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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Mopman43 said:
That's canon? Neferata created her Elixir of Life based on Nagash's. And those that drank her Elixir became the bloodline founders.

No idea what you're talking about dragon blood though.
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Nagash doesn't need to drink human blood.
Abhorash stopped needing to drink human blood after he drank the heartblood out of a dragon.
Nagash probably wouldn't have had much trouble hunting down a dragon even before brewing his own elixir of life.

The logical assumption is that Nagash's books don't contain a recipe, but instead a description of basic principles to brew the elixir.
And that human blood can be used as a substitute for dragon blood, so long as you're willing to continually add more the longer you need the effects of the potion to run.
Which the Lahmians were obviously more willing to do than hunt down a dragon. That or they didn't have any access to papers describing the potion making characteristics of dragon blood, and instead just best-fit human blood as the ingredient with the closest characteristics to the ingredient described.
 
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My own form of thread madness, perhaps. Thinking about one of the upcoming Socials:
Boney said:
Attend the coronation of the new Tzar of Kislev.
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I wonder who else may be in attendance? Because-
Boney said:
Observe the fate of the Kalishiniviks, who have been made a scapegoat for the death of the Tzar.
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while we didn't pick this, Ljiljana volunteered to lead the investigation into the Kalishiniviks (Kalashiniviks?), following the battle in the Shirokij:
Boney said:
"The Resvynhaf Kalashiniviks managed to avoid the purges of Tzar Pavel, but perhaps that was a mistake. Perhaps they were meddling with something that drew the attention of the Forest Spirits. If you wish it, Tsarevich, the Ice Court could investigate them."
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She'll know what evidence the Ice Court found, and so is able to form a view on whether that, say, tracks with an assassination attempt.

So I then wonder, depending on what was found, might she have her suspicions that the Kalishiniviks are indeed just convenient scapegoats?
Not that I expect her to shed too many tears over the late Tzar, having expressed some... unsentimental thoughts regarding him before.
Boney said:
Play more rounds of games with the Tzar." She snorts and spits over the railing. "Needs to die already. Fights against threats, yha, but just keeps throne warm when there's nothing around for him to ride out and hit. Doesn't listen to Ice Witches, doesn't listen to courtiers, doesn't listen to diplomats, just listens to generals, who all grow fat and lazy. Young Boris born under good omens, respects the Gods properly, will be better Tzar."
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While we know she's impressed with our capabilities, or at least talks us up to the Ice Court.
Boney said:
"She says it is like if you hoped the Tzar would send an extra rota, and then three pulks and the Kreml Guard arrive. Do you know something that Kislev does not?"

Ljiljana must have really talked you up to her fellows.
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So given the above, ah, journey, I wouldn't be entirely surprised were Ljiljana to archly observe how our mutual good friend Boris, the new Tzar, is now in so much better a position to advance our latest meddling project in Kislev.
 
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Mopman43 said:
Tomb Guard specifically are basically the on tabletop same thing as Grave Guard (who are Wights). Including both having Killing Blow as a rule.
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True, although I'll note there are two differences in statline; TG have 3 higher BS and 2 higher Ld.

reignonyrparade said:
Tomb kings are complicated in that there are basically four distinct types of undead at work. They were already sticking the souls of dead warriors into giant constructs to animate them back in their heyday, and the liche priests are also a thing that was happening long before strict necromancy got involved (and also arguably aren't undead, they never actually died their bodies just slowly turned more and more Like That.) The tomb kings themselves and the vast swaths of skeletons are nominally the same sort of "standard" undead, just with vast differences in the preservation of the body. So even if Dhar Logisitics ARE a concern, that can be reduced by more heavily relying on war constructs than you otherwise might.

The fourth type of undead in Nekehara is Khalida, Specifically, by the mechanism of Animated By Asaph's Will, Specifically.
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I'd argue that Tomb Kings are probably not entirely the same as regular undead. Even ignoring the fact they have a separate rule as of 8th (Undead vs Nehekharan Undead) Tomb Kings aren't bound to the will of the one who awakens them in the same way regular undead are. That is to say, although they are reliant upon a mage to sustain them, they aren't slaves in the way a horde of zombies or skeletons are. They can think for themselves.

guyfromtheplace1 said:
Nagash doesn't need to drink human blood.
Abhorash stopped needing to drink human blood after he drank the heartblood out of dragon.
Nagash probably wouldn't have had much trouble hunting down a dragon even before brewing his own elixir of life.

The logical assumption is that Nagash's books don't contain a recipe, but instead a description of basic principles to brew the elixir.
And that human blood can be used as a substitute for dragon blood, so long as you're willing to continually add more the longer you need the effects of the potion to run.
Which the Lahmians were obviously more willing to do than hunt down a dragon. That or they didn't have any access to papers describing the potion making characteristics of dragon blood, and instead just best-fit human blood as the ingredient with the closest characteristics to the ingredient described.
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It's unclear as to why Abhorash stopped needing to drink blood after killing a dragon though. And at least one version of vampire lore says that Neferata improved upon Nagash's Elixir.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
I'd argue that Tomb Kings are probably not entirely the same as regular undead. Even ignoring the fact they have a separate rule as of 8th (Undead vs Nehekharan Undead) Tomb Kings aren't bound to the will of the one who awakens them in the same way regular undead are. That is to say, although they are reliant upon a mage to sustain them, they aren't slaves in the way a horde of zombies or skeletons are. They can think for themselves.
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They aren't bound to the will of the one who awakens them but they were SUPPOSED to be and were straight up raised by necromancy. We can quibble about whether they're truly the same as a horde of zombies but specifically when compared to the other categories in Nekehara, "was in fact raised by necromancy even if it ended up weird" counts as regular undead.

On another matter:
deathofrats0808 said:
It's unclear as to why Abhorash stopped needing to drink blood after killing a dragon though. And at least one version of vampire lore says that Neferata improved upon Nagash's Elixir.
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If you look at Nagash, as in literally look at his physical form, and look at your average vampire, and consider 99% if people who want immortality, it's hard to argue she DIDN'T.
 
reignonyrparade said:
They aren't bound to the will of the one who awakens them but they were SUPPOSED to be and were straight up raised by necromancy. We can quibble about whether they're truly the same as a horde of zombies but specifically when compared to the other categories in Nekehara, "was in fact raised by necromancy even if it ended up weird" counts as regular undead.

On another matter:

If you look at Nagash, as in literally look at his physical form, and look at your average vampire, and consider 99% if people who want immortality, it's hard to argue she DIDN'T.
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I mean, they were (apart from Settra) originally raised by Necromancy, but there's an argument to be made that they then un-resurrected and were re-raised by the Liche Priests separately from Nagash's ritual. Most of them are asleep ("he commanded that the Tomb Kings return to their eternal rest" TK 8th, pg16) and are then 'woken up' by the Liche Priests.

mean, that's entirely a fair point to make, I'm just saying that canon is, like on so many other things, inconsistent on this point.
 
Well, it makes sense.
That random skull had to come from someone, so inability to properly verify that you are allowed to have the skull is a strong indication that something inappropriate has happened.
 
There are very few ways to legitimately transfer ownership of a skull, because it's believed that they belong in a Garden of Morr with the rest of the body or they may not be able to properly pass on to the afterlife. The bones of Saints (or whatever the Warhammer term for them was) are okay to be used by other members of their faith, because their deeds mean that they earned a divine chauffeuring to the afterlife instead of needing the public transit system that Morr provides. Vampires aren't ever properly dead so keeping parts of them around isn't interfering with their ability to pass on, it's just preventing them from getting up to further trouble.

So if you've got a skull-based fashion accessory without a proper chain of custody for the skull then you're at best an accessory after the fact to desecration of a corpse.
 
Boney said:
There are very few ways to legitimately transfer ownership of a skull, because it's believed that they belong in a Garden of Morr with the rest of the body or they may not be able to properly pass on to the afterlife. The bones of Saints (or whatever the Warhammer term for them was) are okay to be used by other members of their faith, because their deeds mean that they earned a divine chauffeuring to the afterlife instead of needing the public transit system that Morr provides. Vampires aren't ever properly dead so keeping parts of them around isn't interfering with their ability to pass on, it's just preventing them from getting up to further trouble.

So if you've got a skull-based fashion accessory without a proper chain of custody for the skull then you're at best an accessory after the fact to desecration of a corpse.
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What about after the danger period has passed and it's safe to dig up an old skeleton to make room for new corpses in a space-limited Garden of Morr? Is it hard to take them out of the auto-cremation chain or something?
 
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Boney said:
There are very few ways to legitimately transfer ownership of a skull, because it's believed that they belong in a Garden of Morr with the rest of the body or they may not be able to properly pass on to the afterlife. The bones of Saints (or whatever the Warhammer term for them was) are okay to be used by other members of their faith, because their deeds mean that they earned a divine chauffeuring to the afterlife instead of needing the public transit system that Morr provides. Vampires aren't ever properly dead so keeping parts of them around isn't interfering with their ability to pass on, it's just preventing them from getting up to further trouble.

So if you've got a skull-based fashion accessory without a proper chain of custody for the skull then you're at best an accessory after the fact to desecration of a corpse.
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Wizard chic is fine, but if you're going to try Necromancer chic you'd better have proper provenance.
 
StormySky said:
What about after the danger period has passed and it's safe to dig up an old skeleton to make room for new corpses in a space-limited Garden of Morr?
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Then they go into an ossuary, where the bones of all of those that are properly resting in Morr's embrace reinforce the sanctity of the Garden. A Garden that's been a Garden for a long time has a lot of outbuildings and sublevels. Most Morrites consider cremation a blasphemy in most circumstances.
 
Boney said:
Saints (or whatever the Warhammer term for them was)
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WFRP 2e: Tome of Salvation, page 95
Although they go by many other titles, the most common moniker attached to these esteemed individuals is "Venerated Soul."
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WFRP 4e, pages 205 and 207
The cult also maintains many monasteries and abbeys on small isolated islands, most dedicated to one of Manann's many saints.
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Myrmidia's holy sites are also known for their scandalous depictions of the goddess and her saints, who are often presented wearing little more than scarves about their waists, which many Sigmarites find completely unacceptable.
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Page 217, in the god magic section (formally the Prayers section)
A small number of the faithful stand apart from their peers, seemingly able to appeal for their deity's direct intervention in the form of miracles. Those who perform such feats are known by many names in different parts of the Old World — including: Living Saints, Gods' Servants, The Hallowed, Divine Wills, Anointed Ones — but, in the Empire, they are most commonly referred to as 'Blessed', which is often used as a title. So, if Sister Anna where [sic] to be Blessed by Sigmar — i.e. granted Sigmar's grace, able to have her prayers answered — she would become 'Blessed Anna', or, in full, 'Blessed Anna, Sister of Sigmar'.
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I like it how a skull based clothing discussion is the one generating an author post alarm, and it's not even the weirdest I got from this thread. Never change :D
 
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