Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Is the current head to head race just between people who want to finally do Apparition stuff vs people who find it too risky without Gambler or are there more arguments for or against either action circulating?

There's very rarely only one argument dividing a vote in a thread this big- especially when its three closely competing options.

This one especially has a good dozen different stated reasons for why people are voting the way they're voting.
 
Is the current head to head race just between people who want to finally do Apparition stuff vs people who find it too risky without Gambler or are there more arguments for or against either action circulating?
The main argument against Red Rider Edition isn't the risk factor, actually. It's the fact that Boney told us this:
Boney, do we have an idea if we do the capturing an apparition action but don't make the bindings for it next turn, how safe is it to leave it between actions? Is there an established containment method we can feel secure in, or is it less certain it will be safe to leave it?
Any given containment method only works for a combination of a type of Apparition and a specific Wind. Mathilde will have to invent a new containment method for anything she catches, and how long a shelf life those methods might have can't be known in advance.
In other words, if we successfully catch a Red Rider, at some uncertain point in the near future we will need to spend another action to bind it. We don't know how soon. There are a lot of reasons people might or might not oppose this plan, but empirically speaking, this WoB swung the vote dramatically -- Red Rider edition went from being quite a bit ahead to being neck-and-neck and often behind. It's one thing to start the Apparition action chain -- it's another thing to commit us to a second action in the Apparition action chain before our primary current self-improvement project is complete. Personally, I went from being "eh, I'd prefer to wait for Gambler, but whatever" to "actively opposed to Red Rider Edition" as a result of that WoB.

This is one reason why Codifying and Swords has caught up so much -- it's viewed as a compromise option because it finishes off Branarhune this turn, for good, freeing us up to start Apparitions as soon as next turn, as well as doing three very solid Waystone actions.

Personally, I'd be willing to drop my approval votes for Windfall Edition if people on the Red Riders side approval voting Codifying and Swords are willing to do the same, for the sake of that compromise. I've currently got two people namevoting me, so my vote has the power of three.
 
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Is the current head to head race just between people who want to finally do Apparition stuff vs people who find it too risky without Gambler or are there more arguments for or against either action circulating?
I mean, there is at least one voter who is very unconfortable with the thought of stapling another possibly-sentient being to someones' soul and would be happy to take the action... never.
 
their entire culture is based around being the antithesis of civilization but the very act of having a culture is something that only civilizations have.

And one of these days, someone is going to unpack all of the baggage "civilization" as used by a 1980s brit has, look a bit closer at the inside/outside ("what else can you expect from uncivilized brutes?") distinctions and the Empire's insistence that they cannot be anything more than dumb animals, and write a really interesting beastmen PoV story. But it seems that we're a ways away from that still..

mathymancer said:
To give a confirmed in-quest example, Halétha is localized to the Forest of Shadows and some territories around it...except not really, because She is worshipped in Kislev as Kalita, who would appear to be an entirely different God to someone who doesn't know any better.

Is that known or assumed? After Isha/Rhya, I'm less willing to assume two gods are the same person just because they seem like the same sort of god.

Probably not, the living things in a city aren't connected via roots and are also very different. A Forrest soul is just that, a soul of a bunch of trees.

Forests would use ghyran and ghur, but we've been told that cities are places of ulgu and hysh. I'm betting the Altdorf liminal realm was appropriated by Teclis, not created.

Stirland is first because it's an easy first target for demonstrating the value of the project and the network. It suffers from relatively high ambient Dhar and so stands to benefit, the local ruler is a personal friend and so would probably have no problem signing off on it, and there's a local group who might have insight into water spirits that we have an in with (the Council of Manhorak).

And it has NO WAYSTONES IN IT.

At best we are going to nibble around the edges a bit and have to do the whole thing again when we've got leylines and actual Waystones.

Until then it seems like begging for a frustrating setback.

This is one reason why Codifying and Swords has caught up so much -- it's viewed as a compromise option because it finishes off Branarhune this turn, for good, freeing us up to start Apparitions as soon as next turn, as well as doing three very solid Waystone actions.

I don't know why people keep assuming we are going to do apparitions after this turn if we don't do it now. Personally, I'm voting for it because it's an actually meaningful thing to do with Johann. But next turn, I'm going to be voting for elfcation, actually building the RoW towers, taming arcane marks, and probably any other short adventures before apparitions.

You may want to treat this as a bit more of a fleeing opportunity than an indicator of thread preferences.
 
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And it has NO WAYSTONES IN IT.
Stirland has Waystones in it (look at the mapping action we took on T39; we followed the path of Waystones through Stirland and into the Moot). Sylvania (sorry, "Eastern Stirland") doesn't, but Stirland by itself is quite a large enough province with quite enough problems that would be aided by having more tributaries.
 
Well, I seem to have misread that the entire time, I guess because I thought we'd roll out tributaries where they are useful first. Not any happier with it, given Kislev is right there.
 
Personally, I'd be willing to drop my approval votes for Windfall Edition if people on the Red Riders side approval voting Codifying and Swords are willing to do the same, for the sake of that compromise. I've currently got two people namevoting me, so my vote has the power of three.
I'd be willing to drop to just swords if it gets close enough, yeah. The river action sounds really interesting and finally finishing swords would be such a relief.
 
You can think of Stirland as the ultimate stress test. If tributaries work there, they'll work anywhere. If they don't work there, that's important data and we need to go back to the drawing board to figure out why that might be and how we'll work around it.
 
Count me in as another person willing to drop my approval vote for Windfall in favor of a Swords compromise if a Red Rider voter is willing to do the same
 
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Well, I seem to have misread that the entire time, I guess because I thought we'd roll out tributaries where they are useful first. Not any happier with it, given Kislev is right there.
Aside from Sylvania, which has no Waystones, Stirland is the Imperial province tributaries would help the most. The uninterred dead regularly get up and wander around in Stirland, they just do it more in Sylvania.

Going to Kislev before doing anything for the Empire is likely to raise some political eyebrows we don't want raised, apparently. It'll probably be the second place we do.
 
What are we stress testing? That the tributaries work? That we can create multiple tributaries?

Again, why Stirland and not Kislev?

Political eyebrows being raised seems like a thing we can safely ignore.
 
I'd be willing to drop to just swords if it gets close enough, yeah. The river action sounds really interesting and finally finishing swords would be such a relief.
Counting the one rogue Codifying and Swords vote in the tally, it's currently only 5 votes being the lead.

Also, as a Windfall approval voter, I'm also willing to drop it too, with the promise that we'll do capturng a Rider in Red next turn.
 
Personally, I'd be willing to drop my approval votes for Windfall Edition
And risk the wrath of the Windfall Cabal?
Is that known or assumed? After Isha/Rhya, I'm less willing to assume two gods are the same person just because they seem like the same sort of god.
Kalita and Halétha don't seem like the same sort of God. We think they're the same because Aksel told us so, and I trust that he knows what he's talking about.
Well, I seem to have misread that the entire time, I guess because I thought we'd roll out tributaries where they are useful first. Not any happier with it, given Kislev is right there.
In addition to what's been said about giving the benefits to the Empire first, note that we can give Kislev the knowledge to make tributaries of their own but then it will be up to the local authorities to actually get to work, and Kislev is currently ruled by a moron Tzar that has other focuses. Stirland is sort of an auto-win because of course Rosie is going to agree, and it might be easier to convince other rulers that our magic stones make cursed places less cursed if the ruler of that province with the zombies signed on to the plan.
 
Personally, I'd be willing to drop my approval votes for Windfall Edition if people on the Red Riders side approval voting Codifying and Swords are willing to do the same, for the sake of that compromise. I've currently got two people namevoting me, so my vote has the power of three.

I'd be willing to drop to just swords if it gets close enough, yeah. The river action sounds really interesting and finally finishing swords would be such a relief.

Count me in as another person willing to drop my approval vote for Windfall in favor of a Swords compromise if a Red Rider voter is willing to do the same

Counting the one rogue Codifying and Swords vote in the tally, it's currently only 5 votes being the lead.

Also, as a Windfall approval voter, I'm also willing to drop it too, with the promise that we'll do capturng a Rider in Red next turn.
You know what I did say I would vote for any plan that had apparation binding because I deeply want to do it. But it looks like it is going to lose to an Estalian Mapping option which is just disgraceful. More than that if it is what it takes for people to commit when it is its time so be it. This is me taking that deal with the hopes that Apparation binding will happen in the future.

[X] Plan Codifying and Swords

I hope the rest of the Apparation Binding lobby can forgive me.
 
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Since a lot of people seem willing to drop their vote but nobody actually has done so I'll just do it, in the hopes that I'm wrong and we'll actually find the time for apparitions in the next few turns.
[X] Plan Codifying and Swords
Edit: Tasoli was faster.
 
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Aside from Sylvania, which has no Waystones, Stirland is the Imperial province tributaries would help the most.
Ostland would probably be next (mostly Forest of Shadows) though then there's the question of how many Waystones are left in the FoS (probably need to confront Melkhior at some point…)
 
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What are we stress testing? That the tributaries work? That we can create multiple tributaries?

Again, why Stirland and not Kislev?

Political eyebrows being raised seems like a thing we can safely ignore.
I think doing #2 and then #1 instead of the other way around to avoid political scrutiny is a good idea, actually. It's not like we don't want Stirland done, or that we aren't going to do Kislev.
 
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