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Yeah, my posts are mainly for collecting Funny ratings now, it seems. Even when I don't mean them that way.

I really do think the lookout at the top of Karag Nar would make a great home for Mathilde.
I am all for a tower on top a a mountain for (one of) our homes. That sounds awesome! and like something we can hold over other Magisters.

"Is your tower built atop a Dwarf Karak that you personaly helped reclaim? No? Then your argument is invalid."
 
I am all for a tower on top a a mountain for (one of) our homes. That sounds awesome! and like something we can hold over other Magisters.

"Is your tower built atop a Dwarf Karak that you personaly helped reclaim? No? Then your argument is invalid."
A tower is a good substitute, but a room at the top of Sunrise Mountain with a panoramic view of the dawn horizon is just too fitting for the Twilight Rider. The only way it could be a better fit is if there was an equivalent over on Karag Yar.
 
I'm more pointing out the hypocrisy involved with claiming one side has made every mistake while ignoring the bad practices of your own side, and then getting upset when it's pointed out.

I was very clear after all to point out that it was a small handful of people making these infuriating statements, but that the margin was so narrow that they were decisive. I've even admitted my side didn't always have the best arguments myself, because I am a grown adult who can self-reflect.

Why is it so hard to agree that some of your own were bad?

I just want this fucking behaviour to stop in the future. If you want to drive by vote? That's fine no matter how I grumble about it. If you want to just vote with your gut? That's fine too.

The cancer was the 'I'm voting this way to punish your side for not meeting my arbitrary standard of virtue' votes, which didn't even have the decency to be fair about it because they were perfectly fine with their side using the same tactics for their own foundation.

I just went through all the votes. Your post is an accurate description of exactly 1 vote.

There's 1 person who claimed that they voted the way they did because they thought that the arguments for the other side were repulsive. The vast majority provided no justification for their votes, several minor people all cited in character arguments or where otherwise consistent in their reasoning.
 
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So what happens if the target of a grudge expires for unrelated reasons?

It's tricky. If you can claim even a little of the credit - say, if they die in a battle and it may be that they were ill-prepared for that battle because not too long ago you tried and failed to claim vengeance against them - then it can be acceptable to consider the matter closed. It's not quite properly avenged, and it's not a victory you'd toast and celebrate, but it does mean the Grudge is no longer a constant itch at the back of your consciousness.

Otherwise, it could be inherited. If the Grudge is against a Warboss and they die to non-Dwarves, it's normal to consider whoever takes over the Tribe as the inheritor of the Grudge. This only flies for those who are not worthy of even basic respect - greenskins, Skaven, chaos tribes, and so on. If it's someone that does deserve basic respect, like a human or a Halfling, then it depends on the nature of the Grudge. If it's over the personal actions of that individual, then the matter dies with them. If the person holds a position of authority, then that institution could inherit the Grudge unless they disavow that person's actions and make restitution. If it's about property, then just as property is inherited, so are debts and Grudges - though courtesy would demand you let the inheritor know of the matter, and give them the opportunity to make things right before you resort to vengeance. For grey areas, consult your Clan's Elders, then your local Cleric of Grimnir, then your King. If all else fails, make a pilgrimage to Karak Kadrin and seek the wisdom of the Slayer Keep.

If the Grudge is against a fellow Dwarf, then first you talk to them, then your Clan Elders talk to their Clan Elders, then your King talks to their King, then escalate to the High King for him to adjudicate. This series of safety valves mean that as Grudge-happy as the Dwarves are, it's actually very rare for Dwarf-on-Dwarf Grudges to develop.

There's a few points where this breaks down. What if you don't know who did it? Elves kill a trading caravan, what do you do? History would suggest your King sends an envoy, but if the other party doesn't feel like being helpful things will spiral rather disastrously. This doesn't apply to the world's nastier denizens - if you don't know which greenskins did a thing, but you do know it was greenskins, then just get your vengeance on whatever greenskins are convenient, then double up just to be safe.

What if you have no idea who did it, and there's no way to find out? Pray to Grimnir for a sign and hope he gives you a clue. Failing that, you're stuck. Some will be unable to live with a Grudge they don't even know who to avenge it against, and take the Slayer Oath and seek death in battle so the impossible Grudge dies with them. Some will take the advice of the Cult of Grimnir, often travelling to Karak Kadrin for that purpose, to salve your conscience. If you don't know who ambushed your caravan, you might not ever be able to fully avenge the Grudge, but you can go about the rest of your life with survivable levels of shame if you, say, do your best to make sure others can travel that route safely. If you're a Warrior, join the patrols. If you're a blacksmith, arm caravan guards at cost. If what you do isn't immediately applicable, then the money you earn could pay for those patrols, or be donated to your local Temple of Grimnir.

What if the concept of death doesn't properly apply? If Konrad von Carstein killed your son but then got shanked with a Runefang, there's nothing you can do to pursue vengeance but the Grudge lingers because chances are he's not permanently dead. This is part of what made the Drakenhof campaign a big deal - all those Grudges could have been stuck in limbo forever.
 
Problem is I'm now realising that it doesn't look out onto the dawn. It looks the other way ;_;
Naah, top of the Karak is too high. Too much wind, too much sun and not enough shadows.

A house just beside strong Henge somewhere in a valley on the other hand... plenty of magic around and good food from halflings neighbours.
 
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I'm more pointing out the hypocrisy involved with claiming one side has made every mistake while ignoring the bad practices of your own side, and then getting upset when it's pointed out.

I was very clear after all to point out that it was a small handful of people making these infuriating statements, but that the margin was so narrow that they were decisive. I've even admitted my side didn't always have the best arguments myself, because I am a grown adult who can self-reflect.

Why is it so hard to agree that some of your own were bad?

I just want this fucking behaviour to stop in the future. If you want to drive by vote? That's fine no matter how I grumble about it. If you want to just vote with your gut? That's fine too.

The cancer was the 'I'm voting this way to punish your side for not meeting my arbitrary standard of virtue' votes, which didn't even have the decency to be fair about it because they were perfectly fine with their side using the same tactics for their own foundation.
Again Alec, I think you're doing that thing. Where a couple of people are all up in arms while the rest all agree on the basic premise:

While most people were doing their best, there have been 40+ pages of this stuff. A lot of people just read the update, skimmed some of the discussion and voted and expressed their opinions.

A couple of people, for their own reasons, argued the points. On both sides.
A couple of people, for their own reasons, sniped at the other side. On both sides.

A couple of people, for their own reasons, did whatever it took to win. Including fearmongering, half-truths and misinformation. On both sides. Some of them were called out some of them weren't. On both sides.

You're still arguing with those couple of people on the other side who were doing everything to win, but you aren't limiting your statements. So everybody on the side opposite yours feels called out. Which is why so many are disagreeing with you.

They don't disagree that some folks on their side did whatever it took to win. They disagree that they were the ones using such tactics. That should be understandable.

It would be silly. Like, imagine someone, and this is a hypothetical, not an accusation; But, imagine someone blaming you for emotional blackmail. You didn't do that. But it sure would feel shitty for someone to pile on after all that talk and arguing and call you out for something you didn't do.

So try and limit yourself. @ the people you are talking to, when you speak of such things. Or a lot of people who you did not mean to address will see you venting, and not knowing about you or how invested and emotional you get with this stuff, think you are calling them out, instead of just venting in a forum close to your heart.
 
I'd argue back but we're in the same boat as we were in the debate where my feelings are irrelevant because I'm outnumbered, outgunned and outshouted, so I'm going to leave it at that and just pray the update doesn't make me want to puke at my own weakness for failing to find the right rhetorical trick to flip the vote.
 
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