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that's a take for thrid parties criticizing your side. "your hypocrites! the other side has issues to! so they must be equally bad!" rather than, oh I don't know, taking a step back and looking to see if maybe there is a reason that one side is drawing more flack then the other.


but hey, i voted aginst your option, so I must be an idiot. so feel free to ignore me.
I don't know your using the false neutrality defense right now.

You voted pretty darn early into this entire mess thus taking a side an inheriting the biases imprinted into human nature.

This understandable and naturally I have my own biases as well but it's really hard to call anyone but ironically the drive buys that votes everywhere but this specific arguement a 'third party' after all.

I do think Alectai is being a bit too general with thing myself, but he did say one or two when it came to the virtue signaling bit, which is quite frankly something I can agreement and actually called out in thread, though I must stress that is true as Alectai mentioned early on of only one two people.
 
It's right up near the peak, so the view is of the entire Karak on the west, Death Pass to the north and east, and the East Gate to the south.

I get that, yeah, but isn't everything within the ring of the eight mountains in shadow for like, two thirds of the day? Or am I missing something?
 
If anyone finds that engaging with the discussion, or even just reading it, detracts from their enjoyment of the Quest - or worse, is actively harmful to their state of mind - I would very much like to encourage you to consider the possibility of not reading the discussion. It is entirely valid to just read the update, vote on your preference, and not read a single non-threadmarked post. You can even just read the update and pretend that the voting process doesn't even exist, and each 'vote' is just Mathilde taking a moment to think things over and then deciding for herself which way to go. I've found a lot of enjoyment in quests that way. And if after a while you find you're in a place that you want to engage with the discussion once more, you'll be just as welcome as if you had never left.
Personally I generally read the first couple of pages after an update. And then need to go to work, when I get back the loons in the thread have posted ten pages and thats just too much work so I'll check any OP alerts and then wait for the update proper.

It works for me.
 
So Mathilde is going to be drinking, isn't she?
I hope she uses Van Hal's old flask! It was one of our only mementos of him!

We still wear his witch hunter hat, don't we?
 
This series of safety valves
Speaking of, what happens if a grudge was wrongly attributed? Mistaken identity, not the right facts, people intentionally misleading the dwarfs etc?

More relevant, what if the grudge was already considered impossible to fulfill and you're a Slayer? For example, if you thought K8P is forever gone, became a slayer, and then you get the message that the hold has been retaken?
 
Performing a service to Ranald is among the most probable actions, given the current votes. That cat is getting out of the bag disclosure or no.
The only way the Dwarfs would find out about a properly executed service to Ranald is if they have some Umgi spies infiltrate it.
This is the same Wizard that decided to tell Roswita an account of her time as Spymistress, rather than simply yoinking every connection and network she made that she could pry with Roswita none the wiser and putting them under the jurisdiction of the Grey Order to dispose of as they see fit. The moment Plan Be A Bigger Witch won, Mathilde became a character that isn't exactly your typical Grey Magister. So yes, forgive me if I find the Mathilda is a typical Grey Magister argument to be very unsatisfactory.
I see a big difference between the two. Depriving an Elector Count of most available intelligence resources harms the Empire as a whole. And the Grey College would neither approve nor pay the network cost the way the county of Stirland could.
In principle I like this idea. In practice, it amounts to asking the QM to make our decisions for us, and that's a very slippery slope.
In practice it asks the QM to flip a coin. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it is only occasionally.
On the shenanigans, here is what they are about:

I don't like pointless torture, even for Greenskins, so I voted no to shenanigans.
I agree that torturing sentients is always immoral. But I don't think Mathilde would see it that way. So I voted in favor.
On the other hand, if the Chaos Dwarves have become an active threat, the Dwarves should probably know.
We had no indication of this either way.
Gork/Mork schism, Black Orc involvement and origins, what little she gathered of Chaos Dwarves. Information given without a source is not uncommon in the Grey College. Compartmentalisation and need-to-know.
Nice. I also like that we aren't telling them about Ranald's empowerment. Even if there are plenty of sympathizers among the Grey College, it is still an Imperial intelligence agency, and those are often in opposition to various aspects of Ranald.
The eventual report to the Grey College will not mention her possession.
Does that mean that we will default to trusting the Dawi more than Master Regimand and our own Patriarch? That doesn't sound smart, what with Dawi not being the subtlest bunch.
It kind of is, though. Not in very strongly defined or very obvious way, but it is.
One could call loyalty to our Order and their MO to be a more important indicator of integrity.
You make a Dawi friend and human friend.
If both are actual friends then the human one is more likely to not have some slight break said friendship forever.
It's a bloody mockery of stereotypical professor incapable of a modicum of tact.
That's pretty much the most negative possible interpretation of the professor coupled with the most charitable reading of those Dwarfs. Not something that automatically bears out by reading the text.
If everyone thought that he'd just handle his own stuff, why worship him?
Since when is that how religion works? People don't pray to God to help Him, they pray to God to get helped by Himm or thank Him for stuff he's already done.
Full disclosure of Legend of Ranald's Heist To Steal Mork's Power would have been a cool addition to his legendarium, but oh well.
That could have happened regardless. All it needs is for Mathilde (or a random divinely inspired prophet of Ranald) to make up a fitting legend and spread it among the faithful.
The only thing I can do is provide direct citation for this:
When I read that Teclis seems a 100% in the right. At worst he didn't phrase stuff diplomatically/submissively.
See? See? Word of God agrees with the stay silent voters. /s
have you maybe considered that the people taking Umbridge with the conduct of one side might be doing so for legitimate reasons? rather than just being hypocritical fools?
Voting for one option over another for reasons that have to do with the conduct of certain supporters as opposed to the pros and cons of the options is never right. Even if it happens far too often in modern politics.
There were multiple legitimate reasons to vote for honest disclosure, but even if some stay silent voters were, hypothetically speaking, raging assholes, this would not be one of them.
 
What if the concept of death doesn't properly apply? If Konrad von Carstein killed your son but then got shanked with a Runefang, there's nothing you can do to pursue vengeance but the Grudge lingers because chances are he's not permanently dead. This is part of what made the Drakenhof campaign a big deal - all those Grudges could have been stuck in limbo forever.
But that didn't guarantee the final death of any powerful vampires who lived there?

I mean, destroying their home is some manner of satisfaction and that's good to have, but if we are talking about life-and-death grudges, why would the fall of Drakenhof be enough?
 
I'd argue back but we're in the same boat as we were in the debate where my feelings are irrelevant because I'm outnumbered, outgunned and outshouted, so I'm going to leave it at that and just pray the update doesn't make me want to puke at my own weakness for failing to find the right rhetorical trick to flip the vote.

While I sympathize with the problem of making an argument in an unsupportive internet environment, what you're doing now isn't great either.

You're using the fact that multiple people are arguing against you to strawman all their arguments as shouting you down, instead of considering the actual merit (or lack of merit) of the actual arguments. It's not a very honest arguing tactic. A better approach may be to pick what battles you want, what arguments you want to address. You're not obligated to respond to everything.

Edit: You're actually not obligated to respond to anything. Leaving the argument is a valid action as well. However, it does not mean you were right.
 
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https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/members/boneym.21872/.com/members/boneym.21872/ has been enabling.

Like, let's take the "shenanigans" vote

No one has cope that Dwarf shenanigans is sadistic, meaningless cold blooded torture to humans, even if it's only Greenskins. It's still that kid who skinned the cat for the fun of it.

If our girl is not disturbed and disgusted by the event by the end of it then I'm just going to give up on GM depicting warhammer dwarves probably.
 
I'd argue back but we're in the same boat as we were in the debate where my feelings are irrelevant because I'm outnumbered, outgunned and outshouted, so I'm going to leave it at that and just pray the update doesn't make me want to puke at my own weakness for failing to find the right rhetorical trick to flip the vote.
Dude, it's just a quest. Relax.
 
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/members/boneym.21872/.com/members/boneym.21872/ has been enabling.

Like, let's take the "shenanigans" vote

No one has cope that Dwarf shenanigans is sadistic, meaningless cold blooded torture to humans, even if it's only Greenskins. It's still that kid who skinned the cat for the fun of it.

If our girl is not disturbed and disgusted by the event by the end of it then I'm just going to give up on GM depicting warhammer dwarves probably.
Mathilde enjoys killing people sometimes. Remember that Necromancer she burned?
Sure she still feels guilt and stuff (she felt bad talking to her journeyfanling last update!) but I'm betting my next vote that killing goblins in amusing ways is fine with her.
 
Yes, but Karag Nar isn't within that ring, it's part of it.

I...yes, but (again correct me if I miss something) but even though it's part of that ing and has a 360 view, if you go to the window/wall/opening and look out at Karag Yar, you're not actually going to see the sunset, because the other mountain will be blocking it. So you'd only get to see either sunrise or sunset, if you take up a position on Yar or Nar, but get both in say, Karagril or Karag Mhonar.
 
Welp, hope I was wrong. If I wasn't, I guess I'll make a smug post next update and move on with my life. If I was, I shall endeavour to take the inevitable smug posts from the victorious side with good humour. What else is there to do?
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/members/boneym.21872/.com/members/boneym.21872/ has been enabling.

Like, let's take the "shenanigans" vote

No one has cope that Dwarf shenanigans is sadistic, meaningless cold blooded torture to humans, even if it's only Greenskins. It's still that kid who skinned the cat for the fun of it.

If our girl is not disturbed and disgusted by the event by the end of it then I'm just going to give up on GM depicting warhammer dwarves probably.
You should probably just move on then, since Greenskins being literally evil on a racial basis, and despised and slaughtered by the "good guys", is pretty basic by Warhammer standards.
 
Speaking of, what happens if a grudge was wrongly attributed? Mistaken identity, not the right facts, people intentionally misleading the dwarfs etc?

Make restitution to the wronged, and record two Grudges. The original one, and one against whoever mislead you. If the fault is a Dwarf's, they'd have to make restitution. If that's impossible, they'd have to take the Slayer Oath.

More relevant, what if the grudge was already considered impossible to fulfill and you're a Slayer? For example, if you thought K8P is forever gone, became a slayer, and then you get the message that the hold has been retaken?

They swore an oath to die. No take-backs.

I...yes, but (again correct me if I miss something) but even though it's part of that ing and has a 360 view, if you go to the window/wall/opening and look out at Karag Yar, you're not actually going to see the sunset, because the other mountain will be blocking it. So you'd only get to see either sunrise or sunset, if you take up a position on Yar or Nar, but get both in say, Karagril or Karag Mhonar.

Oh, I see what you mean. Kind of depends what you mean by sunset. I'd argue that the sun setting behind a mountain isn't any less a sunset than it setting behind the horizon, but there are sunset purists that would argue otherwise.
 
So if Mathilde did turn that room into her wizard sanctuary, would we install a telescope for watching the rest of the Karak from our home?
 
cough War of the Beard/War of Vengance cough

Well the reason the dwarves went to war ultimate was actually caused by the High Elves though? The reason the war occurred is that they shaved the envoys beard off and basically massively insulted the Dwarves that were asking reasonable questions, yes the cause for the Envoy heading to Ulthaun wasn't because of the High Elves but that doesn't change the fact that the Elves deserved to get their teeth kicked in over it. Granted Malekith deserves it even more.
 
Rule 2 - Dehumanization is not acceptable
Mathilde enjoys killing people sometimes. Remember that Necromancer she burned?
Sure she still feels guilt and stuff (she felt bad talking to her journeyfanling last update!) but I'm betting my next vote that killing goblins in amusing ways is fine with her.
Also the Dwarfs in at least total war warhammer and potentially in normal cannon have done things like tied goblins to boulders and launched them with a catapult.

The Greenskins hardly count as a normal species anyway given how the exist to kill stuff instead of just survive like most forms of life anyway.
 
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