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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Codex said:
Believe it or not, but Dwarves have crossed out the Grudges of the War of the Beard. There remains some heavy distrust and dislike, but the only animosity directed towards Ulthuan is the result of shit like the Cloak of Beards and stuff like that. The Dwarves have an open invitation for the Phoenix King of Ulthuan to come to Karaz A Karak and grovel to the High King, which would result in the Dwarves giving the Elves back the Phoenix Crown. It's just not happening though.

The general disdain Dwarves and Elves have against each other is the primary blocks to diplomacy, rather than actual capital G Grudges against every single Elf from Ulthuan.
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Wait seriously? How did that happen? The war of Vengence can't have been that effective right?
 
"Also totally not-Tzeench here with a shitty paper mask. Seriously, cut it out, we aren't letting you in."

"Fine, I'll content myself with just two spots in your mandala…"

"Yea yea whatever, now let's wait what did they just say?!"
 
Burned_Cookie said:
Wait seriously? How did that happen? The war of Vengence can't have been that effective right?
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This is the relevant quote from Boney:
Boney said:
Yes, Dwarves never forget a Grudge. They also don't forget that the Grudges were declared avenged with the death of the Phoenix King Caledor II and the taking of the Phoenix Crown of Aenerion as a trophy. Nor do they forget that those Grudges were against the Ten Kingdoms of Ulthuan, not against what was at the time a rebellious Elven colony that has since completely split from the Asur, both politically and culturally. There's distrust, sure, but not outright hatred. Even the tabletop rules explicitly say they have the 'Hatred' rule for Orcs and Goblins and Skaven, but not Elves.
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Dwarves are pretty straightforward sometimes. They declared the grudge avenged when Caledor died and the Phoenix Crown was taken. In canon, the Dwarves accepted the Everchild, the Phoenix King and Everqueen's daughter Aliathra, as a diplomat to Karaz A Karak, and they sent out an entire Throng to free her because despite their dislike of Elves because no diplomat to the Dwarves would be damaged on their watch.
 
Burned_Cookie said:
Wait seriously? How did that happen? The war of Vengence can't have been that effective right?
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The guy who bears responsibilty for the war as the king carries full responsibility for everything done in the war by his ultimate command.

If not,dwarfholds warring on each other would grudge spiral to mutual annihilation.
All his successor needs to reclaim his panoply is to acknowledge his wrongs.

The buck stops at the boss
 
Jreengus said:
It would help completely reframe the current spat between the Sigmarites and Ulricans. Instead of fighting over Nordland versus Laurelorn it would be over who gets to be the inner.
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I find it almost comical that two gods that are on record as liking each other, with one god accepting the other as his deity, would have their cults infight so much.

Sigmar liked Ulric so much he worshipped him, and yet his followers keep picking fights with Ulrics followers.

(And vice versa but that's less silly.)
 
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Burned_Cookie said:
Wait seriously? How did that happen? The war of Vengence can't have been that effective right?
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They killed the Phoenix King, levelled every elven city on the continent that hadn't declared independence, and took the Phoenix Crown of Aenerion as a trophy. And while the war had been happening, the Elves also got evicted from Araby by its human population. The War of Vengeance ended the Elven Empire, reducing what had been a worldwide colonial empire to a very small handful of surviving outposts. Here's the 'before' shot:



(If you know the canonical maps well, the longer you look at this the more bizarre errors you find, but they can be written off as an in-character errors by someone who only cared about ancient Elven ruins. 'What shape is Araby again? Pointy, right? Pointy and just about touching Estalia? I probably don't need to double-check that.')
 
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There was a mention of Mathilde getting the chance to study that crown yeah?

And yeah damn, messing with the Dawi is just a terrible idea. Whoever blew up that ship was playing a damn ballsy game messing around with the elders of the everpeak.
 
I think Loec and Randal may be the same god. The way elves worship gods seem to be extreme to humans but it may be that they are literally different species. The elven way of worship seems to be more extreme for every eleven god equivalent, except Khaine he is just straight up kill, murder and kill across species. Also Randal is a asshole , he once supposedly created Saratosa by answering a worshippers pray by creating a Volcano that created Saratosa.
 
Exact wiki quotes:
Starbreaker sent messengers to the Elves demanding to know the reason for the attacks and why the Phoenix King did little to resolve the crisis. The reply was immediate and uncompromising: if Gotrek wanted recompense he should come to the High Elf capital of Lothern, and beg for it.
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Any petitions to return the Phoenix Crown were greeted with an invitation to come and plead for it. The first Phoenix Crown remains in the great vault of Karaz-a-Karak to the present day, an enduring source of festering hatred and recrimination between the two peoples.
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It would not surprise me if the Dwarfs use exactly the same wording caledor did.
The right kind of petty.

Come to the capital, Karaz-a-Karak, and beg for it.
 
pucflek said:
Lets not forget that it shattered the Dwarf Empire too.
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Not on its own. The Dwarves probably would have recovered if it weren't for the fact that the Time of Woes kicked off a century later with a massive earthquake that shattered the Underway and severely damaged the defences of every Dwarfhold, followed immediately by every Dwarfhold coming under attack by both greenskins and the previously-unknown Skaven. The Time of Woes lasted 1500 years and the point where it is considered to have ended is when Sigmar rescued the High King of the time and entered into an alliance with the Karaz Ankor. The Empire's year one is the sixteenth year of the Silver Age of the Dwarfs.
 
Boney said:
Not on its own. The Dwarves probably would have recovered if it weren't for the fact that the Time of Woes kicked off a century later with a massive earthquake that shattered the Underway and severely damaged the defences of every Dwarfhold, followed immediately by every Dwarfhold coming under attack by both greenskins and the previously-unknown Skaven. The Time of Woes lasted 1500 years and the point where it is considered to have ended is when Sigmar rescued the High King of the time and entered into an alliance with the Karaz Ankor. The Empire's year one is the sixteenth year of the Silver Age of the Dwarfs.
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The same is true for the High Elves if they hadn't gotten drawn into the endless rounds of face-punching with the Dark Elves.
 
Boney said:
If Ranald isn't Loec, then Ranald probably really, really doesn't want to be shoved into a cage match with Loec.
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... Wait, why? The one big thing humans have over elves is god power. Ranald is also worshipped a lot more widely than Loec, considering how few elves are left relatively to humans. His chances of eating Loec would be a lot better than the inverse, especially compared to his other recent stunts.

I do not understand how he could be that much weaker than Loec that, if he isn't Loec already, this would make him really really think he'd lose.
 
It's worth considering that the reason the elves apparently didn't come back for round two after loosing the Phoenix Crown, and why they instead called all their colonists home is that right after they lost it Malekith invaded Ulthuan, so all their forces were needed on the home front.

The Phoenix Crown was lost in -1,600 IC, Malekith invaded on -1,599 IC, and the elven overseas colonists were called home from the Old Woeod and elsewhere to support the war against the dark elves in -1,501 IC, nearly a century later.

Based on this timeline, just like for the dwarves, the elves didn't lose their empire during the War of the Beard, when it ended they still had a fair amount of it. It just critically weakened them so that their other enemies could take advantage of them and so their empire fell.

storryeater said:
... Wait, why? The one big thing humans have over elves is god power. Ranald is also worshipped a lot more widely than Loec, considering how few elves are left relatively to humans. His chances of eating Loec would be a lot better than the inverse, especially compared to his other recent stunts.

I do not understand how he could be that much weaker than Loec that, if he isn't Loec already, this would make him really really think he'd lose.
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All elves probably 'worship' Loec some of the time, and each elf may be worth more as a worshipper.
 
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storryeater said:
... Wait, why? The one big thing humans have over elves is god power. Ranald is also worshipped a lot more widely than Loec, considering how few elves are left relatively to humans. His chances of eating Loec would be a lot better than the inverse, especially compared to his other recent stunts.

I do not understand how he could be that much weaker than Loec that, if he isn't Loec already, this would make him really really think he'd lose.
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Isn't there a lot more Elves than there are (Empire) Humans?
 
storryeater said:
... Wait, why? The one big thing humans have over elves is god power. Ranald is also worshipped a lot more widely than Loec, considering how few elves are left relatively to humans. His chances of eating Loec would be a lot better than the inverse, especially compared to his other recent stunts.

I do not understand how he could be that much weaker than Loec that, if he isn't Loec already, this would make him really really think he'd lose.
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Loec picks fights with Slaanesh. Loec caused the death and diaspora of over a hundred gods. Some legends say Loec learned cunning from Draugnir, others say Draugnir learned it from Loec. And if any God understands that brute strength does not win every fight, it would be Ranald.
 
storryeater said:
That would be true if we were comparing elven gods with any god other than Ranald. Ranald gets worshipped by most humans on occassion, because everyone wants luck.
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Everyone dies, everyone dreams, everyone gets sick, most women have children; the great majority of the population is dependent on the harvest, everyone in the Empire probably takes part in state-ish religious practices.

The great majority of Imperial humans worship all the major gods to some degree, I can't see this as something special or unique to Ranald. Most people have a favourite they chose as their patron, but apart from that they recognise and worship all the gods in relation to their sphere of influence.
 
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