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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Glau said:
As in, I see Kislev as clearly superior in terms of need, existing infrastructure to link into, and support we'll get from the authorities?

Yes.

The only reason anyone seems to have for not doing Kislev is that there's unspecified people in the empire who might get their feathers ruffled, which is really not something we've ever really cared about before when it comes to practical matters.
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Well, we also like Roswita, and just this social turn we talked to the Eastern Stirland about how the project can help him.
 
Tasoli said:
That is nonsensical argument since from what I remember Boney has said that only way Ulthan can stop this at this point is either war or sending Teclis back to Empire for a couple of decades to make nice.

And Ulthan doesn't want a war.
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BurnNote said:
Nah. The magic still ends up with them. And the alternative is giving away the control codes, which if they cared about rivers so much, would be even worse as a no go.
Also, the Ice Witches already have their own little network section. That horse has well and truly left the stable.
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Allright, I think I am quite purist and wanna keep to the original design unless we don't find any other way.

Still, I think that our priorities lay with the other components now, and we should leave alternate leyline designs for later, when we know Ulthuan's role in this.
 
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I believe Boney has said Ulthuan would ens up sending Teclis back as a carrot offering for stopping waystone project. And that would be something even Matilda would consider a form of success. Even if waystone are probaly overall more important to world stability.

Of course, that QM comment was from around start of wayston project, i believe. If Empire would be as willing to stop at this point when we've started to develop actual waystone and knowledge that we are just one or two waystone away from continental ruin(and the gyur nexus), i don't think is aa likely.

Esepsically since every other nation is also seeing development, and is presumely don't want that to stop either at this point in time.
 
It's very surprising to see my plan take the lead (even marginally) upon waking up. As far as the current vote goes, I was starting to reassure myself that the Windfall Cabal was the right way to go (and I still prefer it over the Red Rider plan), but I would be remiss if I let the opportunity go for Codifying and Swords to retain the lead.

Shadow Wizard Sword Gang, rise up.

Derpmind said:
@Parabola There's been a bit of discussion on adding the KAU action to Eike's Actions this turn. Since your plan only has two Eike actions, would you consider this for your plan? Especially as Plan Codifying and Swords appears to be catching up.

Alternatively, unlike the leading plan that has six characters (incuding Mathilde) on the Tributary action, yours only has four. I believe an Eike Action would also fit here, as a non-research action that involves both seeing us use magic to help Eike+Mathilde's home province and also as an excuse to get our young apprentice within Baba Niedzwenka's range.
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Per Boney, as part of the abstraction (and, I imagine, to make his life easier) Eike learns better if she has less things to split her attention behind:

Boney said:
The less things she's given to do, the more time she has to divide between them. If she's told to do two or three things I'll give her better results at them than if she's told to do ten.
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So focusing on the two Branulhune actions and the EIC feels right to me - she has three ??? Martial skills on her character sheet and on the social action we took her on as Apprentice, she brought along a book on bounty-hunting memoirs, which to me speaks of a desire for adventure, if not necessarily bloodshed (given the Shallyan thing).

Also, at this point it'd be a bit disingenuous to change the actual vote's content, given how many people have voted for it. Even if Boney was fine with it I imagine many people would feel put off by it.

Tomcost said:
Gentlemen, how would you all think about a Swording compromise which had the Foundation instead of River Leylines?
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Part of the reason I put the River Leylines in my plan was to find the right action for everyone not on the Capstone or the Water Spirit tributary without it feeling forced. And the thing with the Foundation is that we probably want Hatalath on it - he's our most senior and experienced super-magic-researcher, and the Foundation is currently looking like the most difficult part of the whole research process. Tackling the components of the Waystones proper one at a time makes more sense to me (though hopefully it's not too easy and Hatalath just trivializes the Capstone like he did with the Runes).

I also really don't think Ulthuan would be willing to give us the passphrases unless we really twist their arm - they don't see humans as peers in any sense (Teclis' teaching of the Empire was considered controversial in the first place), they had a war with the dwarves that ended with their loss, and the Eonir are secessionists which include a number of people they exiled. We also don't know anything about Ulthuan diplomacy, and I imagine it consists of a lot of double-talk.

My hopes are that if we show them we already have a working leyline prototype or even a working waystone prototype, they would see less reason to withhold the passphrases, as it would mean we could already do one of the things they fear - cutting out a chunk of the network for ourselves. At that point, they have a different set of worries on hand, and they can't just dismiss us - they'd have to meet us in the middle.

Gavin Prince said:
My thought process on it is:

  • All else being equal, there's a mild preference for the first fruits to go to the Empire rather than a foreign polity
  • Kislev has greater need of immediate improvement
  • The tributaries in and of themselves are not immediately impactful
  • They are however useful in the long term, and we want to get them rolling out
  • Nobody is going to volunteer to be the first to do that, so the Project will have to push at least once
  • It may as well go where we already have some political swing, so the rollout's teething problems are limited to teaching rather than having to deal with an obstreperous local nobility on top.
So we roll out the tributaries in Stirland first, where we have multiple "ins" on the ground and where even the mild improvement of tributaries will make a difference. Then when we get something bigger, that can go to Kislev immediately, as we've already appeased the "Empire First" bloc with something quick and easy.
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There's also this:

Boney said:
If they had issues with the information being shared, they wouldn't be here. The results being shared with the Empire and others was a known condition of joining the Project, and once it's complete everyone who contributed to the Project will be taking home all of the information it acquired. As for compensation, so far nobody involved in the project has tried to argue that individual intellectual property rights are more important than the continued habitability of the continent. Zlata is here because the Ice Witches told her to be here and Niedzwenka is here because Boris made it worth her while, nobody's here because they thought they'd get royalties. Neither needs to hurry to get information home because it's very unlikely the current Tsar would prioritize building them.
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If Boris' dad doesn't understand how important this is and wouldn't start prioritizing it, then it's far less urgent, isn't it? Roswita on the other hand is far more likely to understand and give it a quick go-ahead.
 
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Derpmind said:
I think we'll see it spread on its own much faster after everyone has the example of Stirland's tributaries to point to.
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Yes this! It has been repeatedly reinforced that the Waystone project is as much political horse wrangling as it it research. For the tributaries we've gotten the research part down, now its the practicalities of getting them installed. This at it's most basic will involve large-ish groups of people wandering around doing magic things. The thread knows what Tributaries are and how important they can be, but to everyone who can't read Mathilde's mind she's asking them to take her at her word that 'these magic rituals are the good kind pinky promise and their effects a decade down the line are totally worth mobilizing people to make boring rocks*'--a boring rock is the best case scenario mind you.

Approaching someone who Mathilde has personal ties to, a location she has a firm history of results, and connections to the official head honcho would help a lot in surpassing the general trust and "isn't there something better we can do with our time?" barriers. Aka Stirland is a great place to start even without the whole "Empire First" since it's the most likely place where the leader would take Mathilde at her word and wrangle large groups of people to help make the world's most boring rocks. The other contender, Kislev, does have additional trust barriers in the fact that they are a foreign entity, the official leader is probably not interested (Boris the heir apparent can work around daddy dearest, but that will come with it's own costs), and has a cultural bias against male magic users. Yes Johann was okay, but I have a feeling someone who's obviously not gonna be messing with Ice Magic punching murderous trees in the face is much easier to accept than a dude (Askel) actively doing rituals that might or might not impact the Ice Magic network.


*Before people side-eye me for calling tributaries this, them being boring rocks is honestly a major part of their appeal. See the issues with the gold tributary trees.
 
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With apologies to Parabola - who has written a perfectly cromulent plan, which I won't shed any tears if it wins - I find the current lead of Codifying and Swords more than a little strange. Even setting aside my discomfort with the tactical voting currently taking place to secure that lead, Codifying and Swords makes very little sense as a compromise of the former top two plans, which differed by a single action. Codifying and Swords changes three actions (and a bunch of personnel on the two Waystone actions it does share with the other plans but whatever). If the actual issue is the Mapping/Apparition action (which I'm not sure is the case but I did see some apparition voters which had a problem with mapping specifically so maybe it is) wouldn't a more natural compromise be a plan that changes that action? With that in mind, is there some third WEB-MAT action that people are interested in seeing?

I doubt there's much hope for an entirely new plan to win at this point, and to be perfectly honest I don't know that there's a good candidate for a third WEB-MAT action instead of those two (maybe Marienburg nexus with Johann and Egrimm or something? I don't know if the whole pleasure Cult thing makes this a good or bad time to do this) but I figured I'll float the idea anyway.
 
I do think Nordland should be a priority for the Waystone Project, simply because they've lost a lot to the Elves so far, and their economic centre of gravity is shifting more eastwards towards the Forest of Shadows. If we show them that cooperation has benefits to them, we cool the inter-empire tensions that have emerged - we can't ignore imperial politics.

From talking to Boris, Kislev will get working on Waystones when they can. We can certainly kickstart the process, but I'd do Nordland before them.
 
More accurate to say that Teclis went to the store to get milk and then got bagged by the grocery employees so he could manage their grocery store.
 
Are we planning on waiting for the Calamity Room for the Liminal Realm research, or do the 'do it in a desert' option with the Gambler turn 42?
 
mathymancer said:
With apologies to Parabola - who has written a perfectly cromulent plan, which I won't shed any tears if it wins - I find the current lead of Codifying and Swords more than a little strange. Even setting aside my discomfort with the tactical voting currently taking place to secure that lead, Codifying and Swords makes very little sense as a compromise of the former top two plans, which differed by a single action. Codifying and Swords changes three actions (and a bunch of personnel on the two Waystone actions it does share with the other plans but whatever). If the actual issue is the Mapping/Apparition action (which I'm not sure is the case but I did see some apparition voters which had a problem with mapping specifically so maybe it is) wouldn't a more natural compromise be a plan that changes that action? With that in mind, is there some third WEB-MAT action that people are interested in seeing?
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It makes more sense from the perspective of the Apparition lobby, insofar as "getting Branarhune done now means Apparitions can be started next turn," as opposed to if Windfall won, which would make it very difficult for Apparitions to get a new swing at things until the turn after that. It doesn't matter what the WEB-MAT action that gets swapped out for Apparitions/Mapping is if it doesn't accelerate that goal. With a bunch of the thread (myself included) digging in their heels about not starting a multi-action self-improvement chain that requires timely follow-up until finishing the one we're already on, the real compromise is essentially "when does Apparition development begin". From that perspective, seeing the two Lore and Metal plans as "right now" vs "in two turns", the "in one turn" plan is the natural compromise.
 
nothingtoseehere said:
I do think Nordland should be a priority for the Waystone Project, simply because they've lost a lot to the Elves so far, and their economic centre of gravity is shifting more eastwards towards the Forest of Shadows. If we show them that cooperation has benefits to them, we cool the inter-empire tensions that have emerged - we can't ignore imperial politics.

From talking to Boris, Kislev will get working on Waystones when they can. We can certainly kickstart the process, but I'd do Nordland before them.
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I kind of hate the arguments about Nordland losing out because the Eonir had finally had enough.

If some store owner is scamming customers and he is then forced to stop, he doesn't deserve compensation for his loss in revenue.

If a school bully is made stop taking lunch money from other kids, he doesn't need compensation.

Maybe, just maybe nordland shouldn't have let its economy become dependent on exploiting land it agreed not to exploit.
 
Tomcost said:
Another argument against river leylines is that, if Ulthuan sees that halfway through the proyect we are developing means to build waystone outside their network, they are more likely to put a wrench in our efforts than if we complete the other steps and they see us making waystones in good faith
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We aren't even close to making a Waystone. We are making a tributary, which the ancient Belthani and Scythians and many, many groups managed to create by placing a stone in the right spot.

We aren't even at the point where we know if making a new Waystone is even possible with our resources.
 
Codex said:
We aren't even close to making a Waystone. We are making a tributary, which the ancient Belthani and Scythians and many, many groups managed to create by placing a stone in the right spot.

We aren't even at the point where we know if making a new Waystone is even possible with our resources.
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Rereading the post I replied to, I think I misread it. Tomcost was discussing the Leylines, rather than the tributaries. Still, my argument in regards to Waystones probably still stands. The Leylines thing is a research avenue rather than a concrete way that we know will end up with a Waystone.
 
NavySeel said:
I kind of hate the arguments about Nordland losing out because the Eonir had finally had enough.

If some store owner is scamming customers and he is then forced to stop, he doesn't deserve compensation for his loss in revenue.

If a school bully is made stop taking lunch money from other kids, he doesn't need compensation.

Maybe, just maybe nordland shouldn't have let its economy become dependent on exploiting land it agreed not to exploit.
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I view it from a bit more of a utilitarian perspective- the best way to avoid conflict is to give Nordland some kind of buy-in. Obviously they shouldn't be rewarded for encroaching on treaties, but leaving them to stew will only cause trouble in the long run.

(Obviously, it should be one that doesn't leave Laurelorn vulnerable in any fashion)
 
Codex said:
Rereading the post I replied to, I think I misread it. Tomcost was discussing the Leylines, rather than the tributaries. Still, my argument in regards to Waystones probably still stands. The Leylines thing is a research avenue rather than a concrete way that we know will end up with a Waystone.
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My argument is that coming up with a new leyline method which might be useful if Ulthuan doesn't give us the codephrases hangs in so many conditionals that we should leave it for when we have tried easier alternatives and have advanced more.

Also grumble grumble rivers might not work everywhere grumble
 
mathymancer said:
With apologies to Parabola - who has written a perfectly cromulent plan, which I won't shed any tears if it wins - I find the current lead of Codifying and Swords more than a little strange. Even setting aside my discomfort with the tactical voting currently taking place to secure that lead, Codifying and Swords makes very little sense as a compromise of the former top two plans, which differed by a single action. Codifying and Swords changes three actions (and a bunch of personnel on the two Waystone actions it does share with the other plans but whatever). If the actual issue is the Mapping/Apparition action (which I'm not sure is the case but I did see some apparition voters which had a problem with mapping specifically so maybe it is) wouldn't a more natural compromise be a plan that changes that action? With that in mind, is there some third WEB-MAT action that people are interested in seeing?

I doubt there's much hope for an entirely new plan to win at this point, and to be perfectly honest I don't know that there's a good candidate for a third WEB-MAT action instead of those two (maybe Marienburg nexus with Johann and Egrimm or something? I don't know if the whole pleasure Cult thing makes this a good or bad time to do this) but I figured I'll float the idea anyway.
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No offence is taken - personally, I find the shift a bit confusing too. Hell, I'm still approval voting the Windfall plan. I have no idea what's made people change their minds so much.

NavySeel said:
But will he bring the milk/cigarettes he said he was going to the store for?
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The milk was for his fragile bones, so he probably drank it already.
 
Sa'kage said:
More accurate to say that Teclis went to the store to get milk and then got bagged by the grocery employees so he could manage their grocery store.
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I like to imagine Teclis getting back and holding a meeting with the patriarchs/matriarchs of the colleges only for this short human woman with a massive sword on her back to kick down the door and walk in with some elaborate crate full of Morbs.
 
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