occassional herds of deer

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occassional -> occasional

Turn Thirty-Two Social Part One

The Dooming and the Quickening is supposed to happen

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is supposed -> are supposed

Skull River Part One

Karag Lhune's slopes expels its full complement of gyrocopters

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either "slopes" -> "slope" or "expels its" -> "expel their"

the pilot has to follow the Blood River north to keep on course instead of charting a direct course

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Repetition of "course" here; unsure how to address it

Skull River Part Two

they can be lead away

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lead -> led

Turn Thirty-Three Social Part One

just about every craft and service imagineable

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imagineable -> imaginable

will convince other Clans to return to K8P

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Using the abbreviation feels wrong in narrative text.

The other recovered vaults and the loot taken during the reconquest represents a great deal of wealth on its own

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represents -> represent
its own -> their own

Turn Thirty-Three Social Part Two

if someone who is not technically in the employ of the Loremaster but is under their authority and has worked alongside them in the past

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In the context of the larger sentence this antecedent clause is missing a predicate -- I would delete the "who" between "someone" and "is"

What lead you to join this Expedition

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lead -> led

 

[Codex]

Your Magesight instantly spots what you're looking for, and though magically it's a very neat piece of work, you suspect that it won't be long before a groundskeeper with a theodolite spots something amiss and the Ducal Arborist starts raising a fuss at a portion of the Park having been folded neatly out of the mundane dimensions.

Unlike the defences of the Colleges, no attempt has been made to obscure the nature of these magics and you're quickly able to deduce the right trees to walk between, and you find yourself in a fold of tamed forest that you suspect would make Panoramia's jaw drop. Every tree is lush and green and evenly spaced from its neighbours without any pattern in their layout being obvious, the foliage abounds with twittering birds and chattering critters, and from no apparent direction, the sound of a brook burbling cheerily underscores the scene. It is, you suspect, very deliberately designed to be what one might imagine if asked to picture a Wood Elf that was the complete opposite of the Asrai.

Sitting in a low tree fork and smiling mischievously at the hummingbird investigating the flower in her hair is an Elf, and you very quickly have some uncharitable ideas as to how this unorthodox alliance might have been possible, as the neckline of her light green dress dips as low as the side slits climb high, and her bare feet don't so much hint as they do shout that the dress could be the only garment upon her person. But even as your mundane senses pass judgement, your magical senses tell a very different story - at first you thought her invisible to them, but then you realized that the physical being before you is merely the anchorpoint of a soul that fills the dimensional pocket more thoroughly than the air around you, interwoven in every tree and beast and blade of grass, and the only place she isn't is in a polite distance around your person.

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We were recently talking about lack of space in the city and the possibility of using Space Manipulation to create additional space for people, so when I reread this part, it caught my attention.

Cadaeth is clearly not a normal Elf. She's probably some sort of forest creature, but she is able to casually create a pocket dimension in Middenheim's Garden, a ways away from her domain in Laurelorn. That... is impressive. One has to wonder what the limitations of it are and if the Eonir can replicate it in some way.

As a side note, I'm pretty sure Cadaeth was vaguely flirting with Mathilde in both this interaction and the next one she had with her. Didn't do much of course, Mathilde has a very strong poker face, but I find it funny that Cadaeth thought she could tempt Mathilde.

 

[Romv]

We were recently talking about lack of space in the city and the possibility of using Space Manipulation to create additional space for people, so when I reread this part, it caught my attention.

Cadaeth is clearly not a normal Elf. She's probably some sort of forest creature, but she is able to casually create a pocket dimension in Middenheim's Garden, a ways away from her domain in Laurelorn. That... is impressive. One has to wonder what the limitations of it are and if the Eonir can replicate it in some way.

As a side note, I'm pretty sure Cadaeth was vaguely flirting with Mathilde in both this interaction and the next one she had with her. Didn't do much of course, Mathilde has a very strong poker face, but I find it funny that Cadaeth thought she could tempt Mathilde.

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While I certainly don't find the Cityborn uninteresting, and we're going to have to interact with them in any case for political reasons, I am much more interested in the Forestborn. They're the ones with the non-elven members after all.
But then I'm much more of a fan of tree elves than any other commonly available flavour in general, so that's not a great surprise.

 

[DragonParadox]

While I certainly don't find the Cityborn uninteresting, and we're going to have to interact with them in any case for political reasons, I am much more interested in the Forestborn. They're the ones with the non-elven members after all.
But then I'm much more of a fan of tree elves than any other commonly available flavour in general, so that's not a great surprise.

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I think you are being a little too swift to dismiss the Cityborn. They have most of the elves which means most of the mages by volume. I would be surprised if there is no significant cityborn representation in the project.