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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Woltaire said:
The one for the lost isles of Elthis says they are 2 colonies there not garrison port which comes with the impetus that it profitable in some way that they were willing to fund a colony their on the other side of the world.
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The existence of colonies is no guarantee that they're profitable. In our history colonies almost never turned a profit, most of the exceptions being when they had something to plunder. But even if all of their remaining colonies are as profitable as can be, it would still be a very big difference from them being able to consider the entire Old World, the northern half of the New, and the entire Arabyan coast, to be subjects of Ulthuan.

dptullos said:
I don't know why we're discussing trade with Laurelorn.

To the best of my knowledge, Laurelorn is surrounded by Nordland. Nordland's common people are Not Happy with the Eonir. The Grand Baron is also Not Happy with the Eonir. The Eonir have killed people, blown up a substantial section of Nordland's economy, and assisted Middenland in publicly humiliating the Grand Baron before the Elector Counts.

Did the Eonir have strong reasons to do this? Absolutely. Is the Grand Baron highly motivated to seek revenge? Absolutely. Will the Eonir be trading through Nordland in the near future? No.
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Laurelorn has Middenland to the south and the Wasteland to the west. It also has river access to the Sea of Claws via the Schaukel that Nordland could not blockade without using the Imperial Second Fleet, which would set off a political shitstorm and would probably be a bad idea when the Elf in charge of that part of Laurelorn is called 'Stormwitch' and that part of the coastline is dotted with names like 'Wrecker's Point' and 'Manann's Teeth'.
 
dinomannitro6 said:
Nordland isn't their only military opponent, there are also beastmen and greenskins and other assorted griblies. And the firing post trees arent the only important ones, there are also the waytrees.
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True, but the point is if they can get a properly enforced border, that fixes their problem. And they can only enforce their border if there's not a threat of war with the Empire or Nordland. Which relies on the nobles, not the peasants.

Like, we know this fixes their problem because they're enforcing their border with Middenland via arrow, and because the nobles are ok with it, they're happy to keep on doing so.
 
Boney said:
Laurelorn has Middenland to the south and the Wasteland to the west. It also has river access to the Sea of Claws via the Schaukel that Nordland could not blockade without using the Imperial Second Fleet, which would set off a political shitstorm and would probably be a bad idea when the Elf in charge of that part of Laurelorn is called 'Stormwitch' and that part of the coastline is dotted with names like 'Wrecker's Point' and 'Manann's Teeth'.
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Well, I am bad at geography.
 
Boney said:
All indications I've seen are that the Elven presence on those islands are garrisons and navy bases used for power projection, and would represent a net drain on Ulthuan's resources.
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Trade? Those bases and colonies would be worth it, if only to protect the world-spanning trade networks of the Asur. The Tower of Dusk exists to guard trade routes to Nippon and Cathay that go around Lustria.
 
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Mayto said:
Trade? Those bases and colonies would be worth it, if only to protect the world-spanning trade networks of the Asur.
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I'm not saying those places have no reason to exist, I'm saying that they don't add up to the sprawling multicontinental empire they were before the Sundering and the War of Vengeance. If they facilitate trade then they facilitate being a trading power, which is an entirely different thing to what they were.
 
Boney said:
I'm not saying those places have no reason to exist, I'm saying that they don't add up to the sprawling multicontinental empire they were before the Sundering and the War of Vengeance. If they facilitate trade then they facilitate being a trading power, which is an entirely different thing to what they were.
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Oh that I agree on. I just think they're not a 'net drain on Ulthuan's Rescources.'
 
I think it kinda depends on how a drain is defined.
They cost resources and make none, so a drain.
But they allow for trade and control of the oceans, so they are an expense incurred in acquiring wealth.
Wether the trade income is enough to offset the expense, i don't know, it might not.
But what those garrisons and fleet outposts also do is allow dealing with threats to Ulthuan before they come to Ulthuan.

So the outposts are a drain in the same way that an army is a drain, it costs money, makes none, but without it you (as a nation) die.
 
Mayto said:
Oh that I agree on. I just think they're not a 'net drain on Ulthuan's Rescources.'
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The post I made was in the context of me evaluating those colonies as parts of a sprawling Empire with cities full of productive taxpaying citizens on every continent, and whether those islands alone mean that Ulthuan has retained that status. If you remove it from that context then sure, it's incorrect. The way to solve this is to not do that.
 
Mayto said:
Oh that I agree on. I just think they're not a 'net drain on Ulthuan's Rescources.'
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It's not always obvious when a trade post generates less income than the cost of the garrison needed to protect it. The Romans had to withdraw from Britain partly because the cost of the legions stationed there was more than the wealth the province generated (at the time of Emperor Hadrian, 3 of the 30 active legions were stationed in England), and in the 20th century the British government all but threw India back to the locals because the Empire was losing more money holding it than they were gaining in taxes and trade—especially in the wake of the WW2 debts, which made the entire empire financially unfeasible.
 
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Thinking about it. If Laurelorn wanted to exclusively trade with middenland that shouldn't actually be too much of a problem. Making a road through a swamp probably gets much easier when you can control plants and make them do your bidding. Just a Allee of trees on either side of the road, their roots used to stabilize it, might actually be enough.
 
Speaking of trade by sea @Boney do we have a sense from just talking to people if the Eonir have any interest in building any kind of maritime presence now that they are not isolationist? I mean on the one hand I am not sure if they still have enough of the skills for it, how many shipwrights would have managed to live 3000 odd years after all, but on the other hand they do have books and it should not be that hard for them to relearn the skills for at least coastal sailing...

...as I typed that it occurred to me that the Sea of Claws might not be the best place for that so maybe it would not be worth it, especially with Norland in those same waters.

So yeah high risk but also high costs, has Mathilde heard of anyone willing to go for it in Laurelorn?
 
DragonParadox said:
Speaking of trade by sea @Boney do we have a sense from just talking to people if the Eonir have any interest in building any kind of maritime presence now that they are not isolationist? I mean on the one hand I am not sure if they still have enough of the skills for it, how many shipwrights would have managed to live 3000 odd years after all, but on the other hand they do have books and it should not be that hard for them to relearn the skills for at least coastal sailing...

...as I typed that it occurred to me that the Sea of Claws might not be the best place for that so maybe it would not be worth it, especially with Norland in those same waters.

So yeah high risk but also high costs, has Mathilde heard of anyone willing to go for it in Laurelorn?
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Yes. There are three Mathlann-aligned Houses, including one that was traditionally boatbuilders, and all three are supporters of increased ties with the outside world.
 
Boney said:
There are three Mathlann-aligned Houses, including one that was traditionally boatbuilders, and all three are supporters of increased ties with the outside world.
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Actually what would happen if the eonir showed up on Ulthuans shores to visit the homeland? Are the high elfs still angry with them or what's that relationship like?
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
It's not always obvious when a trade post generates less income than the cost of the garrison needed to protect it. The Romans had to withdraw from Britain partly because the cost of the legions stationed there was more than the wealth the province generated (at the time of Emperor Hadrian, 3 of the 30 active legions were stationed in England), and in the 20th century the British government all but threw India back to the locals because the Empire was losing more money holding it than they were gaining in taxes and trade—especially in the wake of the WW2 debts, which made the entire empire financially unfeasible.
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Britain(in the roman empire) wasn't really a trade post and it was on the very edge of the roman empire not on a shipping route between 2 of the prosperous regions in the world ulthan and cathay + ind and nippon not as well off but still very lucrative for trade. These island are much much smaller with a populace that support the local government not ones that actively resisting them and does not want them Heck the isles of elthis don't even have beastmen on them. Most of these are trade post which don't require a large military commitment to protect all these give the impression of very much postive trade balance.
 
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Tobtorp said:
Actually what would happen if the eonir showed up on Ulthuans shores to visit the homeland? Are the high elfs still angry with them or what's that relationship like?
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Ulthuan in general doesn't really care, and most Asur would be unable to tell you the difference between Athel Loren and Laurelorn. Finubar has acknowledged Laurelorn's independence, and Laurelorn does not recognize either claimant for the Phoenix Crown. The Eonir as a whole are wary and a little bitter. If an Eonir ship showed up it would be as welcome to visit Lothern as any other ship from the Old World would be, but would not be allowed to dock anywhere else in Ulthuan.
 
Boney said:
most Asur would be unable to tell you the difference between Athel Loren and Laurelorn.
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As a result of this statement I now have the insane headcanon that in-universe, it is common for Asur have the mistaken belief that a lot of people in this thread have OOC had as a result of reading DoDA, that Laurelorn is a splinter colony of Athel Loren's.
 
Boney said:
Pretty much. Ereth Khial's accepted niche is that if you die far from home with no hope of your soul being shepherded by a Priest of Morai-heg or escaping to a Dreaming Wood or the Waystone network from where it can make its own way to someone who can point it in the right direction, an eternity of service to Ereth Khial is thought by some to be better than taking your chances with the Aethyr and risking falling into the clutches of Chaos. But very, very few citizens of Laurelorn have any chance of dying in those circumstances, which is why Her worship is withering away there.
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If you have time and interest, could you explain how the Elven afterlife works in Divided Loyalties, or at least how the Elves think it works?

It seems like Ereth Khial's afterlife is pretty awful, so if elves have alternatives I don't see why they would be worshiping her. She might help if you die far from home, but if the theological risks of dying in a foreign land are that great you could just...not leave home. The kind of people who think ahead to avoid the risk of the Aethyr would be likely to choose one of the other options rather than the awful underworld goddess.

"Successfully" worshiping Ereth Khial leads to a pretty unpleasant outcome, so why not just kick her to the curb?
 
dptullos said:
"Successfully" worshiping Ereth Khial leads to a pretty unpleasant outcome, so why not just kick her to the curb?
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I imagine they worship her just in case. Neither Ulthuan nor Nagaroth can afford to have their entire population staying at home and never leaving. The Asurs protect their interests and the world, while the Druchii need slaves and ressources. Isolationism isn't really an option for them.
 
dptullos said:
If you have time and interest, could you explain how the Elven afterlife works in Divided Loyalties, or at least how the Elves think it works?

It seems like Ereth Khial's afterlife is pretty awful, so if elves have alternatives I don't see why they would be worshiping her. She might help if you die far from home, but if the theological risks of dying in a foreign land are that great you could just...not leave home. The kind of people who think ahead to avoid the risk of the Aethyr would be likely to choose one of the other options rather than the awful underworld goddess.

"Successfully" worshiping Ereth Khial leads to a pretty unpleasant outcome, so why not just kick her to the curb?
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Their beliefs are pretty similar to Morrite ones. The only major difference is that the Elves have a more developed idea of what the journey to the afterlife looks like, and believe that if a Priest of Morai-heg isn't around to point the soul in the right direction, then the soul needs to make its way to one or strike out into the Aethyr on its own. But a soul wandering the Aethyr is easy prey to things a lot worse than Ereth Khial, so if an Elf is dying and there isn't a benign Dreaming Wood or a branch of the Waystone network for their soul to be able to travel along safely, some of them will reach out to Ereth Khial. She also stockpiles secrets and has servitor spirits with a range of nasty abilities, so unscrupulous Elves try to bargain with her, either with their own soul or with someone else's.

Some Elves don't like the idea of journeying into the Aethyr upon death whatever the destination, and instead seek to find shelter in the physical realm, usually their homeland. This is most common among Asrai, where they believe these souls join 'the Weave'.
 
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