Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Boney]

Was Malekith in on it all along?

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Exactly when Malekith became in on it is a really interesting point. You can read it as him being in concert with Morathi from the very start, to him being swayed at some point along the way, possibly by the Circlet of Iron, to him only crossing the line that very last day at the Shrine of Asuryan.

It's a bit odd for the narrative to decry the pleasure cults as being the cause of the problem when Morathi is, well, Morathi, but I suppose they can only shift the narrative so far away from the truth.

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Isn't it common knowledge that Morathi was behind those cults? Oh and the princes sabotaging the flame of their god is pure copium.

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Malekith publicly denounced and arrested Morathi and her coterie for being members of it, which is why he was trusted with the authority to further pursue and eradicate the Cults.

 

[Blackout]

So what you're saying is we need to raid the basement where Malekith is growing his 20 magically enhanced superchildren.

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Now, I don't want to imply anything here, but the Black Guard of Naggarond are organized into 20 Towers, each led by a Tower Master, who squabble and compete against each other for Malekith's favour, and they recruit from young children who are put into gruelling deathmatches until only the strongest survive to be inducted into one of the Towers, where they are indoctrinated to revere and love the Witch-King above all others.

Now read that again, but replacing "Tower" with "Legion".

 

[Broccoliccoli]

It's purestrain Hard Man narrative. Aenarion is the Hard Man who created Good Times, then the Good Times made Soft Men in the form of Bel Shanaar and the Pleasure Cults who brought on Hard Times once more, necessitating that Malekith, the next Hard Man, take back control to bring on the next set of Good Times, which will be here for everyone just as soon as he conquers Ulthuan, which he will then rule forever in the One Weird Trick that will forever pause the cycle at Good Times.

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Do you interpret the way their society is cruel to itself as just regular 'I live in hard times'-stuff? Because you could also see it altruistic-ish deliberate engineering to ensure no softness will ever sprout no matter how bountiful the times are.

 

[pucflek]

One Weird Trick

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Also known as somehow living longer than every other elf save his mother.

I really wonder how different Dwarves and Elves really are, because outside of the baseline age difference, it really does seem like the outliers that survive it run on sheer grit. It would be kind of funny if he got the throne and then keeled over like a week after because after he achieved his life's ambition, there was nothing else to latch onto and keep him going.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Malekith publicly denounced and arrested Morathi and her coterie for being members of it, which is why he was trusted with the authority to further pursue and eradicate the Cults.

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Right, but this is the Druuchi national myth and she's the second most powerful person in Naggaroth; their own myth framing her as being largely responsible for Malekith not getting the throne he deserved is an odd choice, unless I've misunderstood something.

 

[HeWhoLurks]

No magical artefact ever said that Malekith is the rightful anything, that's the point. The Phoenix Flame did a pretty good job actually, of all the candidates who passed in it only 2 were failures. The rest was very good, or at least decent.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the majority of Phoenix Kings get archmages to cast spells on them to protect them from flames before walking into the Flame of Asuryan?

 

[pucflek]

Right, but this is the Druuchi national myth and she's the second most powerful person in Naggaroth; their own myth framing her as being largely responsible for Malekith not getting the throne he deserved is an odd choice, unless I've misunderstood something.

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Generally speaking, your common elf doesn't live much past millenium. In seven generations, a lot can be forgotten. Maybe because the people who do survive longer than that are powerful and are interested in not rocking the boat that is letting them stay in power, even if it has Malekith shaped ceiling.

Other possibility is that she has done "time", this was permitted because of course son has a weak spot for his mother, and she is not up to that bullshit anymore. Cult of Pleasure is officially proscribed, and while Morathi might be somewhat open about still running it in her home domain, thats likely also the only place where it is practiced enough that someone can lend credence to the rumours. And they know better than to do that if they don't want Morathi smothering them in sleep.

 

[Acolyte]

Right, but this is the Druuchi national myth and she's the second most powerful person in Naggaroth; their own myth framing her as being largely responsible for Malekith not getting the throne he deserved is an odd choice, unless I've misunderstood something.

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Doublethink.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the majority of Phoenix Kings get archmages to cast spells on them to protect them from flames before walking into the Flame of Asuryan?

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I sincerly doubt a few puny arch mages can hold back the flames of asuryan. Also thats almost certainly the bullshit from the endtimes.

 

[Hydroplatypus]

Right, but this is the Druuchi national myth and she's the second most powerful person in Naggaroth; their own myth framing her as being largely responsible for Malekith not getting the throne he deserved is an odd choice, unless I've misunderstood something.

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I imagine that malekith's version of the story has had a bit of editing applied, so that the druchii have collectively forgotten that she was behind it.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the majority of Phoenix Kings get archmages to cast spells on them to protect them from flames before walking into the Flame of Asuryan?

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Well, yes, but then you're getting into the murky grounds of "What's stronger, a God's divine judgement, or a spell of flame resist?"

 

[Blackout]

I sincerly doubt a few puny arch mages can hold back the flames of asuryan. Also thats almost certainly the bullshit from the endtimes.

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It is mentioned in sources from before the End Times, but I agree that the idea that a couple of flameproof spells can hold back Asuryan's wrath is silly, and material before the End Times didn't shy away from directly depicting the Phoenix Kings as having the blessings of Asuryan. You'd think that he'd at least have told the Phoenix Guard not to follow their every command if they were actually imposters.

 

[Sparsebeard]

Right, but this is the Druuchi national myth and she's the second most powerful person in Naggaroth; their own myth framing her as being largely responsible for Malekith not getting the throne he deserved is an odd choice, unless I've misunderstood something.

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I mean, once he got power and full control over propaganda he can pretty much just enslave or kill off anyone pointing out the hypocrisy. The society runs on fear and paranoia, and it's not like the average citizen has lots of contacts with outside society.

Totalitarian regimes do it all the time on earth without their leaders having the powers of halfgods. In a way, Drucchi society isn't that different from North Korea, China, Russia, etc.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Doublethink.

I sincerly doubt a few puny arch mages can hold back the flames of asuryan. Also thats almost certainly the bullshit from the endtimes.

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The fireproofing thing is much older than End Times; Boney talks about it a bit here:

When Aenerion died, nobody actually knew he died - the last time he was seen alive was leading a force defend the ritual site where the Great Vortex was being created and he never came back, since he'd spent his dying moments returning Widowmaker to the uninhabited isle that held the Shrine of Khaine. This kind of made everyone nervous about crowning a new Phoenix King, because if the old one was still alive then whoever they put forward is automatically disqualified and then they've just burned the greatest Elf they could find for nothing. So they took precautions. Their seers focused for all they were worth on finding the most auspicious day to crown him on and the priests layered Bel Shanaar in all the protective enchantments they could so if Asuryan gave him the thumbs-down through no fault of his own they might be able to yank him out before it was too late. And Bel Shanaar went through the fire and came out the other side untouched.

Does this mean that Bel Shanaar didn't really have the Asuryan stamp of approval? Well, maybe? He turned out to be a pretty good ruler and Asuryan didn't start smiting people so maybe that's okay. And then when the next person to go into the flame is Malekith with Bel Shanaar's blood still dripping from his hands and he gets turned extra crispy for it, that can be seen as confirmation that the Flame's judgement is working fine, but it doesn't really disprove the 'maybe Aenerion's still stuck in the Vortex or something so it's stuck on burn everyone mode' theory. So they went through the same process of preparation that they did with Bel Shanaar. Caledor I is crowned and turns out to be a pretty good ruler, and after that the protective magic became just the way things were done.

This isn't End Times stuff, this has been canon since 4th Edition and was confirmed in 7th.

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Does it work? Is it a pointless tradition? Are they cheating their God? Is He letting them get away with it? Nobody knows.

Edit: Helps if I reply to the correct person.

 

[Boney]

Do you interpret the way their society is cruel to itself as just regular 'I live in hard times'-stuff? Because you could also see it altruistic-ish deliberate engineering to ensure no softness will ever sprout no matter how bountiful the times are.

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Partly that, part deliberate infighting stoked by Malekith and Morathi to prevent anyone else from accumulating power, part an inevitable product of living under what is essentially an ur-fascist ideology on steroids.

Right, but this is the Druuchi national myth and she's the second most powerful person in Naggaroth; their own myth framing her as being largely responsible for Malekith not getting the throne he deserved is an odd choice, unless I've misunderstood something.

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Every single Elf in Ulthuan would have heard about it, including the ones that would go on to become the Druchii. Not even Malekith can handwave away an established fact that literally everyone heard about, especially since he was getting used to his new, extra-crispy existence at the time. By the time everyone who was there has died off, the story has been established long enough that trying to change it would be a sign of weakness, and whatever embellishments to justify her still hanging around would have proven themselves to be sufficient.

 

[Parabola]

So what you're saying is we need to raid the basement where Malekith is growing his 20 magically enhanced superchildren.

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I was referring to Nagash, actually. He was also royalty of a thriving empire, a brilliant magic-user, great general and warrior, and ended up rebelling because he wanted the throne more than another guy, willing to kill for it.

The parallels between the two are pretty intentional, and only make their differences more glaring - one wishes to rule his homeland, the other devastated his. One went to a very cold land to gather his forces, the other was born in a desert empire (and was responsible for turning it uninhabitable). And most importantly, Malekith actually has connections and bonds with people he cares for (even if many of them are gone), whereas Nagash has never cared for anyone but himself.

 

[Shane_357]

Honestly I just prefer the headcanon that the Flames of Asuryan didn't 'judge' Malekith, he just failed the test by throwing himself out of the fire. A Phoenix must burn to be reborn after all.

 

[Mopman43]

Honestly I just prefer the headcanon that the Flames of Asuryan didn't 'judge' Malekith, he just failed the test by throwing himself out of the fire. A Phoenix must burn to be reborn after all.

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Nah, I don't like it because that's not headcanon, that's just End Times canon.

Like, that's literally it in the End Times. If he had stayed in a second longer, he'd have been Phoenix King.

 

[Robotninja]

I was referring to Nagash, actually. He was also royalty of a thriving empire, a brilliant magic-user, great general and warrior, and ended up rebelling because he wanted the throne more than another guy, willing to kill for it.

The parallels between the two are pretty intentional, and only make their differences more glaring - one wishes to rule his homeland, the other devastated his. One went to a very cold land to gather his forces, the other was born in a desert empire (and was responsible for turning it uninhabitable). And most importantly, Malekith actually has connections and bonds with people he cares for (even if many of them are gone), whereas Nagash has never cared for anyone but himself.

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Nagash could fit the prophecy for who will kill him IIRC.

 

[Mopman43]

Nagash could fit the prophecy for who will kill him IIRC.

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Though will it come to pass that the firstborn son of noble blood shall rise to power. The child will be learned in the darkest arts and he will raise an army of terrible beasts. Thus will the Dark King fall, slain by neither blade nor arrow but by a sorcerous power of darkest magic and so shall his body be consumed in the flames and for all eternity burn.

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I'd say Nagash fits, along with a good number of others (Vlad, Mannfred, Archaon, Teclis if he's the older twin and goes for Dark Magic, etc)

 

[Constenanto]

What prophecy is this about? Malekith?

 

[Mopman43]

What prophecy is this about? Malekith?

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This is the full Prophecy of Demise (or at least the bit we know and care about).

And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch upon every land. Steel will be his skin and fire will be his blood, in hatred will he conquer all before him. No blade forged of Man, Dwarf or Elf shall endure him fear. Though will it come to pass that the firstborn son of noble blood shall rise to power. The child will be learned in the darkest arts and he will raise an army of terrible beasts. Thus will the Dark King fall, slain by neither blade nor arrow but by a sorcerous power of darkest magic and so shall his body be consumed in the flames and for all eternity burn.

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Malekith believes he is the Dark King, and him taking efforts to try to make sure that the conditions of the defeat of the Dark King don't come about are why male Dark Elves are not taught sorcery in Naggaroth (with it being unclear if that's just 'no Dark Magic' or 'no magic period').

But it's not like its guaranteed to be about him- frankly, Nagash or Archaon would work great as the Dark King as well.

 

[newgman]

[X] [SCRIBE] Locals

[X] Druchii Diplomats

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

If we teach Mandred how to make Ulgu Apparitions, then he'd potentially qualify as the Firstborn Noble.

... it's a very ambiguous prophecy.

 

[Parabola]

Notably, the Prophecy of Demise came to Caledor when Aenarion first picked up the Widowmaker, and it's supposed to be about how the Elven race will fall, but we only know the part about the dark king and how he will eventually fall.

Presumably Boney would elaborate a bit on it should it ever come up.

 

[Mopman43]

Notably, the Prophecy of Demise came to Caledor when Aenarion first picked up the Widowmaker, and it's supposed to be about how the Elven race will fall, but we only know the part about the dark king and how he will eventually fall.

Presumably Boney would elaborate a bit on it should it ever come up.

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A full copy of the Prophecy of Demise would go great next to her Zandri and W'Soran texts!