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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Boney said:
The children of Ellinill.
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I don't have the patience to chase up a huge quote block and this may well have been covered in the seven thousand odd pages I haven't read (or the immense amount of canon WHF lore I don't know), but I distinctly recall that in this quest at least the Ancient Widow was specifically pissed off at Ranald for reasons related to the destruction of the Ellinill. Like I don't think we ever got the particulars of that grudge, but the Ellinill situation was specifically brought up by the super cool Ice Witch whose name I'm too lazy to go recall as the reason the Ancient Widow and her kin were leery of letting Ranald pass through their lands.

I haven't seen anyone else bring up this connection and it feels like it has meat on it? Add the connection that someone brought up earlier with Deathfang pinning Mathilde as a servant of the Dancer and there's definitely some sort of connection between who Ranald is and who Loec is beyond 'cool Gods you should respect.'
 
RagnorakTres said:
I don't have the patience to chase up a huge quote block and this may well have been covered in the seven thousand odd pages I haven't read (or the immense amount of canon WHF lore I don't know), but I distinctly recall that in this quest at least the Ancient Widow was specifically pissed off at Ranald for reasons related to the destruction of the Ellinill. Like I don't think we ever got the particulars of that grudge, but the Ellinill situation was specifically brought up by the super cool Ice Witch whose name I'm too lazy to go recall as the reason the Ancient Widow and her kin were leery of letting Ranald pass through their lands.
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I don't think it was specified as being the Ellinill, just that the Kislev gods had siblings who also got killed by Ranald? Or something he did caused their deaths, the Line is a little blurry there. The Ellinill is the most likely thing to be that, but I can't remember if that was confirmed?
 
RagnorakTres said:
I don't have the patience to chase up a huge quote block and this may well have been covered in the seven thousand odd pages I haven't read (or the immense amount of canon WHF lore I don't know), but I distinctly recall that in this quest at least the Ancient Widow was specifically pissed off at Ranald for reasons related to the destruction of the Ellinill. Like I don't think we ever got the particulars of that grudge, but the Ellinill situation was specifically brought up by the super cool Ice Witch whose name I'm too lazy to go recall as the reason the Ancient Widow and her kin were leery of letting Ranald pass through their lands.

I haven't seen anyone else bring up this connection and it feels like it has meat on it? Add the connection that someone brought up earlier with Deathfang pinning Mathilde as a servant of the Dancer and there's definitely some sort of connection between who Ranald is and who Loec is beyond 'cool Gods you should respect.'
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Ericwinter said:
I don't think it was specified as being the Ellinill, just that the Kislev gods had siblings who also got killed by Ranald? Or something he did caused their deaths, the Line is a little blurry there. The Ellinill is the most likely thing to be that, but I can't remember if that was confirmed?
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Here's the relevant quote:
Boney said:
"And now he seems to be making amends. You do not know the tale?" You shake your head. "The short of it is that the Widow and Her siblings were once much more than four, before Salyak had your Ranald interfere." She sighs, and closes her eyes again. "The details are ugly, and not to be shared with those outside Their service. In the aftermath They found us, the Gospodar. So perhaps it was for the best. But amends are still required."
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deathofrats0808 said:
Here's the relevant quote:
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Yeah, so not an explicit confirmation. Plus, even if there are a lot of similarities, there's also some differences. For one, five Ellinilli survived, not four—Mathlann being the odd one out in drawing parallels between the survivors and the Kislevites—and also, apparently, Drakira, who would be the Widow if they were the same group, was also partially responsible for the whole mess. According to Wikipedia, at least. She apparently was the one who made Isha's grief so strong she went looking for help from Leoc, precisely because Drakira wanted to kill all her siblings for mocking her subtler approach to destruction.

Not sure how accurate that all is, given Wikipedia, but I do think I remember the thing about Mathlann being an Ellinilli.
 
Drakira, Estreuth, Addaioth, Hukon, and Mathlann were Ellinilli who survived and are still worshipped as part of the Elven pantheon.
 
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Boney said:
I don't mean their mailing address is just down the road from Ellinill, I mean they're still worshipped by Elves.
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Ah, okay. Fair enough. Suppose you don't actually need to know where your god is to worship them.

EDIT: danggit, now I'm remembering the fresh out of mercy line. Such a missed opportunity.
 
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RagnorakTres said:
I don't have the patience to chase up a huge quote block and this may well have been covered in the seven thousand odd pages I haven't read (or the immense amount of canon WHF lore I don't know), but I distinctly recall that in this quest at least the Ancient Widow was specifically pissed off at Ranald for reasons related to the destruction of the Ellinill. Like I don't think we ever got the particulars of that grudge, but the Ellinill situation was specifically brought up by the super cool Ice Witch whose name I'm too lazy to go recall as the reason the Ancient Widow and her kin were leery of letting Ranald pass through their lands.

I haven't seen anyone else bring up this connection and it feels like it has meat on it? Add the connection that someone brought up earlier with Deathfang pinning Mathilde as a servant of the Dancer and there's definitely some sort of connection between who Ranald is and who Loec is beyond 'cool Gods you should respect.'
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This did indeed come up a buncn of times in the last seven thousand pages. I think that everything has been covered in the last seven thousand pages. It's been said in the ancient texts that if one studies the thread for long enough one can unlock the secrets of creation.

Yeah, the story of the Kislev pantheon does seem to resemble the story of the Ellinilli very well. It's not outright said that this is what it is, but I think it is very likely:
mathymancer said:
Now, supposedly the Kislev pantheon are all siblings, and they used to be a lot more numerous. The only known example of a large number of siblings Gods is the Ellinilli, which were mostly killed off, just like the family of the Kislev pantheon. The domains of the Kislev pantheon could fit being disasters: Tor is lightning, Dazh is fire and/or drought, Ursun is getting eaten by bears and the Ancient Widow is winter/cold/old age? They might be like Mathlann, a God of drowning and shipwrecks that got rehabiltated as a God of sailing in general (but also drowning and shipwrecks), and this fits with the idea in Kislev that their Gods are kind of harsh. The Widow mentioned Ranald being asked by Salyak, which all but confirms that Salyak is Shallya which was already very likely. Ranald and Shallya bear some similarity to Loec and Isha, and their mention in this context seems to indicate that they are one and the same. Now, I personally am not 100% sure that Ranald=Loec and Shallya=Isha, I think they might be related by not quite identical. But in any case the story of the Kislev pantheon does seem very very similar to that of the Ellinilli.
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The Kislev pantheon, if they are Ellinilli, are probably not just some of the five Ellinilli that the elves worship but instead are Ellinilli that the elves don't know survived. It's also been suggested (by Cython and Cadaeth) that Ulric might be the same, and Ulric is pretty respected in Kislev, so make of that as you will.

That definitely draws a connection between Loec and Ranald. And Deathfang saying that Mathilde serves the dancer is another thing that seems to imply that Loec=Ranald. But I am not quite convinced, because they differ in pretty significant ways. A few pages ago I suggested that maybe Ranald is Loec's son, which I think can explain the available evidence reasonably well but is admittedly very speculative.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Manann might be worshipped by the Steppe Tribes as the God of the White Moon. We actually haven't confirmed that by examining the shrine we stole, but the moon is called "Mannslieb" in the Empire, which means "Beloved of Manann" (presumably because of the tidal influence).
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Unless they learned of the significance of Moon to the tides from Norscans, i rather doubt they ever had reason to connect the two.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Manann might be worshipped by the Steppe Tribes as the God of the White Moon. We actually haven't confirmed that by examining the shrine we stole, but the moon is called "Mannslieb" in the Empire, which means "Beloved of Manann" (presumably because of the tidal influence).
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That is a fairly Old World centric point of view that Mathilde adopts because of her perspective, and also because it gives her an excuse to investigate it without being considered a heretic. I think it's more likely that what the Steppe tribes worship is likely a different god, as there have been a few examples of Moon gods that have nothing to do with Manaan. Lileath is the most prominent example, but there's also Neru and the Moon Empress.
 
Codex said:
That is a fairly Old World centric point of view that Mathilde adopts because of her perspective, and also because it gives her an excuse to investigate it without being considered a heretic. I think it's more likely that what the Steppe tribes worship is likely a different god, as there have been a few examples of Moon gods that have nothing to do with Manaan. Lileath is the most prominent example, but there's also Neru and the Moon Empress.
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Moon Empress: Not a god!

Also Moon Empress: you over there, go build another shrine to me!
 
Codex said:
That is a fairly Old World centric point of view that Mathilde adopts because of her perspective, and also because it gives her an excuse to investigate it without being considered a heretic. I think it's more likely that what the Steppe tribes worship is likely a different god, as there have been a few examples of Moon gods that have nothing to do with Manaan. Lileath is the most prominent example, but there's also Neru and the Moon Empress.
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I think the expedition was before the Cathay trailer so we can cross the Moon Empress off the list.
 
Andres said:
I think the expedition was before the Cathay trailer so we can cross the Moon Empress off the list.
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I'm not listing possible gods though? I'm using her as an example of different gods representing the moon. I think whatever the Kurgan worship is more likely to be new and unique than it representing an already existing god.
 
Codex said:
That is a fairly Old World centric point of view that Mathilde adopts because of her perspective, and also because it gives her an excuse to investigate it without being considered a heretic. I think it's more likely that what the Steppe tribes worship is likely a different god, as there have been a few examples of Moon gods that have nothing to do with Manaan. Lileath is the most prominent example, but there's also Neru and the Moon Empress.
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Whilst it could be someone new, and I'm not willing to cross out that possibility until we get more data, of the existing known gods with a link to the moon, I feel Manann is the strongest candidate.

Edit: quoted wrong post.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Whilst it could be someone new, and I'm not willing to cross out that possibility until we get more data, of the existing known gods with a link to the moon, I feel Manann is the strongest candidate.
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With existing known gods with a link to the moon I'm pretty sure the strongest candidate would be the Nekeharan white moon goddess. Manann I think is only strongest if you're restricting yourself to Old World gods specifically, but that's a pretty arbitrary restriction.
 
Ericwinter said:
Even with those differences, I really want to look deeper into Leoc soon. Cegorach was basically the reason I got into Warhammer at all, and Loec still tickles a lot of those spots. Even if he's not really Ranald and it's some trickster god collaboration or they're related or something that makes their energies look similar, it would still be really cool to learn about him with Mathilde. If he is Ranald… well. Maybe Mathilde can learn how to dance. :V
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I agree with this so much. I adore Harlequins so much that they're tied for my favourite faction with Imperial Guard of all things.
 
N39TUN3 said:
I agree with this so much. I adore Harlequins so much that they're tied for my favourite faction with Imperial Guard of all things.
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I would usually agree, but I'm currently suffering space clown elf trama playing against the new codex with my grey knights.

Can't even get salty at my friend for playing the over tuned army: he's been playing them when they were bad.
 
reignonyrparade said:
With existing known gods with a link to the moon I'm pretty sure the strongest candidate would be the Nekeharan white moon goddess. Manann I think is only strongest if you're restricting yourself to Old World gods specifically, but that's a pretty arbitrary restriction.
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Manann is a god of the Northern Pantheon, same as Ulric, and one of the primeval Ellinilli gods as well. It makes more sense for his worship to extend to the steppe than a southern god who may or may not be dead, and we know there's contact between the Norscans, who have close ties to the sea, and the Steppe nomads. It's possible that his worship spread from the Norscan's, transforming from a nature god of the sea to a nature god of the moon, especially when his sea aspect is closely associated with the phases of the moon.

Again, it could be someone new, I'm not saying it isn't, but there is a plausible link to Manann as well.
 
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