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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Boney said:
Similarly, Elves seem to lack the 'cinnamon roll' instinct. Every one of the Elf-beast relationships - Ulthuan in general with Great Eagles and Griffins, Caledorians and Dragons, Ellyrians and horses, Chracians and lions, and so on - are relationships of mutual respect because those critters are extremely deadly or powerful or magical or cunning or wise or whatever. Every time it's framed as something that is earned. They just don't seem to have that 'they are adorable, and I would kill for them' urge that humanity is prone to. So it would seem that you cannot build a relationship with Elves just by endearing yourself to them, you need to be able to earn their respect in some way first.
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Hmm, Asarnil succumbed to Anton's powers though, has he been away from Ulthuan for so long that he's started to acclimate to the local culture?

…wait, I can hear him screaming from here.
 
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Boney said:
Similarly, Elves seem to lack the 'cinnamon roll' instinct. Every one of the Elf-beast relationships - Ulthuan in general with Great Eagles and Griffins, Caledorians and Dragons, Ellyrians and horses, Chracians and lions, and so on - are relationships of mutual respect because those critters are extremely deadly or powerful or magical or cunning or wise or whatever. Every time it's framed as something that is earned. They just don't seem to have that 'they are adorable, and I would kill for them' urge that humanity is prone to. So it would seem that you cannot build a relationship with Elves just by endearing yourself to them, you need to be able to earn their respect in some way first.
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At least part of that is going to be the nature of the source material. Various mounts and big gribblies are relevant to a tabletop game, because they appear on the tabletop, and the lore is generally at least tangentially related to the stuff in the book. The RPGs suffer from this to a lesser degree, but even there it's difficult. You could have a section on various elf pets, but A) don't you want to use your limited space for something more relevant and B) it risks painting that particular faction as the 'pet guys' (either Elf Kingdom or Elfs in general) if nobody else gets that, and if everyone gets a pet section, then that's even more space used, and now you're the pet guy.

Your take and "Elfs are like humans in regard to cuteness (and anything else that goes unsaid)" seem to be both valid ways on how to interpret canon, though obviously yours is more relevant for DL. It's also more interesting in that it makes Elfs more non-human, though it should be noted that the span for human is pretty wide as well.
 
Boney said:
[...] relationships of mutual respect because those critters are extremely deadly or powerful or magical or cunning or wise [...] it would seem that you cannot build a relationship with Elves just by endearing yourself to them, you need to be able to earn their respect in some way first.
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The way Mathilde endears herself to humans and dwarves is by being a deadly and powerful and cunning magic user, and using that to solve hard problems (usually by killing them) which earns the respect of her allies, so she should get along with the elves easily enough.

Wolf though...Wolf specced pretty hard into being a cinnamon roll. I'm not sure he's got what it takes to do elf diplomacy.
 
BurnNote said:
At least part of that is going to be the nature of the source material. Various mounts and big gribblies are relevant to a tabletop game, because they appear on the tabletop, and the lore is generally at least tangentially related to the stuff in the book. The RPGs suffer from this to a lesser degree, but even there it's difficult. You could have a section on various elf pets, but A) don't you want to use your limited space for something more relevant and B) it risks painting that particular faction as the 'pet guys' (either Elf Kingdom or Elfs in general) if nobody else gets that, and if everyone gets a pet section, then that's even more space used, and now you're the pet guy.

Your take and "Elfs are like humans in regard to cuteness (and anything else that goes unsaid)" seem to be both valid ways on how to interpret canon, though obviously yours is more relevant for DL. It's also more interesting in that it makes Elfs more non-human, though it should be noted that the span for human is pretty wide as well.
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Now, Dwarfs on the other hand axe-pommel:

 
Dwarves respect loyalty.
And what is more stereotypically loyal that a dog?
Also, that is obviously a highly trained (and exceptionally strong if that barrel is full) service animal performing an important duty.
 
picklepikkl said:
Also, I am really curious to see what nonsense we can pull off by flipping to Protector. Don't you want to send Boney to his balcony to have a long think after we do something bonkers? Trolling the QM is one of the great joys of worshipping Ranald.
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I want to see the Protector proc for both the Shadow Warriors and multiple Druchi factions simultaneously.


mathymancer said:
Wolf though...Wolf specced pretty hard into being a cinnamon roll. I'm not sure he's got what it takes to do elf diplomacy
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Invite them to observe a demonstration of Gazul's Sword against the next threat to try is luck on K8P, with Best Doggo wolfing the controls.
 
I wonder if the Druchii have a substantially higher threshold for "equal" compared to other elves partly as a blowback from the whole Bel Shanaar thing. From their perspective, they were betrayed by those they trusted the most when Bel Shanaar became Phoenix King instead of Malekith. It's possible that has made them—on a cultural level—less trusting of others, and in general are less likely to extend any respect towards those who would have otherwise earned it.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I wonder if the Druchii have a substantially higher threshold for "equal" compared to other elves partly as a blowback from the whole Bel Shanaar thing. From their perspective, they were betrayed by those they trusted the most when Bel Shanaar became Phoenix King instead of Malekith. It's possible that has made them—on a cultural level—less trusting of others, and in general are less likely to extend any respect towards those who would have otherwise earned it.
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Druchii being less trusting of others? I think it has less to do with Bel Shanaar and more with the constant backstab the Bitch-King build their society upon.
 
K von Carstein said:
Druchii being less trusting of others? I think it has less to do with Bel Shanaar and more with the constant backstab the Bitch-King build their society upon.
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The systematic enslavement of all other sapeints they come across probably does not help with considering them equal or the systematic Dhar use, elves may not become corrupt from it in the same way a human does, but everyone who has to use it as their day job still has to cultivate the mindset needed to twist it into submission.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Well, that obviously doesn't help, but I'm more wondering on the root of the cause, rather than what's prolonging that particular wound upon the national psyche.
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I do not think the Druchi can be understood as a nation apart from the Great Leader. To be Druchi does not mean to be a Nagatheyan who just happened to move to the Land of Chill, it is to be a supporter of Prince Maleketh, their birth as a society was in the blood they spilled in his name. His cult of personality is bound up in the only constructive national myth they have 'recover our homeland for the True King'
 
Yeah, for all that it's kind of reductive I do think that a solid sixty to seventy percent of Druuchi society is just Malekith's cult of personality. I can't really see a way of examining the Druuchi psyche divorced from his influence.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Well, that obviously doesn't help, but I'm more wondering on the root of the cause, rather than what's prolonging that particular wound upon the national psyche.
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If we're talking about the root cause, the most obvious candidate is generational trauma resulting from Aenarion's closest followers being unable to move on from war - a people who had to become brutal to survive the Coming of Chaos, unable to reconcile their existences with peace, unable to go back.

More mythically, we could say it is the Curse of Khaine, the result of Aenarion drawing the Widowmaker and dooming his people to become more warlike.

Knowing elves, that's one and the same.
 
Parabola said:
If we're talking about the root cause, the most obvious candidate is generational trauma resulting from Aenarion's closest followers being unable to move on from war - a people who had to become brutal to survive the Coming of Chaos, unable to reconcile their existences with peace, unable to go back.

More mythically, we could say it is the Curse of Khaine, the result of Aenarion drawing the Widowmaker and dooming his people to become more warlike.

Knowing elves, that's one and the same.
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So Malekith (and Aenarion's relationship with Morathi, along with Morathi herself) as an embodiment of that curse/trauma from the Coming of Chaos?
 
The founding mythos of the Druchii is that of betrayal and the weakness of peacetime rulers. That Malekith, son of Aenarion, was passed over for Phoenix King in favour of Bel Shanaar ostensibly because he would be a superior peacetime ruler. Malekith accepted this, and spent the coming centuries burnishing his own credentials as a peacetime ruler by becoming ambassador to the Dwarves and forging an alliance that dominated the world. But while Malekith was proving that a ruler born in war could rule in peace, Bel Shanaar proved the folly of desiring a ruler that had never known hardship by falling under the sway of the Pleasure Cults. Bel Shanaar killed himself with poison rather than seeing the truth come to light, and the other Princes sabotaged the Flame of Asuryan to cripple Malekith when he tried to take the crown so he could fight the Pleasure Cults that Bel Shanaar had allowed to blossom.

It's purestrain Hard Man narrative. Aenarion is the Hard Man who created Good Times, then the Good Times made Soft Men in the form of Bel Shanaar and the Pleasure Cults who brought on Hard Times once more, necessitating that Malekith, the next Hard Man, take back control to bring on the next set of Good Times, which will be here for everyone just as soon as he conquers Ulthuan, which he will then rule forever in the One Weird Trick that will forever pause the cycle at Good Times.
 
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Huh, were the pleasure cults really the result of the Asur getting soft after the initial Chaos invasion was fought off, or did Morathi purposely arrange all that in an attempt to get her son on the throne? Was Malekith in on it all along?
 
It's a bit odd for the narrative to decry the pleasure cults as being the cause of the problem when Morathi is, well, Morathi, but I suppose they can only shift the narrative so far away from the truth.
 
Boney said:
The founding mythos of the Druchii is that of betrayal and the weakness of peacetime rulers. That Malekith, son of Aenarion, was passed over for Phoenix King in favour of Bel Shanaar ostensibly because he would be a superior peacetime ruler. Malekith accepted this, and spent the coming centuries burnishing his own credentials as a peacetime ruler by becoming ambassador to the Dwarves and forging an alliance that dominated the world. But while Malekith was proving that a ruler born in war could rule in peace, Bel Shanaar proved the folly of desiring a ruler that had never known hardship by falling under the sway of the Pleasure Cults. Bel Shanaar killed himself with poison rather than seeing the truth come to light, and the other Princes sabotaged the Flame of Asuryan to cripple Malekith when he tried to take the crown so he could fight the Pleasure Cults that Bel Shanaar had allowed to blossom.

It's purestrain Hard Man narrative. Aenarion is the Hard Man who created Good Times, then the Good Times made Soft Men in the form of Bel Shanaar and the Pleasure Cults who brought on Hard Times once more, necessitating that Malekith, the next Hard Man, take back control to bring on the next set of Good Times, which will be here for everyone just as soon as he conquers Ulthuan, which he will then rule forever in the One Weird Trick that will forever pause the cycle at Good Times.
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Also, Pay No Attention To Morathi's Soirees. (Or were Bel Shannar's Pleasure Cult left retroactively as Slaaneshi while Morathis are fine as Atharti?)
 
Isn't it common knowledge that Morathi was behind those cults? Oh and the princes sabotaging the flame of their god is pure copium.
 
StormySky said:
Huh, were the pleasure cults really the result of the Asur getting soft after the initial Chaos invasion was fought off, or did Morathi purposely arrange all that in an attempt to get her son on the throne? Was Malekith in on it all along?
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The novels indicate it was Morathi's doing and Malekith wasn't in on it (he knew Morathi was behind the pleasure cults, but he wasn't working with her) until Bel-Shanaar implied he was going to name Imrik of Caledor to be his successor, and he went to Morathi to hatch his murder plot.

But who knows what's the case here? Other than Boney, obviously.
 
That one peasant was right all along. A mysterious force using a picky magical artifact is no basis for a governing body. Doubly so when that same picky magical artifact is saying the Dark Lord of Evil is the One True King.

I agree Malekith was probably a decent guy at one point but he has long since slide too far down the slippery slope to still be in that position
 
Kebarton said:
That one peasant was right all along. A mysterious force using a picky magical artifact is no basis for a governing body. Doubly so when that same picky magical artifact is saying the Dark Lord of Evil is the One True King.
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No magical artefact ever said that Malekith is the rightful anything, that's the point. The Phoenix Flame did a pretty good job actually, of all the candidates who passed in it only 2 were failures. The rest was very good, or at least decent.
 
Boney said:
It's purestrain Hard Man narrative. Aenarion is the Hard Man who created Good Times, then the Good Times made Soft Men in the form of Bel Shanaar and the Pleasure Cults who brought on Hard Times once more, necessitating that Malekith, the next Hard Man, take back control to bring on the next set of Good Times, which will be here for everyone just as soon as he conquers Ulthuan, which he will then rule forever in the One Weird Trick that will forever pause the cycle at Good Times.
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"Be an omnicompetent tyrant with a boundless thirst for power, that works for m- what do you mean a human did that and it didn't work out for him? I don't care, I'm not a human!"

"Like I was saying, be me, that's my secret :V"
 
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