Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Parabola]

Lothern wouldn't be dangerous, but it could get dull after a week or two. Boney has previously stated that he would struggle to write a full action's worth of content there. Unlike Laurelorn (the only city of the Eonir, and which therefore has to have a lot of interesting and worthwhile things), Lothern is just one city among many of Ulthuan. An important one, sure, but it's not really representative of their overall culture, and it's not a place you can wander around aimlessly in and expect to find interesting things worth that time investment.

 

[Abhorsen]

[X] Yes
-[X] Find a way to subtly honor Ranald and Halétha in the final copy of the Accords.

 

[Mopman43]

[X] Yes
-[X] Find a way to subtly honor Ranald and Halétha in the final copy of the Accords.

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Vote ended.

Yes-without-additions won.

 

[Wiggy]

Well, Mathilde will probably *consider* ways to add Ranald in given Boney tends to allude to strong thread sentiments even when they don't quite make it in.

 

[The Phoenixian]

Funny how thread can't even answer a plain yes or no question. Lol.

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SV notoriously can not make itself a damned sandwich, so this shouldn't be much of a surprise.


No, seriously.

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Can I ask you not pin my personal misread on "The Thread?"

I really dislike the thing where we blame a nebulous mass for the words and deeds of individuals and so drag down everyone for the failings of a very few.

Being the person who is today responsible for that failing, I would much rather people be accurate --- even at expense to myself --- than see my own failure used as a brush to tar everyone.

 

[deathofrats0808]

I mean, there are some dangers in Lothern. Mostly other humans and the fact that AFAIK the Asur just do not enforce order on the human quarter of Lothern at all. That said, it's a pretty small risk.

 

[DragonParadox]

I mean, there are some dangers in Lothern. Mostly other humans and the fact that AFAIK the Asur just do not enforce order on the human quarter of Lothern at all. That said, it's a pretty small risk.

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And on that note we are training her to be a Grey Wizard, at the end of the day some amount of risk in the course of her training is a good idea to prepare her for the much larger degree of it later. I don't think we want Eike to be in the position of early game Mathilde who struggled to deal with a single zombie in the wall.

 

[MrHobbit]

1. It is indisputable that the Great Vortex at the heart of Ulthuan is the sole creation, possession, and responsibility of the Asur of Ulthuan, as led by the rightful and unburned Phoenix Kings.

This one was foundational for Ulthuan's agreement, and one that nobody was that interested in fighting against. Nobody at the table has any plans to invade Ulthuan and annex the Inner Sea, as far as you're aware. Putting the acknowledgement of the 'rightful and unburned' Phoenix Kings - that is to say, not Malekith - on paper might make future negotiations with Naggaroth more difficult, which might be another reason why Eltharion pushed for it.

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This portion is more interesting than Mathilde let on. It recognizes which side in between Ulthuan and Naggaroth is led by the rightful Phoenix King. The signatories to this treaty includes Laurelorn. Laurelorn was playing Ulthuan and Naggaroth with the prospect of recognizing one of them as being the legitimate heir of the Phoenix Throne. The Druchii had just sent ambassadors to Laurelorn a year and a half ago. I doubt they had sent the ambassadors to Naggaroth more than a year before that.

That's a really quick turn around for elves. I am surprised that Laurelorn didn't try to weasel out of that, so they could go a few centuries of getting bribes from Ulthuan and Naggaroth into choosing a side. Those Druchii ambassadors probably are not going to have a good day when they hear of the Bokha Palace Accords.

Still, it's very interesting that Laurelorn didn't try to get out of recognizing Finubar as the rightful Phoenix King.

In truth, since we're working with humans, there was no reason for us not to also put out feelers to the two claimants of the Phoenix Throne to see if we can play them against each other. The board between them has been stalemated for so long that the introduction of even a minor piece is one that either could be tempted into paying handsomely for."

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[DragonParadox]

This portion is more interesting than Mathilde let on. It recognizes which side in between Ulthuan and Naggaroth is led by the rightful Phoenix King. The signatories to this treaty includes Laurelorn. Laurelorn was playing Ulthuan and Naggaroth with the prospect of recognizing one of them as being the legitimate heir of the Phoenix Throne. The Druchii had just sent ambassadors to Laurelorn a year and a half ago. I doubt they had sent the ambassadors to Naggaroth more than a year before that.

That's a really quick turn around for elves. I am surprised that Laurelorn didn't try to weasel out of that, so they could go a few centuries of getting bribes from Ulthuan and Naggaroth into choosing a side. Those Druchii ambassadors probably are not going to have a good day when they hear of the Bokha Palace Accords.

Still, it's very interesting that Laurelorn didn't try to get out of recognizing Finubar as the rightful Phoenix King.

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I think what we are looking at here, at least to some degree is us doing an end run on the Queen and her ambitions. Mathilde put her into a position to be one of the parties in a treaty that would in one fel swoop legitimize her people in the eyes of Ulthuan and put her signature on the same piece of paper as the Emperor as a partner, both things Laurelorn either wants or needs. On the other hand if they had refused to be a part of the treaty it would not have merely maintained ambivalence, it would have looked like siding with the Druchi in the eyes of Kislev and the Empire. Maybe if the high elves had sent someone less blunt then Eltharion the Eonir might have gotten away with playing coy, but he has the energy of a battering ram one with places to be, so the treaty gets done in, by elven standards, the blink of and eye.

 

[Tobtorp]

I think what we are looking at here, at least to some degree is us doing an end run on the Queen and her ambitions. Mathilde put her into a position to be one of the parties in a treaty that would in one fel swoop legitimize her people in the eyes of Ulthuan and put her signature on the same piece of paper as the Emperor as a partner, both things Laurelorn either wants or needs. On the other hand if they had refused to be a part of the treaty it would not have merely maintained ambivalence, it would have looked like siding with the Druchi in the eyes of Kislev and the Empire. Maybe if the high elves had sent someone less blunt then Eltharion the Eonir might have gotten away with playing coy, but he has the energy of a battering ram one with places to be, so the treaty gets done in, by elven standards, the blink of and eye.

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Hell it got done in a blink of an eye for human standards too. The elf rolled in, demanded to speak to project lead, we got sky called and then we were already off to the coronation and shortly after that the treaty.

 

[MrHobbit]

I think what we are looking at here, at least to some degree is us doing an end run on the Queen and her ambitions. Mathilde put her into a position to be one of the parties in a treaty that would in one fel swoop legitimize her people in the eyes of Ulthuan and put her signature on the same piece of paper as the Emperor as a partner, both things Laurelorn either wants or needs. On the other hand if they had refused to be a part of the treaty it would not have merely maintained ambivalence, it would have looked like siding with the Druchi in the eyes of Kislev and the Empire. Maybe if the high elves had sent someone less blunt then Eltharion the Eonir might have gotten away with playing coy, but he has the energy of a battering ram one with places to be, so the treaty gets done in, by elven standards, the blink of and eye.

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Ulthuan has already recognized the independence of Laurelorn. Though I doubt Naggaroth has done has the same. Laurelorn wouldn't have immediately recognized that Eltharion is extremely stubborn. That Mathilde didn't even note them trying to resist that clause of the treaty is noteworthy. Acceding to it makes sense. Not even putting up a fuss about it doesn't. Especially because Ulthuan has not even sent a delegation to Laurelorn.

Ulthuan sent an ambassador to the Empire to poke the waystones, but as far as we know they haven't responded to the Druchii ambassadors at all. Naggaroth and Ulthuan both would retaliate if Laurelorn recognized the other. But recognizing Ulthuan after such a short time and without Ulthuan even sending a delegation to Tor Lithanel would be irritating. Though it would definitely weaken the factions involved in the outreach.

It might have had something to do with Hatalath being Laurelorn's delegate.

Ulthuan in general doesn't really care, and most Asur would be unable to tell you the difference between Athel Loren and Laurelorn. Finubar has acknowledged Laurelorn's independence, and Laurelorn does not recognize either claimant for the Phoenix Crown. The Eonir as a whole are wary and a little bitter.

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[DragonParadox]

Ulthuan has already recognized the independence of Laurelorn. Though I doubt Naggaroth has done has the same. Laurelorn wouldn't have immediately recognized that Eltharion is extremely stubborn. That Mathilde didn't even note them trying to resist that clause of the treaty is noteworthy. Acceding to it makes sense. Not even putting up a fuss about it doesn't. Especially because Ulthuan has not even sent a delegation to Laurelorn.

Ulthuan sent an ambassador to the Empire to poke the waystones, but as far as we know they haven't responded to the Druchii ambassadors at all. Naggaroth and Ulthuan both would retaliate if Laurelorn recognized the other. But recognizing Ulthuan after such a short time and without Ulthuan even sending a delegation to Tor Lithanel would be irritating. Though it would definitely weaken the factions involved in the outreach.

It might have had something to do with Hatalath being Laurelorn's delegate.

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If as you said it makes sense that the Eonir eventually agree, and if their delegate is savvy enough to understand that, then it makes sense that they put up zero fuss since that would gain them nothing. Had Ulthuan sent another ambassador they might perhaps have held out a hope that Ulthuan would try to unruffle their feathers with some minor concession if they made a fuss... I doubt Eltharion would even remember said fuss long enough to tell anyone back home about it

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

The Druchii ambassadors in Laurelorn aren't actually representing Naggaroth—they are representing a specific (currently unknown) faction within Druchii politics who are trying to leverage relations with the Old World into some sort of advantage back home.

So claiming that the Vortex belongs to the "rightful and unburnt king" doesn't really step on their toes that much, because they are not here as agents of Malekith in the first place.

 

[DragonParadox]

The Druchii ambassadors in Laurelorn aren't actually representing Naggaroth—they are representing a specific (currently unknown) faction within Druchii politics who are trying to leverage relations with the Old World into some sort of advantage back home.

So claiming that the Vortex belongs to the "rightful and unburnt king" doesn't really step on their toes that much, because they are not here as agents of Malekith in the first place.

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Given that at least one of them seems to be from Morathi I suspect another is from the Witch King at least informally. I don't see him letting Mommy Dearest play with one of the two neutral elven polities on the planet without at least having eyes on unfolding events.

 

[Mopman43]

Given that at least one of them seems to be from Morathi I suspect another is from the Witch King at least informally. I don't see him letting Mommy Dearest play with one of the two neutral elven polities on the planet without at least having eyes on unfolding events.

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A) Wasn't it specifically suggested that Morathi didn't send the delegation?

B) Morathi gets up to a lot without Malekith knowing.

 

[Parabola]

Acknowledging that a rightful Phoenix King wouldn't get burnt doesn't mean Laurelorn is throwing their full support behind Ulthuan. It won't stop Druchii from trying to trade stuff with Laurelorn, even if it might upset the Malekith true believers. And even for those, it's entirely possible they'd be like "yeah, yeah, everyone says that, just wait until we actually conquer Ulthuan, then you'll be changing your tune. This is just a momentary setback" and still try to sway Laurelorn.

Probably, from Hatalath's POV, allowing yourself to get courted by two opposing sides is all well and good, but actually choosing one side is an acceptable price to get waystones, particularly when not having waystones will cause your people a slow extinction.

 

[deathofrats0808]

This portion is more interesting than Mathilde let on. It recognizes which side in between Ulthuan and Naggaroth is led by the rightful Phoenix King. The signatories to this treaty includes Laurelorn. Laurelorn was playing Ulthuan and Naggaroth with the prospect of recognizing one of them as being the legitimate heir of the Phoenix Throne. The Druchii had just sent ambassadors to Laurelorn a year and a half ago. I doubt they had sent the ambassadors to Naggaroth more than a year before that.

That's a really quick turn around for elves. I am surprised that Laurelorn didn't try to weasel out of that, so they could go a few centuries of getting bribes from Ulthuan and Naggaroth into choosing a side. Those Druchii ambassadors probably are not going to have a good day when they hear of the Bokha Palace Accords.

Still, it's very interesting that Laurelorn didn't try to get out of recognizing Finubar as the rightful Phoenix King.

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Well, they are hoping to get more Waystone stuff for it. Plus, they are, I suspect, more interested in having the treaty with the Empire than with Ulthuan. Bribes are great, normalised relations with the Empire are better.

A) Wasn't it specifically suggested that Morathi didn't send the delegation?

B) Morathi gets up to a lot without Malekith knowing.

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Hatalath suggested that yeah. Not sure he's right though.

 

[Parabola]

Hatalath suggested that yeah. Not sure he's right though.

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It wasn't Hatalath, it was Harathi, Marrisith's uncle. Similar names, so it's understandable.

 

[MrHobbit]

If as you said it makes sense that the Eonir eventually agree, and if their delegate is savvy enough to understand that, then it makes sense that they put up zero fuss since that would gain them nothing. Had Ulthuan sent another ambassador they might perhaps have held out a hope that Ulthuan would try to unruffle their feathers with some minor concession if they made a fuss... I doubt Eltharion would even remember said fuss long enough to tell anyone back home about it

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Their delegate was Hatalath. Don't you remember his introduction or when he let the existence of Albion slip the first time? Trying to get Eltharion to bend on that is exactly the kind of thing he would do. He would certainly do it in a fashion that Mathilde would notice.

The Druchii ambassadors in Laurelorn aren't actually representing Naggaroth—they are representing a specific (currently unknown) faction within Druchii politics who are trying to leverage relations with the Old World into some sort of advantage back home.

So claiming that the Vortex belongs to the "rightful and unburnt king" doesn't really step on their toes that much, because they are not here as agents of Malekith in the first place.

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Well, it does step on their toes. They will try to distance themselves from convincing Laurelorn to recognize Malekith as the true Phoenix King. Malekith won't be pleased when he's informed that one of the only four elf polities on the planet recognized Finubar as the rightful Phoenix King. He'll take it out on the faction that sponsored those ambassadors for failing.

Acknowledging that a rightful Phoenix King wouldn't get burnt doesn't mean Laurelorn is throwing their full support behind Ulthuan. It won't stop Druchii from trying to trade stuff with Laurelorn, even if it might upset the Malekith true believers. And even for those, it's entirely possible they'd be like "yeah, yeah, everyone says that, just wait until we actually conquer Ulthuan, then you'll be changing your tune. This is just a momentary setback" and still try to sway Laurelorn.

Besides, from Hatalath's POV, allowing yourself to get courted by two opposing sides is all well and good, but actually choosing one side is an acceptable price to get waystones, particularly when not having waystones will cause your people a slow extinction.

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Well, they are hoping to get more Waystone stuff for it. Plus, they are, I suspect, more interested in having the treaty with the Empire than with Ulthuan. Bribes are great, normalised relations with the Empire are better.


Hatalath suggested that yeah. Not sure he's right though.

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I'm not saying it is weird for Laurelorn to recognize Finubar as the rightful Phoenix King. I'm saying it is weird for Laurelorn to not even try to get out of that line. It is especially weird for Hatalath to not try to get out that line and blunder it in a way Mathilde would notice.

That was Harathi who suggested that the Druchii weren't here on behalf of Morathi. He's the Grey Lord who is a son of Morelion and has a very big grudge against the Druchii.

I'm actually surprised that it was Hatalath who was sent as delegate for Laurelorn rather than a member of the royal family or the High Council. Like Eltharion, he doesn't seem like the best candidate for diplomacy like this, though for completely different reasons.



On a completely unrelated note, I wonder what victory between Ulthuan and Naggaroth would look like. It'd be easy to imagine if Malekith won. Just export Druchii society to Ulthuan. There probably would be a large exodus too. But I wonder if Ulthuan won. Would they relocate the Druchii to Ulthuan? Leave them there with garrisons? Rip out the city-states of the ground and stitch them back to Nagarythe out of sheer spite?

 

[Blackout]

But I wonder if Ulthuan won. Would they relocate the Druchii to Ulthuan? Leave them there with garrisons? Rip out the city-states of the ground and stitch them back to Nagarythe out of sheer spite?

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The historical precedent for the Asur dealing with captured Druchii populations was to take zero prisoners, level the cities to the ground and salt the fields afterwards.

There's a reason that the sixth Phoenix King bears the epithet "The Slayer".

 

[MrHobbit]

The historical precedent for the Asur dealing with captured Druchii populations was to take zero prisoners, level the cities to the ground and salt the fields afterwards.

There's a reason that the sixth Phoenix King bears the epithet "The Slayer".

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Tethlis was also noted to be ruthless. The Asur were noted to be "shocked" at Tethlis ordering the complete eradication of the population of Tor Anlec. Though the phrasing of that was odd. The Scouring spanned centuries. There would have been other Druchii cities in Ulthuan at that point and that Tethlis would have pursued similar policies against them: it did say that "no Dark Elf was left alive on Ulthuan."

The precedent is there, but I'm not sure if the will or even capacity is there. Complete eradication is extremely difficult to manage, there's similar situations historically and even today where even in the case of complete military supremacy, the party just does not have the capacity to murder them all outright and rather needs to resort to other strategies.

 

[Mopman43]

Tethlis was also noted to be ruthless. The Asur were noted to be "shocked" at Tethlis ordering the complete eradication of the population of Tor Anlec. Though the phrasing of that was odd. The Scouring spanned centuries. There would have been other Druchii cities in Ulthuan at that point and that Tethlis would have pursued similar policies against them: it did say that "no Dark Elf was left alive on Ulthuan."

The precedent is there, but I'm not sure if the will or even capacity is there. Complete eradication is extremely difficult to manage, there's similar situations historically and even today where even in the case of complete military supremacy, the party just does not have the capacity to murder them all outright and rather needs to resort to other strategies.

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Sufficiently weakening the DE military might be enough- because then the Chaos tribes to their north move south if the Watchtowers can't keep them out.

 

[Parabola]

Well, it does step on their toes. They will try to distance themselves from convincing Laurelorn to recognize Malekith as the true Phoenix King. Malekith won't be pleased when he's informed that one of the only four elf polities on the planet recognized Finubar as the rightful Phoenix King. He'll take it out on the faction that sponsored those ambassadors for failing.

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These ambassadors didn't come to Laurelorn to convince the Eonir that Malekith was the true Phoenix King, they went there mostly for wealth and knowledge. They also weren't here representing Malekith or the whole of Naggaroth, but rather individual factions of their respective city-states.

Short of Malekith going 'trade with Laurelorn at your own risk because I will murder anyone who I catch doing so', this won't stop individual Druchii from wanting to enrich themselves by trading with Laurelorn. And even then I'm sure a handful would in fact still risk it.

I'm not saying it is weird for Laurelorn to recognize Finubar as the rightful Phoenix King. I'm saying it is weird for Laurelorn to not even try to get out of that line. It is especially weird for Hatalath to not try to get out that line and blunder it in a way Mathilde would notice.

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Why is it weird? Putting aside whatever Hatalath thinks of the Asur-Druchii problems, I don't think he'd want to risk not getting waystone knowledge for the sake of politics by trying to anger the guy who came all the way from Ulthuan.

And besides, how exactly should he try to get out of that line if he so wanted to? In Reikspiel at least it seems pretty unambiguous. Trying to snake his way out of it could be rather blatant. This is a pretty straightforward "do you agree that this giant magical working that's in the direct middle of our entire realm and which would take giant/great armies to take is in fact ours?" It would not be very easy to propose even small changes to this one.

 

[reignonyrparade]

The ownership of the vortex you're correct about, but in theory he could try to just get it cut down to "Unburnt Phoenix King" without the rightful. That being said, perhaps he did, but there's only so far it could actually get pushed.

 

[MrHobbit]

Sufficiently weakening the DE military might be enough- because then the Chaos tribes to their north move south if the Watchtowers can't keep them out.

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That's a good point. But I think that point would come before Ulthuan emerged victorious in a war with Naggaroth and would actually be a key point in forcing the surrender of Naggaroth. The vast majority of Druchii don't want to end up killed by Chaos tribes after all.

These ambassadors didn't come to Laurelorn to convince the Eonir that Malekith was the true Phoenix King, they went there mostly for wealth and knowledge. They also weren't here representing Malekith or the whole of Naggaroth, but rather individual factions of their respective city-states.

Short of Malekith going 'trade with Laurelorn at your own risk because I will murder anyone who I catch doing so', this won't stop individual Druchii from wanting to enrich themselves by trading with Laurelorn. And even then I'm sure a handful would in fact still risk it.

Why is it weird? Putting aside whatever Hatalath thinks of the Asur-Druchii problems, I don't think he'd want to risk not getting waystone knowledge for the sake of politics by trying to anger the guy who came all the way from Ulthuan.

And besides, how exactly should he try to get out of that line if he so wanted to? In Reikspiel at least it seems pretty unambiguous. Trying to snake his way out of it could be rather blatant. This is a pretty straightforward "do you agree that this giant magical working that's in the direct middle of our entire realm and which would take giant/great armies to take is in fact ours?" It would not be very easy to propose even small changes to this one.

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Those Druchii did not show up of their own accord, Naggaroth was given an invitation to send a delegation. They were invited to come to Laurelorn by Laurelorn to convince Laurelorn why Laurelorn should prefer Naggaroth over Ulthuan. A similar invitation was sent to Ulthuan. Individual Druchii factions showed up. Malekith can obviously be blamed for not sending delegates for Naggaroth as whole, but do you think Malekith would see it that way?

What we have seen from Hatalath is that he isn't good at diplomacy and if he was going to do diplomatic things he'd bungle it in some fashion. This is the most obvious place for him to bungle it. He and the other Grey Lords were exiled from Ulthuan for one reason or another. Recognizing that the Great Vortex is the property of the Asur is different from recognizing that the Asur are led by the rightful Phoenix King. The latter is a significant deal on its own.

The ownership of the vortex you're correct about, but in theory he could try to just get it cut down to "Unburnt Phoenix King" without the rightful. That being said, perhaps he did, but there's only so far it could actually get pushed.

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I am extremely confident in Mathilde's ability to notice Hatalath trying to get the treaty to say one thing over another.