Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Deathbybunnies]

You make a good point. I guess between the two of them, I expect Thorek to be more useful for the Capstone because of metalsmith contacts? We know runecraft requires magically potent metal for the most powerful runes (gromril, obviously), so this seems up his alley.

Though they were both on the Runes action this past turn and nothing seemed to go wrong there, so.

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I agree that we should probably put the smith on the metalsmithing, at least to start with.

It's true that nothing blew up in the Runes action, but that turned out to be a pretty minor action. And yet... Thorek said almost nothing, despite having previously said that part of the Dawi contribution was using Runesmithing techniques to enhance the effects of the runes. Now I'm not expecting him to share those secrets outright, but he didn't even mention their existence this time, or anything beyond what the runes might mean in Khazalid. About Runes.

Meanwhile, Hatalath was the MVP of that action, no questions asked. But he didn't actually reveal any previously-known secrets, he instead went off and performed novel experimentation, which isn't quite the same thing.

I rather suspect that Boney doesn't have a set list of actions required for each part of this project, but instead has a list of problems or unknowns needed to be solved or worked around, with follow-up actions dependent on what's been figured out already.

But maybe the initial actions for both should include both of them, only splitting them up for follow-up questions? I don't know. I'm just cognizant of the fact that we were told this was going to be a problem, and that cutting down on extraneous members for each action would see better results. Maybe they've just been rolling like champs in the background to be mature professionals and work together well, but I'm nervous.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

You make a good point. I guess between the two of them, I expect Thorek to be more useful for the Capstone because of metalsmith contacts? We know runecraft requires magically potent metal for the most powerful runes (gromril, obviously), so this seems up his alley.

Though they were both on the Runes action this past turn and nothing seemed to go wrong there, so.

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I don't think it really matters how good/bad a combo they are, we need the best elf mage and best(only) Dwarf runesmith working together

we just have to accept that we are always going to be on 'put out fires after' alet, and hope it's not needed.

 

[Imugi]

I'd like to include Kadoh into Mathilde's create Branarhune action. Kadoh has been alive for a very long time and has been Champion for a not-as-long long time. Also Johann could be included by a WEB-MAT action of "Train martial with Kadoh."

 

[mathymancer]

On the other hand... we've been told that Thorek and Hataleth is a potentially problematic combination, one being a Runelord amongst elgi and the other having been alive during the War of Vengeance. Even if they're both mature enough not to get in a fight over it, there's a solid chance that they aren't going to reveal as much whilst the other is present. Hataleth seems like the obvious exanple, actively shutting down his junior in front of us, but I've actually noticed that Thorek has definitely seemed even more taciturn than might be expected in previous actions.

If we're expecting these to take multiple actions each, we might well be better off splitting the two up and swapping members between teams.

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Hatalath and Thorek seemed to work fine so far, and Hatalath was very useful on the Runes. There's some specific stuff that we should be careful on (the dwarf and elf network, the Bugman's nexus) but otherwise I think we should try and work with both of them if we think they can both contribute. Specifically for the initial research actions of the Waystone components I feel like we want everyone at the table, and then at follow-ups we can think about maybe working with only some of them.

I'm tempted to go for a 3-personal 3-waystones plan, not taking Web-Mat this turn - we could put all our boys on the Capstone.

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Why? I get wanting to finish Branarhune and/or Eonir diplomacy, but is there a reason to squeeze it into one turn at the cost of the bonus WEB-MAT AP? I think we should aim for WEB-MAT when possible, and this is an overwork turn where I feel like there isn't anything particularly urgent that requires our personal action, we can definitely manage WEB-MAT.

Regarding the Waystone action thing - yeah, maybe. Still worth planning for what we know so far, I think.

Do we have reason to prefer one of the Wards over the others? I know @Codex is into the Ward of Storm (because there's a cool witch, if I remember correctly?) but I am not sure if we have any stronger reason than "because we expect some cool people to be in one of them."

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Rain: We talked to their Warden, seems like a decent guy. Middenland seems to be working with those guys (Prince Galenstra seems to have flipped to the pro-contact side because Boris personally convinced him and also they border Middenland) so maybe we want to figure out more about them to better understand that relationship. On the other hand maybe we don't want to get into the Graf's business. Also House Fanpatar are Cityborn, and the action isn't "hang out with House Fanpatar", it's "explore the Ward of Rain", which is mostly a swamp.

Frost: Cadaeth's home. This is the one with the elf-spirit hybrids, and maybe we're interested in it for that reason. It also borders Nordland, and if we want to understand the Eonir's feelings towards the Nordlanders the Ward that would've been the front line of a war with Nordland might be the place to look.

Storm: The only Ward we know no one from. Their Warden is big on diplomacy: with the Empire, the Druchii, the Norscans...that's something worth looking into we want to conduct diplomacy with the Eonir. It's also very notable because it's the only Ward that has been ruled by Forestborn for a while; the Ward of Frost also has Forestborn Wardens, but only because their Cityborn Warden died fairly recently. Having looked at the Cityborn society of Tor Lithanel I think it would be worthwhile to look into a Forestborn society that has been ruled by a Forestborn. On top of everything above, it also probably has a Waystone nexus (the tower of Se-Athil) and it's in a very interesting geographic position, bordering Marienburg's land to the west, Middenland to the south, and the ocean to the north. I think that this would be my pick.

 

[The Phoenixian]

I'm leaning towards the Asur explorer, particularly if we are doing Windherding with Egrimm (spread out the love a bit). It'd also make a great Eike tag-along, she can practice her Eltharin and make herself useful. It's not a definite lock, though; the shrine may be worth more as a paper and the weapons will at least be practically useful, and Eike can find something valuable in any of those activities.

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When it comes to the Asur writings and Eike, I feel like it's a good chance for a Xeno-affinity mulligan. Since not only is it a look into the Asur explorer and the Lizardmen both, but it's also a look into the mind and perspective of an Asur who specifically set out to contact another culture and peacefully learn about them and who seems to have done pretty well in that. Which seems like a pretty Xeno-affinity-ish thing to do itself.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I don't think it really matters how good/bad a combo they are, we need the best elf mage and best(only) Dwarf runesmith working together

we just have to accept that we are always going to be on 'put out fires after' alet, and hope it's not needed.

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My point is that we might not see any fires, the problem might show itself in the two of them quietly holding back important information in front of each other.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

I'm going to once again try to push the idea that we don't need Thorek on the capstone action. Thorek knows a lot about dwarven metal—iron and steel and gromril. I'm not sure he'll actually know a lot about the capstone, which is presumably an Elven alloy (the elves must have been using it before they met the dwarves).

Here's what we know about it so far:

1) it's an alloy
-1a) presumably made of commonly available metals, simply because of how widespread it is.
2) its magically attuned
-2a) several metals are, such as silver and gold, which the Eonir were using for their waytrees.
-2b) which suggests that they don't or can't make it themselves, or else they would have been using Waystone gold instead.
3) humans have nearly a dozen different names for it. We don't know the elven or dwarven name for it.
-3a) This suggests a universal importance in human cultures, but it's been ignored or forgotten in other cultures.
4) humans have been trying to extract gold from it for centuries, if not thousands of years.
-4a) Most of this research has been collected by the Gold Order.

I'm honestly convinced that the answer for this is going to come from Imperial contributions, not from the elder races, and as such we should use a WEB-MAT action instead of a personal/Waystone action to investigate it.

 

[Parabola]

Oh, I forgot about the Totally Not A Portal To The Aether that we smugged at Hatalath about. Yeah, that's worth investigating at some point if that's on offer.

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I can't get over how Hatalath thought it was secret when it was one of the first things we were told when first coming into Laurelorn. We didn't even ask and it was just sort of volunteered.

It's true that nothing blew up in the Runes action, but that turned out to be a pretty minor action. And yet... Thorek said almost nothing, despite having previously said that part of the Dawi contribution was using Runesmithing techniques to enhance the effects of the runes. Now I'm not expecting him to share those secrets outright, but he didn't even mention their existence this time, or anything beyond what the runes might mean in Khazalid. About Runes.

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I hope that the exact method of what Runesmiths did for that is like... attracting the winds more with what Hatalath figured out, rather than withholding any actual insight for the Runes.

Why? I get wanting to finish Branarhune and/or Eonir diplomacy, but is there a reason to squeeze it into one turn at the cost of the bonus WEB-MAT AP? I think we should aim for WEB-MAT when possible, and this is an overwork turn where I feel like there isn't anything particularly urgent that requires our personal action, we can definitely manage WEB-MAT.

Regarding the Waystone action thing - yeah, maybe. Still worth planning for what we know so far, I think.

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I consider it a trade-off more than anything. If we take Web-mat in non-overwork turns, that amounts to one personal action a turn, and so personal projects go rather slowly.

But I'd absolutely still go for your plan if mine didn't get a lead, as in this turn.

 

[Alratan]

Tbh I think that without Arkhan and Nagash keeping Settra from leaving Khemri for any significant length of time he would have beaten all the other Tomb Kings into line and made an attempt at conquering the world by now.

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He did beat them all into line, and ordered them all to go back to sleep. They're only allowed to wake up when he allows it, with standing permission for them to do so if anyone steals any of their grave goods. Not all of them always follow his rules, but on the whole they do.

Settra himself sleeps most of the time because he's properly pissed off that he was woken up as a decaying corpse, and not in the perfected living body he was promised. The Mortuary Cult has been frantically trying to work out how to do that for a couple of thousand years.

 

[picklepikkl]

Oh jesus the feeling of coming back to the thread and seeing notifications that six people have quoted you. What did I do?

I'd like to include Kadoh into Mathilde's create Branarhune action. Kadoh has been alive for a very long time and has been Champion for a not-as-long long time. Also Johann could be included by a WEB-MAT action of "Train martial with Kadoh."

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This has come up before:

Speaking of Branarhune, is there someone we want to mentor us?
I was thinking that we could ask Kadoh.

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Mathilde theoretically can get help with developing individual aspects of Branarhune it when that individual aspect can incorporate already-existing elements from elsewhere, but in that case it's something that she'll do automatically and there's no need for the thread to try to micromanage. What she can't get is someone to work alongside her in developing the entire style, because the base of it is half Greatsword and half Gazul Templar and she is literally the only person in the world who has that combination of styles, because it depends on a combination of runes that literally no other sword but hers has, and because you can't safely spar with Branulhune without deactivating the Runes Mathilde's style is trying to take advantage of.

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So no WEB-MAT action efficiency on Branarhune, sadly.

I consider it a trade-off more than anything. If we take Web-mat in non-overwork turns, that amounts to one personal action a turn, and so personal projects go rather slowly.

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I agree with this analysis, which is why I want to try to maximize the use of WEB-MAT during Overwork turns, since I suspect that to satisfy all the priorities of the thread we will end up doing less WEB-MAT during non-Overwork turns unless one of our major priorities can be satisfied with a WEB-MAT action. This past turn, for instance, we wouldn't have used WEB-MAT without the ability to do a Lovely Laurelorn action with Johann; the fact that we could made it worth it where it otherwise wouldn't. But T41, for example, I expect to be something like 3 Waystone actions/5th Branarhune action/some kind of research, because our largest self-improvement and research priorities can't be satisfied via WEB-MAT.

 

[pucflek]

Yeah, that's worth investigating at some point if that's on offer.

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Its probably not. It appears to be touchy and unlike elves we are not bound to the forest, so the potential backlash could be of uh... final variety.

 

[Mopman43]

There's a story of two living humans infiltrating a pyramid and being caught by the Tomb Guard and brought before their king.

One was only interested in treasure and was killed, the other begged that his wife was sick and he was desperately searching for a cure. The Tomb King said something along the lines of "I knew love once" and gave him what help he could.

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Found the source if anyone is curious.

2nd edition RP, Old World Bestiary page 67:

The first day, I found no trace of the wisdom I sought, nor could I decipher the location of the Library of Horeptis. On the second day, I awoke to the prodding of a bronze headed spear, clutched in the hand of an armoured skeletal warrior. I've have seen such sights in my days that I'm all but jaded to terror, but being awoken by one of the undead surely took another year or two off my life. A group of similarly armed skeletons allowed me to dress, then forcibly lead me to a gilded courtyard. At the centre of the square stood a massive marble throne, upon which sat a magnificently arrayed being, resplendent in jewels and rune inscribed bandages. His eyeless gaze bore into me as I stood before him and I bowed as I would to a king. Next to him stood a withered looking man in priestly vestments, Razim sat on the ground before him, gold and jewels lying clustered at his feet.

The mummy nodded at the priest who looked at me and then spoke, to my astonishment, in Reikspiel. 'His Radiance Sutekh, Guardian of the Waters of Life, Prince of the Shifting Sands wishes to know why you have come so far to loot his possessions.' I looked at Razim and saw my doom in his actions if I was not very clever. But kings are kings, undead or otherwise and I knew what to say. 'I came not for mighty Sutekh's gold but for his world renowned wisdom, for Bel Aliad is a city of healing and I am in desperate need of a healer.' And so, I told the undead pharaoh of my woes, of my love Karelia's poisoning at the hands of Heinrich von Bruno and my desperate quest. The priest quietly translated all to the unmoving mummy.

When I finished the courtyard was still for the span of three heartbeats. Sutekh gestured and Razim's head was struck off his shoulders. He spoke and then, amazingly he smiled, nodding to me once before he rose and departed, his armoured guard smoothly withdrawing to surround him. The priest walked to me and said, 'My lord commands me to tell you that he too, loved once. He too, would've gone to the ends of the world to save his love. I am to show you the wisdom you seek.' If not for Razim's greed, I would never have found the hidden place that the wizened priest took me to and my Karelia would've been lost to me forever. Strange are the turnings of the world." – Metrious Null from The Quest for My Heart

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[Parabola]

I agree with this analysis, which is why I want to try to maximize the use of WEB-MAT during Overwork turns, since I suspect that to satisfy all the priorities of the thread we will end up doing less WEB-MAT during non-Overwork turns unless one of our major priorities can be satisfied with a WEB-MAT action. This past turn, for instance, we wouldn't have used WEB-MAT without the ability to do a Lovely Laurelorn action with Johann; the fact that we could made it worth it where it otherwise wouldn't. But T41, for example, I expect to be something like 3 Waystone actions/5th Branarhune action/some kind of research, because our largest self-improvement and research priorities can't be satisfied via WEB-MAT.

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...So you agree with my logic but are using it to argue against the exact opposite conclusion? Well, I can't really blame you for that.

 

[dinomannitro6]

Mostly agree with your takes, except I think that as an ehnchanting related activity I think the man for the weapons study is our resident enchanter Egrimm.

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I can't remember, is WEBMAT collaboration actions limited to just one other member?

 

[StormySky]

I can't remember, is WEBMAT collaboration actions limited to just one other member?

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I think it can involve multiple people, but it only counts as WEB-MAT if all of them are members.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

I can't remember, is WEBMAT collaboration actions limited to just one other member?

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No, WEB-MAT actions can include multiple people, with the only restriction being that they must all be employees of WEB-MAT.

 

[picklepikkl]

I can't remember, is WEBMAT collaboration actions limited to just one other member?

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Since you were asking with the stuff about studying the weapons in a quote:

WEB-MAT: Magister Maximilian de Gaynesford, Gold Wizard
[ ] MAX: Learning: specify what and from who. You may pay for a trainer.
[ ] MAX: Study an artefact: specify which.
[ ] MAX: Receive dictation: specify which two papers or one book will be written.

WEB-MAT: Magister Johann, Gold Wizard
[ ] JOHANN: Learning: specify what and from who. You may pay for a trainer.
[ ] JOHANN: Study an artefact: specify which.
[ ] JOHANN: Write a paper: specify which.

WEB-MAT: Lord Magister Egrimm van Horstmann, Light Wizard
[ ] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (specify what)
[ ] EGRIMM: Learning: specify what from who. You may pay for a trainer.
[ ] EGRIMM: Study an artefact: specify which.
[ ] EGRIMM: Write a paper: specify which.

WEB-MAT: Other
[ ] WEB-MAT: Hunt an apparition with a member of WEB-MAT (specify who and which)
[ ] WEB-MAT: Attempt to recruit someone to WEB-MAT (specify who)
[ ] WEB-MAT: Enchant or otherwise modify your Gyrocarriage (specify how)

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"Study an artefact" is marked as a one employee action rather than a "list who you're doing this with" action the way Waystone actions are, so I don't think we could grab both Johann and Egrimm for the weapons, by a strict reading of the action list.

 

[Mopman43]

"Study an artefact" is marked as a one employee action rather than a "list who you're doing this with" action the way Waystone actions are, so I don't think we could grab both Johann and Egrimm for the weapons, by a strict reading of the action list.

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Unless we have both of them study it?

Though that might be two Mathilde actions at that point.

 

[Rafin]

Unless we have both of them study it?

Though that might be two Mathilde actions at that point.

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I guess for balance reasons? Because it doesn't make any sense otherwise. On the other hand it should not count as two separate WEB-MAT actions either for the purpose of bonus actions, so I guess it's just up to what's easier to balance.

 

[Boney]

Since you were asking with the stuff about studying the weapons in a quote:

"Study an artefact" is marked as a one employee action rather than a "list who you're doing this with" action the way Waystone actions are, so I don't think we could grab both Johann and Egrimm for the weapons, by a strict reading of the action list.

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You can, I'm just trying to prevent the entire action list from devolving into [ ] Do something (specify what) with someone (optional) (specify who).

 

[Godwinson]

You can, I'm just trying to prevent the entire action list from devolving into [ ] Do something (specify what) with someone (optional) (specify who).

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[ ] Do what with who, maybe.

 

[Sparsebeard]

Hmmm, I wonder could "[ ] Try to see through Pall of Darkness with your improved magical senses." be done as a WEB-MAT action?

Having many different type of windsights might be useful to compare and contrast (are non-visual windsight like Johann or Egrimm even affected) AND having our teammates being able to see through our spell opens options in battle.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Hmmm, I wonder could "[ ] Try to see through Pall of Darkness with your improved magical senses." be done as a WEB-MAT action?

Having many different type of windsights might be useful to compare and contrast (are non-visual windsight like Johann or Egrimm even affected) AND having our teammates being able to see through our spell opens options in battle.

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I think the problem there is "improved magical senses". Egrimm and Johann have normal magical senses—even if Johann has specifically trained himself to use it as his primary sense.

We're not testing if magical senses can see through Pall of Darkness—the answer to that is a clear "no". We're testing to see if our specific windsight ability is good enough to see through it.

 

[Codex]

I think the problem there is "improved magical senses". Egrimm and Johann have normal magical senses—even if Johann has specifically trained himself to use it as his primary sense.

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Point of contention is that improved magical senses is too vague. Mathilde has exceptional abilities but Johann is still better than her at determining the directions of Waystone flow because his Sense works as a compass. That may not be relevant for this exact experiment, but I need to point out that Johann is exceptional in his specialty.

 

[Tomcost]

Hmmm. The vote has calmed down, and it seems unlikely to change now.

It seems we are going to meet Markgraf Niklaus and know whether we need to worry about it or not.