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I feel like we're talking a lot about solutions to theoretical or extrapolated problems. Unless my memory is being terrible again, as far as I know we haven't actually investigated enough of Nordland's stuff, so we don't really know for sure what the exact problems there might be, or how they might be solved.

Maybe we should use the EIC to investigate stuff? Even if you're in the "i dont care about Nordland, I just want to focus on the Waystone Project" camp, I feel like it would be wise to learn how much of a threat the Nordland/Laurelorn tensions may pose to the Project.
 
That is not the biggest problem, the bigger problem is that the same guys that you would have patrolling or guarding those edges of the Forrest can't then fight the beastmen that are the bigger problem.

When the QM flat out states the biggest problem was the threat of a war with the Empire, then the threat of war with the Empire was the biggest problem. I don't understand how people keep arguing against that.
 
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When the QM flat out states the biggest problem was the threat of a war with the Empire, then war with the Empire was the biggest problem. I don't understand how people keep arguing against that.
The biggest threat of retaliating against Nordland... Not the only threat. Their Forrest is not small and posting sentries everywhere now that they can kill random nordlanders again is still rather manpower intensive.
 
The fact that they consistently found and reported such instances to Nordland over and over again indicates that they had no trouble keeping an eye on their border. The fact that the only thing keeping them from expulsing the interlopers was a treaty and the threat of war from breaking said treaty indicates that they were capable of it otherwise.
 
The fact that they consistently found and reported such instances to Nordland over and over again indicates that they had no trouble keeping an eye on their border. The fact that the only thing keeping them from expulsing the interlopers was a treaty and the threat of war from breaking said treaty indicates that they were capable of it otherwise.
... You can report things after they happened. Isn't that great?
 
I highly doubt the elves didn't notice the erection of entire villages until after they were done being built. The spites and things living in the trees can spot it at any time.

It's like if a squirrel could call 911 on you if you trespassed onto a National Park; the number of things you can get away with undetected is startlingly low, and pretty small.
 
I highly doubt the elves didn't notice the erection of entire villages until after they were done being built. The spites and things living in the trees can spot it at any time.

It's like if a squirrel could call 911 on you if you trespassed onto a National Park; the number of things you can get away with undetected is startlingly low, and pretty small.
How many sprites do you think are under direct Control of the Grey lords? How many acres of Forrest do you think the eonir have, how many elves are actually out there standing guard all around the Forrest?
Sprites will only do things for you when you bind them, the eonir are better then anyone at this but I doubt they have enslaved all sprites in the Forrest.
Not every squirrel knows 911 or owns a phone.
 
In 40k, Slaanesh has dibs on Eldar souls because the Eldar gave birth to them, and the Eldar go to great lengths to try to avoid this fate, either covering literally everything in soul stones or seek immortality by sacrificing the souls of others.
Heck, it's even worse than that; in 40k, Slaanesh also can consume Eldar souls without a problem (absent soul stones etc.) because basically all the Eldar gods except the murder clown are dead, courtesy of already getting eaten by Slaanesh. The fact that the Eldar god(s) who normally had dibs on Eldar souls got subsumed into Slaanesh is probably also metaphysically relevant, though I don't remember if that's ever explicitly highlighted anywhere. In WHF that is emphatically not the case. So it's actually even more half-assed of a copy/paste than you already said. Which is impressive, considering how half-assed it already was.
 
How many sprites do you think are under direct Control of the Grey lords? How many acres of Forrest do you think the eonir have, how many elves are actually out there standing guard all around the Forrest?
Sprites will only do things for you when you bind them, the eonir are better then anyone at this but I doubt they have enslaved all sprites in the Forrest.
Not every squirrel knows 911 or owns a phone.
Every tree does in fact own a phone, we've been in the forest and seen how their detection system works. It is very good. Not only are the trees themselves witnesses that point in the direction of any intruder, they also host the spites (who hardly need to be enslaved to defend their homes), prevent swift passage and in general serve as a veritable fortress to defend.

This idea that the peasants are the problem instead of the armies of Nordland is fantastical. If it was the case then there would be no point in getting Middenland to pressure Nordland to stop in the first place, and the Eonir wouldn't have done it. But there is. So long as Middenland pressures Nordland not fight the Eonir, the Eonir can kill an arbitrary number of disorganized peasants, thus the whole arrangement we've seen.

If one were to assume the Eonir cannot kill an unlimited number of peasants one would have to ask how the hell they handle the beastmen, since they are essentially the same kind of threat, only much worse thanks to the power of Chaos.
 
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I feel like we're talking a lot about solutions to theoretical or extrapolated problems. Unless my memory is being terrible again, as far as I know we haven't actually investigated enough of Nordland's stuff, so we don't really know for sure what the exact problems there might be, or how they might be solved.

Maybe we should use the EIC to investigate stuff? Even if you're in the "i dont care about Nordland, I just want to focus on the Waystone Project" camp, I feel like it would be wise to learn how much of a threat the Nordland/Laurelorn tensions may pose to the Project.

I don't think this is a secret.

The Grand Baron is upset because Laurelorn drove his subjects from their homes, killing some of them in the process, and cut off a very important source of income. Nordland is not a rich province, and the loss of those illegal settlements hurt.

The powerful and hostile Elector Count of Middenland then proceeded to publicly humiliate the Grand Baron using elvish records that provided evidence of treaty violations. The Grand Baron lost respect and status among his peers, who now see him as a man who broke a treaty, lied about it, and tried to get the rest of the Empire to fix a problem he created.

In this case, the law is quite simple. The strong do as they like, and the weak suffer what they must. Once Middenland decided to support Laurelorn, it became possible for the Eonir to remove the illegal settlements. Nordland would have a dubious chance against Laurelorn alone; with Middenland on the side of the Eonir, the Grand Baron didn't have a chance. His only hope was to call upon his peers, who were less than enthusiastic about sending soldiers to aid a treaty-breaker in a war of choice.

Innocent people died, and more innocent people were driven from their homes. Peasants and cityfolk who didn't live beyond the border suffered and are suffering as a result. But common people don't have the power to do anything about this, and the Elector Counts are not themselves elected. They don't have to care about the hardships of the peasantry.

The reason I think the Eonir should have been hard-liners from the very beginning is that the Imperial nobility do not worry about a few dead peasants. I suspect the Grand Baron cares very much about the loss of money, possibly even more about the loss of respect, and very little about the widows and orphans of lumberjacks. Hindsight is 20/20, and the elves were trying to solve problems through negotiation, but sadly they probably would have seen better results if they just shot the first man to build a house on the wrong side of the river.

... You can report things after they happened. Isn't that great?

Large-scale lumber operations are not commando raids.

It is possible for a bold and skilled lumberjack to sneak across the river, cut down a tree, and try to bring it back. If he's good and lucky, he could make it. But the Eonir could and did tolerate that kind of minor treaty violation for centuries. They didn't want to lose the trees, but it wasn't that big a deal to them.

The real problem started when the peasants realized that the treaty wasn't being enforced, so they could cross over the river and create permanent logging camps. Those logging camps become villages, and some of the villages became towns, and eventually "a tree every now and then" became a cornerstone of Nordland's economy.

A permanent settlement can cut down far more trees than a few frightened men sneaking across the river in a boat. Even if the Eonir don't absolutely halt all logging operations, they can reduce them to the point that trees are replaced more rapidly than they're being lost. Mission accomplished.

Again, a logging camp is not sneaky. A permanent village is obvious to literally anyone with eyes. The Eonir are able and willing to kill as many peasants as necessary to preserve their defense system. This is obviously not a kind or a good solution, since the lumberjacks are only trying to feed their families, but it is a solution.
 
Heck, it's even worse than that; in 40k, Slaanesh also can consume Eldar souls without a problem (absent soul stones etc.) because basically all the Eldar gods except the murder clown are dead, courtesy of already getting eaten by Slaanesh. The fact that the Eldar god(s) who normally had dibs on Eldar souls got subsumed into Slaanesh is probably also metaphysically relevant, though I don't remember if that's ever explicitly highlighted anywhere. In WHF that is emphatically not the case. So it's actually even more half-assed of a copy/paste than you already said. Which is impressive, considering how half-assed it already was.
Well, murderclown, Khaine and Isha aren't dead in 40k. Khaine's just literally all over the place, and Isha's kept in a cage by Nurgle.
 
The real problem started when the peasants realized that the treaty wasn't being enforced, so they could cross over the river and create permanent logging camps. Those logging camps become villages, and some of the villages became towns, and eventually "a tree every now and then" became a cornerstone of Nordland's economy.
As a point of order, those first few permanent logging camps and villages across the river were allowed by treaty; it's when those villages naturally grew and expanded beyond the assgined limits that the problems started.
 
As a point of order, those first few permanent logging camps and villages across the river were allowed by treaty; it's when those villages naturally grew and expanded beyond the assgined limits that the problems started.
Well, thats how treaties made under duress tend to wind up. Laurelorn needed the breathing space to deal with beastmen more than long term viability so they agreed to a disadvantaged deal, and then it got worse.
 
Hindsight is 20/20, and the elves were trying to solve problems through negotiation, but sadly they probably would have seen better results if they just shot the first man to build a house on the wrong side of the river.
The Eonir didn't get that humans are a horde type species as far as Warhammer goes, or at least much further along that spectrum than elves are. So they ascribed a lot more importance to some dead peasants than the nobles likely would have.

They also appear to possibly be too honest for their own good, as the nobles would definitely have accepted a pro forma 'Beastmen must have got them before we could intervene. It was very sad. Here are some Beastmen skulls that definitely could be said to be fundamentally responsible for their deaths in case their families would like some cathartic vengeance smashing them. Please try to watch your peasants more carefully, the woods are dangerous and vast, and we are few and stretched to our utmost preventing war herds and waaaghs from hitting you from that flank.'
 
I mean, since we're talking about the start of the treaty, here's the history:

Since then they've been largely isolationist, but much less violently so than the Asrai. After a rocky start with the now-extinct province of Drakwald's attempts to conquer them early in the Empire's history, they actually came to the aid of the Empire during the destruction of Drakwald by Beastmen, and then later during Mandred Skavenslayer's war against the Skaven. Over time relationships improved to the point that they actually signed a treaty allowing limited logging by Nordland in 1700. But something must have changed, and by 2168 things had soured to the extent that Laurelorn's army besieged Nordland's capital of Salzenmund until the Grand Baron of the time begged forgiveness. You're not sure if Nordland failed to learn a lesson from this, or if this emboldened Laurelorn to start reconsidering their concessions. The different books you have on the subject reach wildly different conclusions about who is to blame.

The treaty came in the wake of centuries of slowly improved relations and cooperation in the face of the fall of Drakwald and the Black Death. Leaving aside whatever happened in 2168, I have no problems believing that Nordland attempted to act in good faith on an individual basis, with transgressions being minor and encroaching unintentionally over the span of generations.
 
At first genuinely yeah Nordland probably attemtped to act in good faith on an individual basis but there was undoubtedly a point where the new grand baron is reminded of the treaty, goes to see how much they're supposed to crack down on by the terms of the treaty and then realizes that an unacceptable amount of their territory is not actually theirs. And given that's currently a quarter of their territory, that date is probably closer to the signing of the treaty than it is to the modern day.
 
Did the Eonir have strong reasons to do this? Absolutely. Is the Grand Baron highly motivated to seek revenge? Absolutely. Will the Eonir be trading through Nordland in the near future? No.
That's the point, if we do some sneaky spreading of rumors, news, speculation of what trade with Laurelorn could give the other parts of the Empire, Nordland gets even more pressure to cool it's shit.
  • How the Asur seem to not value Eldrazor very highly despite him being the most "acceptable" war god. No one seems to regard him very highly in fact. Especially if one takes the canon numbered lists next to the Mandalas as meaningful instead of just seeing three unitary categories.
Eldrazor is, iirc, the god of duels. Before the Druchii-Asur split and the War of Vengeance he was likely a LOT more popular, but the current political stance on him is likely one of 'worshiping him wastes Asur lives for nothing'.
What might it say about them that they revere Loec, Lileath and Kurnous less than the Asur and the Asrai. And they don't even have a replacement like the Druuchi have in Anath Raema.
This is just my read of what we've seen in Laurelorn, take it with a grain of salt, but it seems that Kurnous specifically would be out because of the Eonir's relationship with nature. It's less 'harmony' and more 'domestication'. The Asrai do not tame the forest. They specifically live in partnership with it, and are beholden to it. The Eonir tamed the forest spirits. The Asur have big hunting traditions, like really big because ever since the coming of Chaos the Annulli mountains have been spewing an unending tide of mutated monsters into Ulthuan that must be hunted. Also cultural stuff like hunters in Chrace.
 
Speaking of murderclowns, is Cegorach the 40k parallel of Loec or they are different?

Sort of. There's a common theme of being trickster party gods that fuck with Slaanesh, but Loec doesn't have the clown theme, he has Wardancers instead. And Cegorach has a lot of prominence because he's the last Eldar God left whole, whereas Loec is one God among a pantheon and can focus on his niche.
 
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Sort of. There's a common theme of being trickster party gods that fuck with Slaanesh, but Loec doesn't have the clown theme, he has Wardancers instead. And Cegorach has a lot of prominence because he's the last Eldar God left whole, whereas Loec is one God among a pantheon and can focus on his niche.
Even with those differences, I really want to look deeper into Leoc soon. Cegorach was basically the reason I got into Warhammer at all, and Loec still tickles a lot of those spots. Even if he's not really Ranald and it's some trickster god collaboration or they're related or something that makes their energies look similar, it would still be really cool to learn about him with Mathilde. If he is Ranald… well. Maybe Mathilde can learn how to dance. :V
 
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