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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Nehekharan Gods aren't dead unless you're talking about End Times, where Nagash eats all of them. Nehekharan Priests still invoke Neru on one of their spells.

I don't think the Kurgan are worshipping Neru but the "Nehekharan Gods are dead" is such an irritating statement because I keep seeing it despite the fact that it's not even true.
 
Codex said:
Nehekharan Gods aren't dead unless you're talking about End Times, where Nagash eats all of them. Nehekharan Priests still invoke Neru on one of their spells.

I don't think the Kurgan are worshipping Neru but the "Nehekharan Gods are dead" is such an irritating statement because I keep seeing it despite the fact that it's not even true.
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See I think this has been gone over a couple of times before but i believe its brought about by the covenant of the gods being broken in the first Nagash book as he breaches the walls of Mahrak after killing his wife (or it might have been his dead brothers wife) who is the physical representation of that covenant.

After that in the books there are a few mentions (from his dead wifes ghost) that there is now nothing beyond death but blackness and the keening of lost souls. Which does imply that the gods are dead. Or at least no longer take an interest in mortal affairs. My own personal headcanon is that the liche priests managed to effectively create lore of light and death spells (and their own separate pseudo necromantic lore) with the symbolic representations of their now absent gods powers. Which still bore enough metaphysical weight that they didn't necessarily need the gods to respond in order to work. And this is why they work like a lore of magic rather than say a priest of sigmar or the like on tabletop.

Its a theory that is full of holes i do acknowledge but its one that fits into the specific niches that i need to to in order to appeal.
 
Khalida is still empowered by Asaph, and Apophas still gets his marching orders from Usirian. Not to mention a crater in Nehekhara where two Tomb King armies have been cursed by the gods to fight eternally.

If the Nehekharan gods are dead, it's only in the same way the Nehekharans themselves are- still active despite that.
 
Codex said:
Nehekharan Gods aren't dead unless you're talking about End Times, where Nagash eats all of them. Nehekharan Priests still invoke Neru on one of their spells.

I don't think the Kurgan are worshipping Neru but the "Nehekharan Gods are dead" is such an irritating statement because I keep seeing it despite the fact that it's not even true.
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Sorry, I keep forgetting where in the timeline the Nehekaran gods die—for some reason I have it in my head that Nagashs accession as a lord of undeath killed them all, rather than it being solely an endtimes thing.
 
I've never read the novels. If a theory requires reading the novels to understand it, then I'm not particularly invested in it. The writers of those novels are explicitly given free reign to do whatever the hell they want and make stuff up, and it's only after the fact that GW writers (sometimes) read those novels and implement stuff that they actually like from them. Like the Gotrek and Felix books.
 
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I'm not trying to weigh in on any side of this particular debate, but it always leaves me utterly perplexed when people accept as a given that if the Nehekharan Gods are dead, they're no longer able to do things. It does not take a great deal of research into Nehekhara to find a compelling counterargument to the idea that dead things are no longer able to act.
 
Boney said:
I'm not trying to weigh in on any side of this particular debate, but it always leaves me utterly perplexed when people accept as a given that if the Nehekharan Gods are dead, they're no longer able to do things. It does not take a great deal of research into Nehekhara to find a compelling counterargument to the idea that dead things are no longer able to act.
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There is a lizard or two that might have a word about that too :V
 
Boney said:
I'm not trying to weigh in on any side of this particular debate, but it always leaves me utterly perplexed when people accept as a given that if the Nehekharan Gods are dead, they're no longer able to do things. It does not take a great deal of research into Nehekhara to find a compelling counterargument to the idea that dead things are no longer able to act.
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So you can use necromancy on gods? Interesting…😏

More seriously, the Tomb Kings can move because their souls are emprisoned in their body, right? So I wonder how undead gods would function. If the Nehakharan ones are indeed dead, of course. Personally I don't think they are.
 
Lonkas said:
See I think this has been gone over a couple of times before but i believe its brought about by the covenant of the gods being broken in the first Nagash book as he breaches the walls of Mahrak after killing his wife (or it might have been his dead brothers wife) who is the physical representation of that covenant.

After that in the books there are a few mentions (from his dead wifes ghost) that there is now nothing beyond death but blackness and the keening of lost souls. Which does imply that the gods are dead. Or at least no longer take an interest in mortal affairs. My own personal headcanon is that the liche priests managed to effectively create lore of light and death spells (and their own separate pseudo necromantic lore) with the symbolic representations of their now absent gods powers. Which still bore enough metaphysical weight that they didn't necessarily need the gods to respond in order to work. And this is why they work like a lore of magic rather than say a priest of sigmar or the like on tabletop.

Its a theory that is full of holes i do acknowledge but its one that fits into the specific niches that i need to to in order to appeal.
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I don't see why the Time of Legends novels should get primacy over every other source.
 
Codex said:
Nehekharan Gods aren't dead unless you're talking about End Times, where Nagash eats all of them. Nehekharan Priests still invoke Neru on one of their spells.

I don't think the Kurgan are worshipping Neru but the "Nehekharan Gods are dead" is such an irritating statement because I keep seeing it despite the fact that it's not even true.
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When has being dead ever stopped anything in nehekhara?

Edit: Ninja'd
 
IronFist said:
When has being dead ever stopped anything in nehekhara?
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I'm not arguing over whether they can or can't do anything while dead. I'm arguing that there is no significant evidence that they are dead in the first place, at least in the mainline sources. 8th Edition Settra says once that "The Gods have abandoned us" and people have taken that to mean that they're dead, but that's just Settra's interpretation, and he's clearly wrong because Khalida is walking around still blessed by Asaph.
 
Codex said:
I'm not arguing over whether they can or can't do anything while dead. I'm arguing that there is no significant evidence that they are dead in the first place, at least in the mainline sources. 8th Edition Settra says once that "The Gods have abandoned us" and people have taken that to mean that they're dead, but that's just Settra's interpretation, and he's clearly wrong because Khalida is walking around still blessed by Asaph.
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Indeed.
Mathilde has a good case for "Sigmar has abandoned us", yet even she doesn't claim he's dead yet.

There's a reason she asked for the best sword Kragg could make.:whistle:
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
SETTRA ARGEES, SETTRA CANT THINK OF SOMEONE MORE ARROGANT!
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You mean, Settra, the Great King? Settra the Imperishable? Settra the Khemrikhara, The Great King of Nehekhara, King of Kings, Opener of the Way, Wielder of the Divine Flame, Punisher of Nomads, The Great Unifier, Commander of the Golden Legion, Sacred of Appearance, Bringer of Light, Father of Hawks, Builder of Cities, Protector of the Two Worlds, Keeper of the Hours, Chosen of Ptra, High Steward of the Horizon, Sailor of the Great Vitae, Sentinel of the Two Realms, The Undisputed, Begetter of the Begat, Scourge of the Faithless, Carrion-feeder, First of the Charnel Valley, Rider of the Sacred Chariot, Vanquisher of Vermin, Champion of the Death Arena, Mighty Lion of the Infinite Desert, Emperor of the Shifting Sands, He Who Holds The Sceptre, Great Hawk Of The Heavens, Arch-Sultan of Atalan, Waker of the Hierotitan, Monarch of the Sky, Majestic Emperor of the Shifting Sands, Champion of the Desert Gods, Breaker of the Ogre Clans, Builder of the Great Pyramid, Terror of the Living, Master of the Never-Ending Horizon, Master of the Necropolises, Taker of Souls, Tyrant to the Foolish, Bearer of Ptra's Holy Blade, Scion of Usirian, Scion of Nehek, The Great, Chaser of Nightmares, Keeper of the Royal Herat, Founder of the Mortuary Cult, Banisher of the Grand Hierophant, High Lord Admiral of the Deathfleets, Guardian of the Charnal Pass, Tamer of the Liche King, Unliving Jackal Lord, Dismisser of the Warrior Queen, Charioteer of the Gods, He Who Does Not Serve, Slayer off Reddittras, Scarab Purger, Favoured of Usirian, Player of the Great Game, Liberator of Life, Lord Sand, Wrangler of Scorpions, Emperor of the Dunes, Eternal Sovereign of Khemri's Legions, Seneschal of the Great Sandy Desert, Curserer of the Living, Regent of the Eastern Mountains, Warden of the Eternal Necropolis, Herald of all Heralds, Caller of the Bitter Wind, God-Tamer, Master of the Mortis River, Guardian of the Dead, Great Keeper of the Obelisks, Deacon of the Ash River, Belated of Wakers, General of the Mighty Frame, Summoner of Sandstorms, Master of all Necrotects, Prince of Dust, Tyrant of Araby, Purger of the Greenskin Breathers, Killer of the False God's Champions, Tyrant of the Gold Dunes, Golden Bone Lord, Avenger of the Dead, Carrion Master, Eternal Warden of Nehek's Lands, Breaker of Djaf's Bonds... that Settra?
 
Codex said:
I'm not arguing over whether they can or can't do anything while dead. I'm arguing that there is no significant evidence that they are dead in the first place, at least in the mainline sources. 8th Edition Settra says once that "The Gods have abandoned us" and people have taken that to mean that they're dead, but that's just Settra's interpretation, and he's clearly wrong because Khalida is walking around still blessed by Asaph.
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I mean is Setra wrong? One can certainly make the argument, but as far as I can see the notion that they are not dead hinges on our understanding of how Khalida's blessing works. His understanding on the other hand hinges on being Setra, with all the access to the Lore of the Covenant he made with all the Liche Priests who serve him. Personally I would hesitate to dismiss that he thinks of the matter out of hand.I am wagering his Piety and Learning skills with regards to the Gods are though the roof to put it in DL terms.
 
Codex said:
Nehekharan Gods aren't dead unless you're talking about End Times, where Nagash eats all of them. Nehekharan Priests still invoke Neru on one of their spells. I don't think the Kurgan are worshipping Neru but the "Nehekharan Gods are dead" is such an irritating statement because I keep seeing it despite the fact that it's not even true.
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Curious as to what they were all up to when the Nehekharans all died and went into their tombs for at least a few hundred years though. Some of them had to have gone to Araby or north in search of fresh followers...

Dragonofelder said:
You mean, Settra, the Great King? Settra the Imperishable? Settra the Khemrikhara, The Great King of Nehekhara, King of Kings, Opener of the Way, Wielder of the Divine Flame, Punisher of Nomads, The Great Unifier, Commander of the Golden Legion, Sacred of Appearance, Bringer of Light, Father of Hawks, Builder of Cities, Protector of the Two Worlds, Keeper of the Hours, Chosen of Ptra, High Steward of the Horizon, Sailor of the Great Vitae, Sentinel of the Two Realms, The Undisputed, Begetter of the Begat, Scourge of the Faithless, Carrion-feeder, First of the Charnel Valley, Rider of the Sacred Chariot, Vanquisher of Vermin, Champion of the Death Arena, Mighty Lion of the Infinite Desert, Emperor of the Shifting Sands, He Who Holds The Sceptre, Great Hawk Of The Heavens, Arch-Sultan of Atalan, Waker of the Hierotitan, Monarch of the Sky, Majestic Emperor of the Shifting Sands, Champion of the Desert Gods, Breaker of the Ogre Clans, Builder of the Great Pyramid, Terror of the Living, Master of the Never-Ending Horizon, Master of the Necropolises, Taker of Souls, Tyrant to the Foolish, Bearer of Ptra's Holy Blade, Scion of Usirian, Scion of Nehek, The Great, Chaser of Nightmares, Keeper of the Royal Herat, Founder of the Mortuary Cult, Banisher of the Grand Hierophant, High Lord Admiral of the Deathfleets, Guardian of the Charnal Pass, Tamer of the Liche King, Unliving Jackal Lord, Dismisser of the Warrior Queen, Charioteer of the Gods, He Who Does Not Serve, Slayer off Reddittras, Scarab Purger, Favoured of Usirian, Player of the Great Game, Liberator of Life, Lord Sand, Wrangler of Scorpions, Emperor of the Dunes, Eternal Sovereign of Khemri's Legions, Seneschal of the Great Sandy Desert, Curserer of the Living, Regent of the Eastern Mountains, Warden of the Eternal Necropolis, Herald of all Heralds, Caller of the Bitter Wind, God-Tamer, Master of the Mortis River, Guardian of the Dead, Great Keeper of the Obelisks, Deacon of the Ash River, Belated of Wakers, General of the Mighty Frame, Summoner of Sandstorms, Master of all Necrotects, Prince of Dust, Tyrant of Araby, Purger of the Greenskin Breathers, Killer of the False God's Champions, Tyrant of the Gold Dunes, Golden Bone Lord, Avenger of the Dead, Carrion Master, Eternal Warden of Nehek's Lands, Breaker of Djaf's Bonds... that Settra?
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Honestly the thing that pisses me off about this is how unorganized it feels. There should be an order of prestige to the titles and the more informal ones should be less important and there should be some separation between pre- and post-unlife ones.
 
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DragonParadox said:
I mean is Setra wrong? One can certainly make the argument, but as far as I can see the notion that they are not dead hinges on our understanding of how Khalida's blessing works. His understanding on the other hand hinges on being Setra, with all the access to the Lore of the Covenant he made with all the Liche Priests who serve him. Personally I would hesitate to dismiss that he thinks of the matter out of hand.I am wagering his Piety and Learning skills with regards to the Gods are though the roof to put it in DL terms.
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When I hear someone saying « the gods have abandoned us », my first thought isn't « they're dead ». It's « they're angry with us ». So he could be right and the gods be alive.
 
Boney said:
The canonical fate of Elves is to get eaten by Slaanesh because that was imported from 40k with zero actual justification for it. My take is that that's incredibly stupid.
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Since my main source is the Wiki I don't always know which lore tidbit is from when. And Asuryan getting the "heaven" souls, Ereth Kial getting the "underworld" souls and Chaos getting the "took a wrong turn" souls while Morai-Heg functions more like the Moirai in Greek or the Norns in Norse mythology in that she ultimately decides who lives and dies (or at least knows it so well others think she decides it) seemed like an interesting take. It's also Quest canon that Sigmarites believe that the most "worthy" souls go directly to Sigmar (after passing through Morr's realm to sign off?), so I just thought to mention it when I found something similar for the Elves.

But making Morai-Heg and Morr more similar in their broad strokes and mechanical functions might be useful and important for the broader behind the scenes cosmological world-building.
deathofrats0808 said:
Here's the relevant quote:
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Oh wow. How well do the gods of Kislev map onto the Ellinilli? Temperamentally not so much I think, but when it comes to domains and elements I can see a few overlaps.
Codex said:
Nehekharan Gods aren't dead unless you're talking about End Times, where Nagash eats all of them. Nehekharan Priests still invoke Neru on one of their spells.

I don't think the Kurgan are worshipping Neru but the "Nehekharan Gods are dead" is such an irritating statement because I keep seeing it despite the fact that it's not even true.
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I thought they were dead in the way most Nehekharans are dead. I.e. still active, but crippled compared to what they used to be, with a lot of metaphysical traits switched to "death" flavored.
 
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