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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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This was Boney's statement on it:
Boney said:
If Runesmithing was metaphysically hard-locked to descendants of Thungni, the Cult wouldn't need strictures about not revealing the secrets to outsiders and preventing any revealed secrets from being allowed to spread.
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It's a cultural barrier, rather than a metaphysical one.
 
Tobtorp said:
The only secret we know we can get is arcane khazalid, which doesn't help us with runesmithing much. So we don't need thungni in the family tree for that.
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We could also have gained a Thungni Lore skill when we paid for information on the issue the Guild of Runesmiths had with Dum's Runemasters if we'd invested an actions as well as some AV.
 
Boney said:
The Runes that have proven through decades of trial and error performed by College Wizards to be suitable for the flow of Shadow Magic are a varied bunch borrowing heavily from Eltharin and Thieves Cant, but also heavy with Runes affiliated with various Gods - including Ranald, but also including Renbaeth, Loec, Sokth, Qu'aph, Ptra, Halétha, Uxmac, and Anath Raema.
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I never really examined this list when it first came up but it's quite interesting.

Renbaeth is a minor god of Lawyers - definite resonance with lying.

Loec and Qu'aph are potentially Ranald in a silly hat.

Sokth is a god of secrets and assassins that probably isn't Ranald

Ptra stands out as an odd choice at first - Nehekaran God of the Sun and king of the gods, seems like an odd choice. But he'll have specific resonance with Dawn and Dusk which themselves resonate with Ulgu, so I'd guess that's the link.

Haletha is Ranald's daughter. Hedge goddess of boundaries as well as secrets.

Uxmac is a messenger god/Old One, worshipped by the Lizardmen - I guess knowledge of him comes from stolen golden tablets? Or maybe the elves remember him but don't include him in a pantheon. The resonance with Ulgu would be, at a guess, with the fact it's really good at travelling.

Anath Raema is supposedly sister of Khaine, but I don't know much about her beyond that. Presumably like Sokth has a penchant for assassinations?
 
kingreaper said:
Anath Raema is supposedly sister of Khaine, but I don't know much about her beyond that. Presumably like Sokth has a penchant for assassinations?
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Anath Raema is the counterpart to Kurnous. She is the Goddess of the Savage Hunt rather than the Wild Hunt. She encourages hunting and killing for pleasure, whereas Kurnous only does so out of necessity and indicates respect to the Wilderness. Slavers and Beast-tamers in Clar Karond and Karond Kar in the Druchii cities are her most fervent worshippers. There is one legend from Page 65 of 8th Edition High Elves, specifically the section on the Banner of the World Dragon, that states the following:

"Elven legends tell that Draugnir, Father of Dragons, was welcome in Asuryan's court as an equal, for mortal Elves and gods alike were awestruck by his might and nobility. Alas, not all the Elven pantheon were so enamoured. Anath Raema, sister to Khaine and goddess of the savage hunt, saw him as nothing more than an upstart beast to be harried and hunted as any other. Taking her spear, she pursued the Dragon through the heavens. The contest that followed shook the world to its core, rousing even wise Asuryan from contemplation. The Creator halted the battle, but came too late to save Draugnir, whose wounds were beyond healing.

With a single word, Asuryan banished Anath Raema to the Mirai forevermore. From the corpse of his fallen friend, he worked to create a new land where Elves and Dragons could live in peace, beyond the jealousies of the gods. From Draugnir's bones, he forged Ulthuan's mountains, and from the Dragon's flesh he created its broad plains. Draugnir's glittering scales Asuryan gave into the keeping of Isha. She, in turn, passed them to her mortal children, the Elves, who wrought many fabulous works with them, chief amongst them a mighty standard, woven with silver and hung with gems of all shapes and hues. This Banner of the World Dragon endures to this day, a reminder not only of the bond between the Elves and Dragons, but also of that which binds both races to their ancestral home."

Of course, this legend should be taken with some salt, as Deathfang in DL did say that Draugnir's death was caused by using too much of his energy to create Widowmaker, which is another myth.
 
Dragonofelder said:
Maybe it's metaphorical? Aenarion used Widowmaker to create the Kingdoms of Ulthuan
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All the Elven Myths are both true and not true, Metaphorical and Literal, mutually exclusive and yet correct at the same time. It's part of the aesthetic that they revel in contradiction and their ability to believe in things that are contradictory. It's probably part of the reason they can wield multiple Winds and why they treat their Gods the way they do.
 
Do we know what happens to magic from the waystone network when it gets used by Great Works such as the Rune of Valaya, the Widow's closed network, etc. Does the magic gets used and dissappears, or is it just diffused back into the atmosphere?

If it gets diffused, might it be a problem? Even if we succeed in repairing parts of the network, would the energy make it to the Vortex and does it matter?

I wonder if the use of magic from the Waystone Network might be kind of similar to our burning of fossil fuels. So useful for our countries, but also very bad effects on the long term but instead of global heating and extreme climatic events you get higher ambiant magic and more frequent Storms of Chaos...

It would be quite funny if the biggest challenge from the Waystone Project ended up being to convince countries and factions to reduce their magic consumption.
 
Codex said:
All the Elven Myths are both true and not true, Metaphorical and Literal, mutually exclusive and yet correct at the same time. It's part of the aesthetic that they revel in contradiction and their ability to believe in things that are contradictory. It's probably part of the reason they can wield multiple Winds and why they treat their Gods the way they do.
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...I don't know how to feel about the idea that cognitive dissonance would be key to using High Magic.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
...I don't know how to feel about the idea that cognitive dissonance would be key to using High Magic.
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While funny, and slightly disturbing to us, we should remember that this would be pretty much on par. The Grey College actively teaches how to doublethink, for example, because Ulgu is the Wind of confusion and deception, including self-deception. I think we used some of that to spoof the Celestial's intent-based wards in classical inter-college casual prankster style.

Considering how contradictory and messy a combination of the Winds should get, cognitive dissonance actually makes perfect sense. As much as anything about magic does, anyway.

EDIT: New Theory! Dhar is the straight man of the cast going "Oi! You can't do that! That's illogical!" whenever someone mixes the winds with insufficiently balanced simultaneously held contradictory mindstates.
 
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Sparsebeard said:
Do we know what happens to magic from the waystone network when it gets used by Great Works such as the Rune of Valaya, the Widow's closed network, etc. Does the magic gets used and dissappears, or is it just diffused back into the atmosphere?

If it gets diffused, might it be a problem? Even if we succeed in repairing parts of the network, would the energy make it to the Vortex and does it matter?

I wonder if the use of magic from the Waystone Network might be kind of similar to our burning of fossil fuels. So useful for our countries, but also very bad effects on the long term but instead of global heating and extreme climatic events you get higher ambiant magic and more frequent Storms of Chaos...

It would be quite funny if the biggest challenge from the Waystone Project ended up being to convince countries and factions to reduce their magic consumption.
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I think Magic being used for a spell means it's used up- converted into other forms of energy, force and light and sound.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
...I don't know how to feel about the idea that cognitive dissonance would be key to using High Magic.
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I think it says a lot about elves that the Eltharin word for 'balance' and 'harmony', Yenlui, is the same as for 'chaos'. The cultural and linguistic differences are staggering.

...Speaking of which, it was mentioned that there should be a nexus in either Ubersreik or Helmgart, via Athel Yenlui. I have to imagine that was named as such because the woods are roughly in the middle of the Old World (minus the Border Princes and the Badlands).
 
Parabola said:
I think it says a lot about elves that the Eltharin word for 'balance' and 'harmony', Yenlui, is the same as for 'chaos'. The cultural and linguistic differences are staggering.

...Speaking of which, it was mentioned that there should be a nexus in either Ubersreik or Helmgart, via Athel Yenlui. I have to imagine that was named as such because the woods are roughly in the middle of the Old World (minus the Border Princes and the Badlands).
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Several Eltharin words are both a word and its antonym encased in the same rune. Yenlui is one example, but Yngra (Rescue and Imprisonment), Senthoi (Loyalty, Unity and Broken Promise), Galri (both sorrow and joy), Denla (both fulfillment and emptiness), and Elthrai (doom and hope). If you get creative with your phrasing, even more words can become antonyms of themselves.
 
Codex said:
Several Eltharin words are both a word and its antonym encased in the same rune. Yenlui is one example, but Yngra (Rescue and Imprisonment), Senthoi (Loyalty, Unity and Broken Promise), Galri (both sorrow and joy), Denla (both fulfillment and emptiness), and Elthrai (doom and hope). If you get creative with your phrasing, even more words can become antonyms of themselves.
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It sounds like the kind of language I'd never ever want to learn. Suuuuper easy to make one weird phrasing and insult someone.
 
I understand that this is only tangentially related to DL by virtue of it perhaps being relevant to Boney's interests, but I can't help my huge bias. Very recently, GW has announced the return of a long gone faction to Blood Bowl, and yes I like their updated designs:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lhzia7ZbCQ&ab_channel=Warhammer
I couldn't help but chuckle at the "They're as fast as Elves- witout the unfortunate drawback of being an Elf" line.
 
Burned_Cookie said:
Is Kislev also a city? Does the country have a city of the same name in it? Seems confusing.
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It's pretty much the norm at the county level, at least in Germany. Also, the city states like Hamburg. Arguably the Weimar Republic, though I wouldn't argue it. The US isn't free of it either, just look at New York and Washington. Historically, you have every city state ever, and the empires that used to be city states, like Rome.

Generally, context is enough to distinguish. Often, the city is also by far the most important place in the country, so the distinction isn't needed.
 
It's also truly bizarre how Blood Bowl is the first place where GW decided to introduce a Snakeman model. For the Amazons no less:
Here's the article for his reveal.

It feels so weird to see the Amazons get a comeback, even if it's in a comedic spin-off game of WHF.
 
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Mopman43 said:
I'm pretty sure Amazons have been in Bloodbowl for ages.
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They were, but these were their previous models:
They look like they come from the early 2000's at most.
Mopman43 said:
Edit: Here's a DLC for them for the 2nd Steam game.
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I cannot convey my sheer disappointment at the physique of the Amazons in there. Thank god they made the right decision with the new models and made them bulky, because those barbie doll proportions are not it.

I also dislike the "Valkyrie" origin of the Amazons that they seem to be going with. I prefer the natives of Lustria angle, which I think the new models reflect because they do not look Norscan at all.
 
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Codex said:
Several Eltharin words are both a word and its antonym encased in the same rune. Yenlui is one example, but Yngra (Rescue and Imprisonment), Senthoi (Loyalty, Unity and Broken Promise), Galri (both sorrow and joy), Denla (both fulfillment and emptiness), and Elthrai (doom and hope). If you get creative with your phrasing, even more words can become antonyms of themselves.
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It's almost like Elven words refer to a range within a conceptual space. So the word for literate means the spectrum between illiteracy and literate, reputation probably means the spectrum between infamy and fame.

I imagine it makes much more sense when you're a native speaker. A lot of languages do.
 
I see. Like how their word for 'Contentment' means the full range between 'many headpats received, now reading a good book by a warm fire with an efficient flue' and 'listening to a Celestial wither on about the distinction between predestination and prognostication'.
 
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Speaking of the Elven language, I did a quick search for the meaning of the proto-rune used to label the Belthani renegades.

Boney said:
"This one," you say to Tochter as you indicate the stone, "was an enormous pain. It turns out it's not describing a specific ritual, it's warning against a general type of ritual. If I'm right in that the left half of this rune here is a precursor to 'Urithair', and this one is to 'Tyloir' - which I'm not sure about, as the main meaning of 'Tyloir' indicates that its meaning has shifted in Elven tongues - then I suspect it's the result of some sort of schism or corruption of a branch of the Belthani faith, where sacrifices were made to empower or enrich individuals instead of for the good of the whole. Whatever the full story, it's my judgement that it's benign."
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Urithair means "Destruction, conquest, sacrifice of innocence"

Tyloir is the Elven name for the Sundering, but it's also mentioned as meaning "broken lands" and "the cycle of history".

The meaning of Tyloir has clearly shifted—as Mathilde herself states—due to it being associated with a major historical event. Possibly the major historical event in Elven history, and now it's now defined by the Sundering itself rather than defining the Sundering.

If I had had to guess, Tyloir's original meaning would have been something along the lines of "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it", with the modern meaning being "don't ever forget Malekith's betrayal and what he did to us". This leads me to speculate that the original meaning of the proto-rune was possibly "the destroyers of history", "the short-sighted destroyers", "the forgetters", "those who sacrifice the past", or "those who abandoned their traditions", which fits with how the Belthani would have possibly viewed these renegades.
 
Shard said:
It's almost like Elven words refer to a range within a conceptual space. So the word for literate means the spectrum between illiteracy and literate, reputation probably means the spectrum between infamy and fame.

I imagine it makes much more sense when you're a native speaker. A lot of languages do.
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Actually came across something of the like before as internal data representation for natural language processing by machine learning.

Basically each symbol/word/rune implies a range of possible meanings, of which each OTHER word in the phrase/sentence/paragraph/text affects it to differing extents.
So that your AI can tell the difference between Book(paper document with many pages containing information), Booking(process of registering an appointment), Booked(being charged with a legal offense) and Bookish(personality type).

You nail down the context via co-relation, determine the tone and from there you try to figure out whether it is a declaration of fact, an assertion of opinion, an attempt at persuasion, or sarcasm. Which you might note is a lot like how the Winds work anyway, if you want to completely and extensively establish the range of things the Wind might be doing, but will probably just do the highest probability correlations.
Almost definitely constructed rather than emergent..but we knew that since Old Ones.
 
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