And being a mage-prince when/just after empire got a lot lot better because of archmage seems like it would weaken some of the arguments. Not to mention being our godson, which gives a lot of legitimacy to the dwarfs and potencial support of the single biggest company in the empire. Being a mage is the only thing that makes next a election into something more than formality.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
It's not actually publicly known that Mathild is Mandred's godmother, and it's in everyone's interests to keep it that way, given the god in question tying the two together is Ranald. That being known would kill Mandred's cause faster than just being a wizard would.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There's four notable libraries in Kislev that we know of under Boris' direct authority: Bokha Palace, Magnus Gardens of Praag, University of Kislev, The Writer's Rooms. To get books from all of those we'd need to spend one action on each to secure access, and then another action each to actually send over our army of scribes to copy them, for a total of eight actions. That's fully eight turns of Kislev book-copying, and that's not counting how we still need to arrange teachers of all the major languages of the Old World for our scribes.
It would be effectively saving us time, our most valuable resource.
Hell, depending on how we word it, it's very possible that we could ask the Witches for a curated section of their books as well. Boris has the capacity to give back to the Ice Witches the political power they lost in recent times, he can surely get at least some of their stuff as long as they don't betray holy secrets.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Huh, they showed a smidge of humility and came to trade.
Not sure on the personal- though I agree we should request payment of some kind, rather than leaving the debt for grim services rendered unpaid.
here?
This is a good point, Ulthuan cooperation is the unique opportunity here. It also should save a bunch of AP on the 'how do we connect to the main network' problem.
Not sure on the personal- though I agree we should request payment of some kind, rather than leaving the debt for grim services rendered unpaid.
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pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Counterpoint, WEB-MAT.
We have started the college of thaumaturgic studies that is supposed to cooperate, and in a way it is, through waystone project, and indeed if that had been the only achievement that could be wrestled of it the higher ups might have called it worthy institution indeed.But i dunno who we would cooperate with next to make it actually interdisciplinary in a way we initially envisioned. So i think we could ask for Ice Witch and Hag Witch correspondents for it. They would not be able to commute, less so because of distance (i imagine we could arrange gyrocopters) and more so because they just simply aren´t good at casting outside of Kislev, but its something.
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NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
Another reason to avoid choosing the Marienburg option, aside from the opportunity cost of bringing Ulthuan onboard, is that we don't actually want to isolate them too much, lest they feel backed into a corner and thus feel forced to resort to drastic measures.
We do not have the spare AP to spend on more mages, we would have to drop someone and I do not think that vote's going anywhere.
- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Is a wider-scale defence pact between the Empire and Kislev worth signing? The Empire has enemies or potential enemies on most of its borders. Extra deterrence against anyone feeling like starting a brushfire war (as Bretonnia have proven willing to do several times) or the incursion of a surprise Waaagh or necromancer rising or whatever would be likely appreciated in Altdorf.
On the other hand Kislev is pretty geographically isolated from most potential conflict points. And it's probably an incredibly hard sell for the Tzar to muster the Polks for a conflict outside of Kislev's own borders, when those forces are made up of men who can easily pick up sticks and ride away if they don't feel like dying for an Imperinyi war. And European history shows that even treaties of mutual defence with no allowance for wars of aggression can be extremely diplomatically alarming for other polities.
Yeah, kinda talked myself out of that idea. There's a big problem for Mathilde asking for political prizes in that she has to this point gotten as little involvement in politics as she can given her high station, so we don't know what to ask for.
On the other hand Kislev is pretty geographically isolated from most potential conflict points. And it's probably an incredibly hard sell for the Tzar to muster the Polks for a conflict outside of Kislev's own borders, when those forces are made up of men who can easily pick up sticks and ride away if they don't feel like dying for an Imperinyi war. And European history shows that even treaties of mutual defence with no allowance for wars of aggression can be extremely diplomatically alarming for other polities.
Yeah, kinda talked myself out of that idea. There's a big problem for Mathilde asking for political prizes in that she has to this point gotten as little involvement in politics as she can given her high station, so we don't know what to ask for.
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- Location
- Before the Ninth Gate
Honestly, I don't think that a mutual defense pact between the Empire and Kislev will go too badly. There's really only one other human country in the Old World, and Kislev's not near them at all. The real issue is that it's all upside for Kislev, and only a little upside for the Empire. Kislev has far more outside problems than the Empire does, frankly.
- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Hmm, how about:
[ ] BLOOD: Kislevite military aid in reclaiming the fallen Nexuses of the Forest of Shadows.
Getting access to and potentially reconnecting them to the network would be a spectacular coup for the Waystone Project, and would serve the Empire in reducing avenues of attack come the next Everchosen. As seen with the K8P and Dum expeditions, it's a lot easier to recruit help for a campaign once people believe there's already significant forces committed. We go to the northern Grafs with a signed commitment of troops from the Tzar, and it'll be significantly easier to pull in the rest of the help needed to clear and hold those hellholes.
If we were to plan that campaign from scratch we'd likely go to Boris at some point anyway, the Shirokij being just across the border. This is basically a guarantee of getting multiple boxcars on the recruitment roll.
[ ] BLOOD: Kislevite military aid in reclaiming the fallen Nexuses of the Forest of Shadows.
Getting access to and potentially reconnecting them to the network would be a spectacular coup for the Waystone Project, and would serve the Empire in reducing avenues of attack come the next Everchosen. As seen with the K8P and Dum expeditions, it's a lot easier to recruit help for a campaign once people believe there's already significant forces committed. We go to the northern Grafs with a signed commitment of troops from the Tzar, and it'll be significantly easier to pull in the rest of the help needed to clear and hold those hellholes.
If we were to plan that campaign from scratch we'd likely go to Boris at some point anyway, the Shirokij being just across the border. This is basically a guarantee of getting multiple boxcars on the recruitment roll.
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- Location
- Space
I don't suppose Cooperation and also the Cloak of Beards is on the table. Man, the Dwarves are not going to be having fun with this meeting.
On the Kislev mutual defense pact idea: The two big things Kislev is at all capable of sending armies to on a reasonable schedule are Sylvania and routine Norscan raiding. They might also be able to march south and help with orcish incursions from the southlands, but that's a long way, and Bretonnia's even farther. Other than that, it would be all navy work.
On the Kislev mutual defense pact idea: The two big things Kislev is at all capable of sending armies to on a reasonable schedule are Sylvania and routine Norscan raiding. They might also be able to march south and help with orcish incursions from the southlands, but that's a long way, and Bretonnia's even farther. Other than that, it would be all navy work.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
While this is better than marching a Kislev army across the border to, say, Blood Fane, its still imho better that we reclaim that with imperial forces. Better composition to actually fight in a forest instead of open plain. They managed fine in battle of shirokij, but those were different circumstances.
- Location
- Space
Actually, now that I think of it, a strictly naval defensive treaty could work? Free or discounted anchorage and repairs for Imperial Ships in Kislev whenever Marienburg is being a pain at the low, low cost of fighting Norscans like they were going to do anyway. The payment can be hidden in the form of relatively generous benefits for the empire explained as naivete.
- Location
- Utrecht
I think asking for books is actually the best idea.
Influence wise, it's cheap for Boris, and having a backup of kislev's libraries is in line with his stated policy.
Mathilde has also established a pattern of library raiding so people are less likely to dig too deeply into the motive behind the deal.
It's just Mathilde acting in character as Bookthilde.
Influence wise, it's cheap for Boris, and having a backup of kislev's libraries is in line with his stated policy.
Mathilde has also established a pattern of library raiding so people are less likely to dig too deeply into the motive behind the deal.
It's just Mathilde acting in character as Bookthilde.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Bonus points if we manage to convince Cython to join in on the project. We might actually be able to entice him with the whole "watch the Eonir incorporate a human god into their pantheon" bit, plus the whole "join in on the world's best magic experts try to solve and reverse-engineer some of the greatest works of magic in the world" bit.
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But my god, if we actually pull this off and attain the ability to recreate (or at least come up with methods that are comparable to) the Waystone construction and expansion of the network, we'll be able to tell the Emperor and King Belegar that we sought to try and collectively reverse-engineer the masterpiece of the Asur-Dawi Golden Age and succeeded.
...oh yeah, the Project will almost certainly visit Karak Eight Peaks to study such a huge Waystone Nexus at some point. It will be interesting--imagine convincing Belegar to approve the first visitation of an elf--or even an asur--to a Karak in 4000 years.
Eltharion: "You say that you slaughtered two greenskin tribes and crushed a Waaagh in the span of four years?"
Mathilde: "Indeed. Turned half a million of them into ashes in an instant. The Warboss survived but then ran into the resident Ice Dragon and is now a beautiful statue in the Council Room."
Eltharion, excited: "May I see it?"
Not sure I'd call Birdmuncha 'beautiful', that may be flattering him a bit.
I would like it if Kislev allowed the colleges of magic an expansion into their land. It's a win-win for everyone (except maybe the Ice Witches and hags, but that can be managed by perhaps limiting intake to male recruits). Kislev gets more magic users to fight chaos with, the Colleges become a proper international organization that is no longer as beholden to the Emperor and the Cult of Sigmars whims, the Empire gains cultural influence over Kislev because the college leadership is still in Altdorf right now and young male children with magic potential can stay and learn at home instead of being either killed, forced to dabble in dark and unformalized magic or exiled from Kislev.
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- Location
- Utrecht
The grey lords have a history with the dragons of the old world. Probably not Cython personally, given his location, but it's better not to tempt them.
Cython also is not that fond of elves/water folk.
Not everyone is a xenophile like Mathilde.
It is not a win/win since the colleges are a foreign institution sworn to the service of a foreign state. The Empire is not going to allow that to change since it would otherwise be giving all the secrets of their magical tradition to Kislev and we do not have a favor on them.
I don't think the Empire thinks about magical secrets in that way? I mean, otherwise they'd also be preventing their religious cults from expanding outside the Empire, those also hold magical secrets, and we know that those expand as they wish.
I feel like the amount of influence the Empire could gain over Kislev through the Expansion of the Colleges to Kislev could be tempting enough for the Statesmen of the Empire to acquiesce to the request.
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- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I don't know if the Colleges really can be an international institution. What does the head of the Kislev College do when the Imperial Grand Patriarch passes on an order they received from the Emperor.
- If they don't follow the order, they're not really the same institution, are they? And with Battle Magics being a national-level strategic asset, giving them away to a foreign institution is a complete political non-starter.
- If they do follow the order, then that's a massive problem for the Tzar in that the new magical organisation he burned all his goodwill to create is dancing to the tune of a foreign monarch.
Boook is book. It saves actions, especially if we ask for help copying. Could even leave it open-ended, so he helps to the extent he feels the debt is worth. We won't turn down the entire contents of Kislev's libraries showing up over the next few years, or just the rights to send scribes to copy it all.
On the other hand, putting in a formal agreement to send all male magic-users to the colleges might be nice...
Elves is tricky but not too bad. We need all parties satisfied they're getting their reward for effort spent, and that means either cooperation or payday. And everybody signed to be able to make working waystones, so cooperation should satisfy them.
I also think it's what Eltharion expects, and is prepared for.
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On the other hand, putting in a formal agreement to send all male magic-users to the colleges might be nice...
Elves is tricky but not too bad. We need all parties satisfied they're getting their reward for effort spent, and that means either cooperation or payday. And everybody signed to be able to make working waystones, so cooperation should satisfy them.
I also think it's what Eltharion expects, and is prepared for.
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The answer to that should stay ambiguous and depending on who can offer the head of the Kislev College the better deal. The idea of a straight and clear line of command is a very modern one. We're still in a feudal age. The idea that a vassal can have lands beholden to multiple lieges should not be strange to people or states. They are dealing with this sort of stuff daily.
The Colleges are a military resource, that is the point of them existing at all. If you hand them to Kislev then Kislev is also going to be able to use them, including against the Empire in case of war or say... assassination, not that anyone would use Grey Wizards to murder a head of state of course (
). Kislev and the Empire are not close at the moment, they have shared interests but the closest tie they have at the moment is the Waystone project after generations of neglect on the relationship.
Realpolitik
- Location
- Edmonton
- Pronouns
- He/Him
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