Uh, we do have the basic principles of liminal realms because we have a +5 library bonus on liminal realms.
I'm not sure why you are insisting we have no research or knowledge on how a liminal realm works when that is provably false.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Uh, we do have the basic principles of liminal realms because we have a +5 library bonus on liminal realms.
I'm not sure why you are insisting we have no research or knowledge on how a liminal realm works when that is provably false.
That's true, but we may be seeing something that's a cross between a liminal realm and something else. It's permanent, and a physical object can exist in it, but it's also partially existing within the Hedge and partially in the real world (like a soul may), and so may be something like Substance of Shadows as well.
He may have a different calculus for risk than us, seeing the benefit of making their Hedgewise tradition more valuable to the Empire being worth it, or he may simply be unaware of the range of risks of creating new liminal realms outside of Haletha's domain of the Forest of Shadows. It could be that we'd agree that the additional risk of creating those weak points is worth it in return for the tributaries if it was the only option, but that it would be preferable not to create them, whether by adding defences to the tributary 'liminal realms' or even by using one of the other rituals outside the Forest of Shadows.
The name of the quest is Divided Loyalties, after all, and Askel may have reasons not to mention what he considers to be a long tail risk in order to maximise the political benefits to his people.
How much Haletha cares about the outside of the Forest of Shadows is also an open question.
I think Boney has told us how to do it. Get an enchanted item that allows Mathilde to leave her body and one that allows her to return to it. Leave her body and use AV to create a liminal realm anchored to Mathilde's soul, then return to her body.
Simple!
We know what the Empire knows about liminal realms. That seems to be approximately nothing useful about how they're made or protected, just descriptions of the liminal realms themselves. The liminal realms books we have probably describe what they look like and what creatures you might encounter there, not how they were built or their metaphysics. Guide books rather than construction manuals.
Note that when we created our liminal realm we didn't get the +5 on the roll from the books letting us recognise what was happening.
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We can also study Branuhlune.
I would assume this was the case because we had no idea that we are about to make a LR and therefore did not consult the books.
On what the Empire knows about liminal realms:
Mathilde herself doesn't think the Empire knows about this, and that this is a problem other people have solved.
In terms of what liminal realms are and how they arise, we have one description here:
It seems that if souls absorb enough magic they can 'naturally' create a liminal realm. Thinking about how this is possible, if souls naturally span the liminal boundary then they may provide a channel for the Winds absorbed by the souls to reach the liminal and so gradually inflate a liminal realm, until those various realms for each tree get big enough to reach each other.
Mathilde herself doesn't think the Empire knows about this, and that this is a problem other people have solved.
In terms of what liminal realms are and how they arise, we have one description here:
It seems that if souls absorb enough magic they can 'naturally' create a liminal realm. Thinking about how this is possible, if souls naturally span the liminal boundary then they may provide a channel for the Winds absorbed by the souls to reach the liminal and so gradually inflate a liminal realm, until those various realms for each tree get big enough to reach each other.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
If we're going to Cathay, it should be by enchanted Gyrocopter anyway. Much faster.
- Pronouns
- He
Would it be possible to turn the inside of the Gyrocopter into a liminal realm? Or at least enchant it with whatever magic makes the Colleges bigger on the inside?
you know, I was always a bit meh (at best) about the enchanted Gyrocopter: but if making it a tardis is on the table, then I'm in.
Can liminal realms be moved (relative to their origin point)? I've been visualising them as static.
How would you even move them? You'd have to exert some sort of force on them from the outside and if you can do that, then why aren't they affected by gravity or the planets rotation? What keeps it "grounded" to a specific location?
How would you even move them? You'd have to exert some sort of force on them from the outside and if you can do that, then why aren't they affected by gravity or the planets rotation? What keeps it "grounded" to a specific location?
I guess it could work if we used an enchantment to replace the need for fuel. We'd probably need to restock on water at some point still, but that's less of an issue. Shame the dwarves probably wouldn't go for creating a trade fleet of enchanted gyrocopters to massively expand trade with Cathay and Ind.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Well, don't Algard's Screaming Towers keep appearing in different locations?
That's easily done in Bright Magic with Inextinguishable Flame (possibly combined with Metal's Stoke the Forge if we can manage it)
There's been a lot of talk in the thread about enchanting our Gyrocarriage, but not much action in that direction yet.
- Location
- Oklahoma
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They must be effected by gravity and the planet's rotation, otherwise they'd immediately leave said planet.
Or rather, they'd have to be anchored to the relative perspective of the planet itself in order to move and rotate with it.
Which... Doesn't necessarily mean you could anchor it to something much smaller, because magic, but could at least hint in that direction.
They must be effected by gravity and the planet's rotation, otherwise they'd immediately leave said planet.
Or rather, they'd have to be anchored to the relative perspective of the planet itself in order to move and rotate with it.
Which... Doesn't necessarily mean you could anchor it to something much smaller, because magic, but could at least hint in that direction.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Seriously though- I don't see what liminal realms offer us besides another thing to say 'Oh Cool!' about and spend AP on.
What is the goal here? How does faffing about with pocket-sized liminal realms do anything for our other goals and projects?
I've seen a hundred variants on pocket dimensions and bags of holding. I'm not real interested in spending a ton of AP just to make the setting a bit more like D&D.
What is the goal here? How does faffing about with pocket-sized liminal realms do anything for our other goals and projects?
I've seen a hundred variants on pocket dimensions and bags of holding. I'm not real interested in spending a ton of AP just to make the setting a bit more like D&D.
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Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
Could be the same kinda hat trick as the grey college; the access point (the tower) is in different places, but the realm itself is always in the same (non-) place
consequences
Not A Nice Person At All
- Location
- Jerkville
Third loot option the next time we fail to bring a bunch of strong backs.
The Lady Sigillite 2: I'm Fighting in a Space Civil War?
- Location
- A Pit Of My Own Making
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If Branuhlune is using a liminal realm to disappear into, it's a proof it's possible to move the entry point.
Well, for me it's a lot to do with the IC motive, it's an institutional goal for the whole Grey College, the last bit of homework left by it's founder.
There is prestige in being the one to solve it. To go down in history as 'the one that solved it.'
I'm not a mathematician by any shape, but if I had accidentally the Riemann hypothesis during my thesis, I sure as hell would not have gone 'well, not my area,' and hand it off to someone else.
There is an inherent motivation to wanting this by being a grey wizard and a researcher. Even if it don't make numbers go up.
Well, actually, it would break collage rep with the numbers going up, but you get what I mean.
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Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Welcome to the thread!
Adding onto what others have said (Battle Magic, theurgy, becoming a dragon), I wouldn't say Mathilde is getting uniquely powerful or skilled just yet. The Empire has a lot of assorted competent people and Boney has asserted that she is not considered the shrewdest, wisest, killiest, savviest, puissantest, or most learned just yet. Well-rounded, perhaps, but there's many people in the Empire who have spent their whole lives focusing on a single thing and they have Mathilde beat on those. I think she really needs to consolidate her unfinished skills at some point - she has several basic skills at 1/3 or 2/3, and getting them up to at least the basic level of proficiency would give her a pretty decent boost of stats.
In the field of knowing how to dispel and counter dark magic Mathilde has a big advantage that other Magisters don't but that's really not something you should brag about because from there it's only a short hop to 'actually using dark magic'. Even then, the Old World is only one part of the world. It's the most focused-on part of the setting, but it doesn't hold every single expert in the world.
I would say that Mathilde is uniquely connected, though. In the whole of the Empire, there is no one who is so close to dwarves, has the ear of the Emperor's wife, is a major stockholder in a large trading company, and is in the highest non-leadership position of the Colleges of Magic. This allows for many opportunities that others simply don't have, and these things have been responsible for a lot of the good that Mathilde does in the world.
I'm not opposed to the idea of getting more space to carry stuff around, but I'd caution against getting too excited just in case the research doesn't work out.
If we can't secure a liminal realm, that's that (although we know it's possible, we don't know if it's possible for us or if it requires methods we don't have immediately available). If we end up concluding that liminal spaces must be stationary relative to the planet period, that's that unless we wish to stay in a single spot forever. If the theorizing concludes that it can be done but it renders us particularly vulnerable to, say, an enemy wizard putting something there without our consent, that's probably that. If we can figure out a liminal realm in our soul through complex shenanigans, we'd probably want to get extra assurances our soul will be safe, such as getting Gazul Lore. And even through there, we don't know how big we can make it.
I'm all for wacky soul experimentation, but you have to consider all those things. If we go through all those steps and the end result is that we can carry around one more piece of loot for times when we have to vote, I wouldn't be surprised.
For purposes of a trip to Cathay I think it'd be more likely to have the dwarves make us an elaborate custom carriage or two and then enchant those. A single point of library bonus represents between an armful or a shelf's worth of books. We're not going to be carrying around more than two or three book points via questionably-made liminal realms.
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Not sure why you're talking about Mathilde's soul, the post you're replying to was about putting it in a Gyro.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Cool workshop, greater understanding of magic, insight into nature of souls(?).
She's also got divine backing which most other wizards don't. Certainly not on a major artefact level. She's got a very good blend of skills and artefacts - which is how a lot of base human heroes got their chops: by not being the best at any one thing but having combos between skills that can really punch up quite a bit.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'm interested in completing the AV research chain, which includes doing a proper liminal realm construction action, but I am not particularly interested in continuing the research from there. We've got other fish to fry, especially because we can't stop ourselves from voting for acquiring yet more artifacts and secrets whenever they're available.
Yeah, Mathilde is definitely dangerous and surprisingly tanky for a wizard between the belt and the seed, but I definitely think there's a lot of people and creatures that could match her in a fight. Though if we went into the liminal related battle magics to find out more about it that would definitely bump up her scariness factor.
Depends on how trans-humanist we want to get. For example, if we build a liminal realm entrance into Mathilde's soul, can she do more than just store stuff there? Could she, for example grow her soul to fill the realm and so grow a bigger and stronger soul.
We're seen Cadeath has done this, as I quote below. She's made a pocket dimension and filled it with her soul. That may have some pretty significant benefits for her.
Mathilde could do something similar with mists rather than trees and use it as a safe place to keep bound Apparitions between unleashing them.
Being as much a small world as you are a physical person could come with all sorts of benefits. If you could use that as an anchor tricks like leveraging Windherding to grow a new body inside your world if the one you keep outside is killed might be possible, or all sorts of other interesting possibilities.
All in all, liminal realms seem like a very good self-improvement/ascension project. We know someone who's done something similar, Grey Magic seems pretty appropriate for liminal manipulations, and it also potentially builds on our knowledge of the soul.
AV potentially also has additional utility to this. We know that touching AV with your soul doesn't turn it into more of your soul, but we also know that there's a a boundary around the soul from discussion of arcane marks. A stretch goal might be to learn how to safely assimilate AV into a soul by transporting it past the boundary so it can be exposed to raw soul.
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