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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Tomcost said:
My argument is that coming up with a new leyline method which might be useful if Ulthuan doesn't give us the codephrases hangs in so many conditionals that we should leave it for when we have tried easier alternatives and have advanced more.

Also grumble grumble rivers might not work everywhere grumble
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Look at it this way- even if Leylines goes great, it still might be easier/require less resources to use Rivers where appropriate.

Like having 3 tributary rituals instead of 1, having more tools can only be useful.
 
Is the intent behind spending two actions on Branulhune that it will fully complete the sword style? I've wanted to do that for awhile

-[] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them. (Hand-switching)
-[] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them. (Double-tap)
 
Mopman43 said:
I view it from a bit more of a utilitarian perspective- the best way to avoid conflict is to give Nordland some kind of buy-in. Obviously they shouldn't be rewarded for encroaching on treaties, but leaving them to stew will only cause trouble in the long run.

(Obviously, it should be one that doesn't leave Laurelorn vulnerable in any fashion)
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Basically this. Nordland starting trouble is most likely to derail the project as a whole, or create complications we need to deal with. It's not like Tibutaries in the Forest Of Shadows aren't helping the peasants of the empire, we're not placating their leaders with resources that can otherwise help people - we're just choosing our priority list on more factors than humans helped.
 
Parabola said:
(though hopefully it's not too easy and Hatalath just trivializes the Capstone like he did with the Runes)
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from a certain perspective, getting the cooperation of the Grey Lords was one of the big draws of basing the project in Laurlorn, so seeing the benefits from that isn't an issue.
 
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:/

Moar sword is good if we go after the Iron Orcs next turn...
I just really hope we do Windfall next turn too.

[X] Plan Codifying and Swords

edit: i really like this plan's spread of researchers
 
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picklepikkl said:
It makes more sense from the perspective of the Apparition lobby, insofar as "getting Branarhune done now means Apparitions can be started next turn," as opposed to if Windfall won, which would make it very difficult for Apparitions to get a new swing at things until the turn after that. It doesn't matter what the WEB-MAT action that gets swapped out for Apparitions/Mapping is if it doesn't accelerate that goal. With a bunch of the thread (myself included) digging in their heels about not starting a multi-action self-improvement chain that requires timely follow-up until finishing the one we're already on, the real compromise is essentially "when does Apparition development begin". From that perspective, seeing the two Lore and Metal plans as "right now" vs "in two turns", the "in one turn" plan is the natural compromise.
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Ah, I suppose that does make sense, finishing Branarhune does clear a space on the future turn plan. But if the idea is that we'll use it to bind an apparition, then I fear it might end up tempting us to go for a WEB-MAT plan, which I have a hard time working into a non overwork plan. I hope the thread can live with a single WEB-MAT action.
 
nothingtoseehere said:
I do think Nordland should be a priority for the Waystone Project, simply because they've lost a lot to the Elves so far, and their economic centre of gravity is shifting more eastwards towards the Forest of Shadows. If we show them that cooperation has benefits to them, we cool the inter-empire tensions that have emerged - we can't ignore imperial politics.

From talking to Boris, Kislev will get working on Waystones when they can. We can certainly kickstart the process, but I'd do Nordland before them.
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Ehhhh I don't know if tributaries are provide enough easily verifiable and immediate benefit to work as a peace offering. And they definitely do nothing to directly address the economic issues, theoretically fewer beastmen born over the next decade doesn't count. Also the trust between Nordland and Laurelorn is completely non-existent. Everyone does have a zero-sum mindset where trade is not a potential moderating force that prevents conflict (that's I feel a much more 1900s-present mindset) but something that directly provides resources to an enemy you might be fighting soon.

Anything that seems like bribing Nordland to do what they're supposed to is going to be DOA in Laurelorn. Nordland doesn't really have anything to offer Laurelorn since Laurelorn has taken what they wanted (their forests back and free of tree cutting humans). Any suggestions of peace/additional concessions from Mathilde, the lady who's been living in Laurelorn for the past few years, given to Nordland are gonna be looked at with a fine toothed comb, if not outright rejected as coming from an obviously anti-Nordland source. Rapprochement shouldn't be impossible, but it's going to be much more involved than "Why don't we trade together and get rich together guys!" or general goody giving.

To reiterate, I think Mathilde is in the worst position to start talks since she can't afford to piss off her hosts too much--and they are very much in FUCK THE TREATY BREAKING ASSHOELS/'we have empirical evidence that we can't give them jack shit without them taking a mile' mode--and Nordland is not gonna trust the magic lady who's been cavorting with the assholes that burned down villages of innocents that were peacefully there for generations. Neither of these attitudes are fundamental forces of the universe, but definitely are something that'd take more than 1AP of trade deals or favor giving to surmount. Honestly, I think basing the project in like Kislev would've made it more possible for Mathilde to act as a mediator but it also means this whole thing woul've been off screen for the thread lol.
 
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Mopman43 said:
Look at it this way- even if Leylines goes great, it still might be easier/require less resources to use Rivers where appropriate.

Like having 3 tributary rituals instead of 1, having more tools can only be useful.
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If leylines go great, we say some bullshit in aneqoyan and waystones are connected.

I see a damned lot of effort to be put in any kind of new leyline type. All the tributaries cost us 1 AP. How many can this cost versus maybe having Ulthuan handing it to us later?

Right now, I feel like we are working backwards. We should try to build the waystone first, and then see how to connect it.
 
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NavySeel said:
I kind of hate the arguments about Nordland losing out because the Eonir had finally had enough.

If some store owner is scamming customers and he is then forced to stop, he doesn't deserve compensation for his loss in revenue.

If a school bully is made stop taking lunch money from other kids, he doesn't need compensation.

Maybe, just maybe nordland shouldn't have let its economy become dependent on exploiting land it agreed not to exploit.
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The issue from my side is that the punishment Nordland received included the killing over over 10000 citizens. This was controversial enough that the Winter wolves broke away and left to K8P (about as far from Laurelin as feasibly possible) and those who stayed decided that taking the out the Winter Wolves gave them was worth the political cost of the visible break.
Also much of the crimes were done by ancestors long dead due to the differing age spans.
I agree that Nordland needed to be kicked out, but I also see that the current Nordlanders have been delt a tough hand that they didn't themselves earn.
Personally I don't think we are obligated to help out Nordland. But I do think we shouldn't punish Nordland more, nor should we prevent Nordland from trying to recover. (So long as the recovery attempts are not an attempt to return to the situation of say 20 years ago)
 
Codex said:
My headcanon is that all Elves are lactose intolerant, and that Elves don't breastfeed. It is not supported by any evidence whatsoever. I made it up.
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...OH LOOK TIME FOR BASELESS RAMBLINGS TIME. Right so we have one source (Deathfang) that elves were created to act as dragon baby nannies right? Yay for opposable thumbs I suppose. So extrapolating from there, since they were bio-engineered with a non-mammalian species in mind, the elves themselves have fewer mammalian features. Eh we know they give live birth so eh.
 
CornyBones said:
Is the intent behind spending two actions on Branulhune that it will fully complete the sword style? I've wanted to do that for awhile
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Yeah. Currently we're at 3/4, but we rolled so badly on the third component of the style that we were given a "stretch goal", the double-tap, that would allow us to get most of the same benefit as the guard bypass. If it were a weaker component of the style like hand switching, I wouldn't care and would be fine just calling the style done at 4/4, but the guard bypass being shit is a big deal. The guard bypass was the trick we were all looking forward to of flickering Branulhune "through" an enemy's block and straight into them, and if we can't do that welll it weakens the style tremendously. So instead we can develop the "double tap" technique, using Branulhune to shatter the enemy's guard with the force of a cannon, dumping momentum, and then going for the kill, which seems 100% worth it to me.
mathymancer said:
Ah, I suppose that does make sense, finishing Branarhune does clear a space on the future turn plan. But if the idea is that we'll use it to bind an apparition, then I fear it might end up tempting us to go for a WEB-MAT plan, which I have a hard time working into a non overwork plan. I hope the thread can live with a single WEB-MAT action.
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I agree that what I foresee happening next turn if Parabola's plan wins is a fight between a WEB-MAT plan without Iron Orcs/the Father and a non-WEB-MAT plan with those things. But, like, that's also true if Windfall wins, because the Apparitions partisans are going to want to do it again. We'll see how it goes.

(We could always cut another Waystone action next turn to make room for our real priorities :V)
 
NavySeel said:
Is there in this fantasy/medieval setting... Wait is this why he isn't back yet? He's searching for milk he is capable of drinking.

He may even be having to resort to trying to invent it himself.
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Apparently, Baghdad was the origin of Almond Milk in writing:

"A similar story follows almond milk, which was first mentioned in a Baghdadi cookbook in the 13th century and was a common ingredient in Egyptian cooking by the 14th century."
 
Tomcost said:
Yes! And that's why, when a side who know how this works hasn't entered the negotiation table first, we wait and focus on tje rest of the components.

I will vote for rivers if we need to... but we don't need to yet.
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I'm going to be honest, I don't see any scenario where Ulthuan hands over the secrets behind Waystones.
 
Personally i do not like the river Leyline action Because i fear what that amount of magic in a river can do.
Remember the vitae river in nehekara? Remember how that's now a river of the dead?
Tbf that was nagash and he can do some crazy things. But what about small scale trouble, or what happens when the magic interacts with father reik. The river Leyline would probably still work with the same principle as the normal one which means a Dhar matrix running through empire and Kislev rivers...
 
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Glau said:
As in, I see Kislev as clearly superior in terms of need, existing infrastructure to link into, and support we'll get from the authorities?

Yes.

The only reason anyone seems to have for not doing Kislev is that there's unspecified people in the empire who might get their feathers ruffled, which is really not something we've ever really cared about before when it comes to practical matters.
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Ice witches and hags don't need our help to get started on tributaries though. They both have members on the project that could relay the rituals and have their own ressources and spellcasters to start building tributaries on their own.

Stirland on the other hand doesn't have access to the rituals yet.
 
Tobtorp said:
Personally i do not like the river Leyline action Because i fear what that amount of magic in a river can do.
Remember the vitae river in nehekara? Remember how that's now a driver of the dead?
Tbf that was nagash and he can do some crazy things. But what about small scale trouble, or what happens when the magic interacts with father reik. The river Leyline would probably still work with the same principle as the normal one which means a Dhar matrix running through empire and Kislev rivers...
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Thing is, you can do the exact same thing with regular leylines. Look at the Forest of Shadows. You can turn any Leyline into a lodestone of Dhar. The reason the River Vitae screwed over Nehekhara so hard is because it fed the entire nation and was their primary leyline, and also because Nagash performed a deadly ritual that would have plunged almost any civilisation into ruin if it culminated, which it did.

There is no future where we can create an incorruptible Leyline. There will always be a faultline. We can try to minimise it, but being scared of even attempting something because of a possible future doesn't sit right with me.

We can discuss the downsides once we've properly researched the option. Until then, I'm not using Nehekhara as an example of the leyline's worst case.
 
Mopman43 said:
I'm going to be honest, I don't see any scenario where Ulthuan hands over the secrets behind Waystones.
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If we manage to build functioning waystones, we risk making an alternative network like Kislev. That makes they release the codes.

It is a net win for them and for us. They get more waystones, and we don't need to reasearch leylines from scratch.
 
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