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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Mopman43 said:
In 2nd edition Realms of Sorcery, Sigmarites and Ulricans are lumped together several times as having lead persecution of magic-users.

That magic guild is very much something exclusive to 4th edition- 2nd edition has a magic guild in Middenheim, but it was founded after Magnus (the exact circumstances and nature of it's founding depending on if you're reading Ashes of Middenheim or Realms of Sorcery)
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Reminds me of reading 8th Edition Dwarves Army Book where they talk about the Norse Dwarves like they're still alive and then reading 8th Edition Warriors of Chaos and having Valmir Aesling explicitly destroy the Norse Dwarves more than a hundred years ago.

Warhammer as usual.
 
Codex said:
Reminds me of reading 8th Edition Dwarves Army Book where they talk about the Norse Dwarves like they're still alive and then reading 8th Edition Warriors of Chaos and having Valmir Aesling explicitly destroy the Norse Dwarves more than a hundred years ago.

Warhammer as usual.
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And then there's the 8th edition rulebook, as I've brought up before.
In recent years, only one army has made the long journey from the northern hold of Kraka Drak all the way down to Karaz-a-Karak. Seeking to forge a path straight through the mountains, the Engineers of Kraka Drak converted their revolutionary 'tractator engine' from gigantic rock grinder to a mobile garrison, fitting it with multiple Organ Guns and Steam Cannons. The Engineers carved a bloody path through the Orc tribes that infested the mountains, though they ran so short of coal that the motive power was often provided by goblinoid corpses set aflame by potent liquor.
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BurnNote said:
I don't think Hedgewise use Ulgu, as such. IIRC, it's petty magic, so it doesn't have the nature of a wind.
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This is not the case. If Hedgewise only casted Petty Magic, then they would not be defying Teclisean principles. But they do defy Teclisean principles, because as I previously noted, they can cast spells all the way up to Fiendishly Complex:
Codex said:
The spell list is under the spoiler:
Relatively Simple:
Invigorate: The Adrenaline Spell. Using a live snail, the user fools the body into feeling fresh and alert, giving a boost to movement, agility and intelligence to represent boosted reflexes. After one minute, the spell ends and the user needs to tough it out or suffer a caffeine crash as their body rebels against the effort it was forced to endure.

Purify: Using a reed filled with fresh toad spit, the user can purify any non magical contaminants within a target receptacle, including poisons and pollution from a liquid, rendering it drinkable.

Dagger of the Art: Using a thorn cut when Mannisleb is new, you craft a wooden dagger. The weapon is magical and deals significant additional damage to spirits and "Chaos Tainted Creatures". The Dagger lasts for roughly a minute, but you can struggle to make it last a bit longer.

Part the Branches: Using the ash of a hawthorn branch that has been burnt at noon, you can see into the "Spirit World". What this means is largely up to the GM (the literal words of the book), but at minimum it allows one to see Daemons, spirits, as well as invisible and ethereal creatures. This spell lasts for 1 hour per "Magic Level" (max 4 hours, although Hedgewise cap out at Magic 3 so more like 3 hours).

Moderately Complicated:
Protection Pouch: Using a small leather pouch made from the flesh of a bat, the user creates a few small purple herbs. Whoever holds all of these herbs have a bonus to resisting magic, poison and disease for as long as it lasts. The herbs last for 1 week per magic level.

The Ousting: Using a spherical stone buried for a month within a fresh stream, you can banish one spirit or Daemon 6 yards to its place of origin. The creature may be able to resist, but if it works then they're banished for 1d10 years per Magic level (max 30 years).

Haletha's Joy: Using a rod of poplar polished with beeswax on Sonnstill, the user can bless a couple. Assuming the partners are fertile, conception is guaranteed. Lasts for 1 day per magic level or until it is used up.

Sightstep: Using the wings of a dragonfly that has been killed with a silver pin, the user obscures themself with the Hedge. Individuals with the "magical sense" skill get nothing from one who has cast sightstep. Daemons, Spirits and ethereal creatures find it much harder to detect whoever has cast the spell.

Nepenthe: Using a fingernail from the individual the target wishes to forget, the user can create magic smokey liquid to fill a small cup. If a willing individual drinks from this cup, they will forget one individual (that they want to forget) and everything involved with that individual. The spell is permanent.

Silvertide: Using a lodestone dipped in honey, the user attracts wealth. They can get money from the ground, more money than expected from deep pockets, from nooks and crannies, behind people's ears and so on. This spell lasts for 6 hours. However, if the user fails in casting the spell, they immediately suffer a miscast. If they miscast while failing to cast the spell, the miscast is worse as it compounds on it.

Wyrd Ward: Using a hair from the warded witch, the caster touches an opposing Witch and they become cursed for one hour per magic level. Every time the Witch attempts to cast a spell, they must resist a near irresistible compulsion to stop casting, or else their spell is wasted. This only works on Witches.

Fiendishly Complex:
Nostrum: Using a toe or finger from the target, the caster produces a greenish liquid from their fingertip. When the target drinks from it, they will be immediately cured of one disease.

Myrkride: Using the freshly boiled heart of a mouse, the user steps into the hedge, the border between the spirit and material worlds. The caster becomes ethereal for 10 seconds per magic level, and can extend it with some effort. While ethereal, the user is insubstantial, weightless and completely silent. The user can pass through solid objects and may not be affected by non magical means, and has the ability to directly interact with Daemons, spirits and other ethereal creatures.

Fellstave: Using a cup of blood drawn when Morrslieb was full, the user may enchant an area so that any creatures of a specific race that are within a hundred yards are endlessly compelled to move away from it within its duration. The race specification lump in all Daemons together, and strangely enough lumps in Skaven along with Beastmen. The caster must learn a different variation of the spell for each individual race they want to exclude. The spell lasts for 1 month per magic level.

Lovelock: Using a lock of hair from the target, the user creates a love potion. If the target drinks it, they fall in love with the first person they see of their race and of the "sex they find attractive" (this is the wording of the book, I'm of a mind to use gender myself). The exact extremes of "in love" are determined by the GM (book's wording). Spell lasts until midnight.

Hedgewalk: Using a bone that has been buried beneath a hedgerow for 1 month, the user sends their spirit into the Hedge. The body is considered helpless while the soul can wander. The soul is still limited by physical boundaries, but is completely invisible and silent to anyone in the physical realm. Spirits, ethereal creatures and Daemons are visible and may be interacted with. The soul cannot interact with things in the physical realm. The spell lasts for one hour per magic level, but can end prematurely by touching the physical body with the spirit.
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The only level of magic they're incapable of is Battle Magic. Hedgewise can get as high as Magic 3, which is the same level as a Magister of the Colleges in the RPG.
 
Codex said:
This is not the case. If Hedgewise only casted Petty Magic, then they would not be defying Teclisean principles. But they do defy Teclisean principles, because as I previously noted, they can cast spells all the way up to Fiendishly Complex:

The only level of magic they're incapable of is Battle Magic. Hedgewise can get as high as Magic 3, which is the same level as a Magister of the Colleges in the RPG.
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Not to mention the new ones that came out (that I listed a few pages back). That very much look like they are drawing on The winds.

Might not be quest canon, but there is so few Hedge spells that Boney might use some.
 
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I just had a thought about Kurtis... @Boney did we see any arcane marks of Ulgu on him at a glance? I ask because if he has such marks then his soul is part Ulgu and that might say something of note about Hedge-craft

My theory for the moment is that hedge magic is in fact a form of semi-divine Ulhu magic, a kind of sorcery that makes use of gods/spirits, which would explain a bunch of things:
  1. How they can do things which are not wholly on brand with Ulgu
  2. Why the Grey Coelleges did not bring that lore in wholly,because they are of course secular and do not have access to land spirits anyway
  3. The fact that the ones in Ostland at least are allies of the Hags and do not have male casters, there is a kinship of lore and maybe even a transfer of it between the two
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
Not to mention the new ones that came out (that I listed a few pages back). That very much look like they are drawing on The winds.

Might not be quest canon, but there is so few Hedge spells that Boney might use some.
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Oh yeah, I haven't given my thoughts on those spells. I think the Witch spells are excellent 10/10 for providing content and flavor to a nonexistent lore set for the ignored Witches. The Hedge spells seem more tuned towards the spirituality and kind of feels like Hag Magic, but there are similarities to the existing spells.

Cleanslate feels like sort of a combination between Nostrum and Protection Pouch. Greater range of effects it can heal. Fertilise feels like Haletha's Joy except instead of guaranteeing the fertility of a couple it guarantees the fertility of a field, which is kind of funny because Jade Magic can do both in a single spell (Spring Bloom). Geistbane feels like Fellstave and Dagger of the Art combined except it only works on Spirits compared to the wider effect of the previous two spells.

Kindle's ability to purify spoiled/poisoned food strikes me as similar to Purify albeit different. Onerion is a new effect, but following the patterns of Nepenthe and Lovelock I can definitely see that kind of effect being possible. Trankraft honestly feels a lot like Invigorate, even down to the caffeine crash, except it seems to have a longer duration? Woecharm is a bit like Wyrd Ward except it works against anyone not just Witches and it has a different activation condition (being that it has to be willingly worn).

Then there are the new effects. Badwill, Bonesetter, Fetterfetch, Stout Spirit and Godspakt. I like them, and I especially like Gospakt. The only weird thing to me is that a lot of the "moving through the Hedge" stuff isn't a thing for some reason. Part the Branches, Ousting, Sightstep, Myrkride and Hedgewalk aren't there. Feels like the spirit walking part just doesn't exist, they only interact with spirits like the Hag Witches do.
 
Dark as Silver said:
More stories about the Ulrican cannonneer who sees his religious duty as working towards fixing that, please.
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That is actually one of the ideas I had all the way back during the first dynasty Quest over on SB that I never used for anything because I don't actually produce any content. An Ulrican College of Applied Physics that makes full use of religious fervor and the settings occasional cartoonishness to fuck shit up.
 
Ah OK, so no Ulgu marks, in that case it could be that he is casting from a wholly different source sort of like an elf, if the other lore is much simpler than Ulgu and he basically uses cardinal magic. He would have to be a prodigy in that case but it is not out of the realm of possibility at the very least. I mean as far as Mathilde knows there is only one of him and 'being able to cast a witch lore and Ulgu at the same time through sheer skill' would be no more incredible than the bullshit we have pulled off. He is a lord Magister and has been such for longer than Mathilde, maybe even for longer than she has been alive.
 
I see people are discussing the Hedgefolk, which of course reminds me of Halétha and the issue of Ranald's daughters. So long as we are (kind of) on the subject of Ranald's daughters, let it be known that I have written up a 2000 word post on the possiblity of The Lady being Ranald's daughter, which I will unleash on the thread at a time of my choosing. Be afraid.
 
DragonParadox said:
Ah OK, so no Ulgu marks, in that case it could be that he is casting from w wholly different source sort of like an elf, if the other lore is much simpler than Ulgu and he basically uses cardinal magic. He would have to be a prodigy in that case but it is not out of the realm of possibility at the very least. I mean as far as Mathilde knows there is only one of him and 'being able to cast a witch lore and Ulgu at the same time through sheer skill' would be no more incredible than the bullshit we have pulled off. He is a lord Magister and has been such for longer than Mathilde, maybe even for longer than she has been alive.
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No plainly visible Ulgu marks.
 
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Isn't it rare for someone to be made a magister without having at least one arcane mark? Hard to imagine someone making LM without any.
 
Jreengus said:
Isn't it rare for someone to be made a magister without having at least one arcane mark? Hard to imagine someone making LM without any.
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This is what Boney said on the topic:
Boney said:
Arcane Marks aren't mandatory for reaching Magister, but they do help. The Colleges still have mystery cults in their DNA and if you're metaphysically locked in to the Wind they have a monopoly on, you're a lot less likely to be running off with their secrets.
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Not mandatory, but preferable, at least for Magisters.
 
Jreengus said:
Isn't it rare for someone to be made a magister without having at least one arcane mark? Hard to imagine someone making LM without any.
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Normally yeah, but in this case the Grey College was trying to infiltrate the Hedgefolk, they had already waived 'loyalty' for their own purposes and it is not like Kurtis would have been crazy enough to try to switch to the Lights or something when he had so many balls in the air
 
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mathymancer said:
I see people are discussing the Hedgefolk, which of course reminds me of Halétha and the issue of Ranald's daughters. So long as we are (kind of) on the subject of Ranald's daughters, let it be known that I have written up a 2000 word post on the possiblity of The Lady being Ranald's daughter, which I will unleash on the thread at a time of my choosing. Be afraid.
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Please go on, threaten me with a good time.
 
DragonParadox said:
Normally yeah, but in this case the Grey College was trying to infiltrate the Hedgefolk, they had already waived 'loyalty' for their own purposes and it is not like Kurtis would have been crazy enough to try to switch to the Lights or something when he had so many balls in the air
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Not sure if loyalty was waved or just tweaked a bit.

Mathilde is a devoted Ranaldite - one who is actively supporting keeping a high level charade with enormous dynastic implications for at the bare minimum Reikland if not the Empire. At the same time she's been very loyal to the Colleges in general and the Grey College in particular.

Kurtis might be in the same situation of divided loyalties.

Edit: Specifically on the magic bit: Kurtis' intro in the Grey College pocket dimension heavily suggests that he's reconciled Grey and Hedge magic in his paradigm.
 
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Zero Gravitas said:
Specifically on the magic bit: Kurtis' intro in the Grey College pocket dimension heavily suggests that he's reconciled Grey and Hedge magic in his paradigm.
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A while ago I've speculated on the nature of the Grey College liminal space and its relation to the Hedge. The Hedge is supposed to be about boundaries, and Ulgu is a wind of boundaries among other things, so I think it's no coincidence that the Hedgefolk are related to the Grey out of all the Colleges, and it makes sense for the two paradigms to be at least somewhat compatible.
 
Zero Gravitas said:
Not sure if loyalty was waved or just tweaked a bit.

Mathilde is a devoted Ranaldite - one who is actively supporting keeping a high level charade with enormous dynastic implications for at the bare minimum Reikland if not the Empire. At the same time she's been very loyal to the Colleges in general and the Grey College in particular.

Kurtis might be in the same situation of divided loyalties.

Edit: Specifically on the magic bit: Kurtis' intro in the Grey College pocket dimension heavily suggests that he's reconciled Grey and Hedge magic in his paradigm.
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Talk is cheap. You could present the pocket dimension from a mixed Shayllan and Horned Rat PoV if you really wanted to, does not mean you have some sort of arcane insight.

As far as I can see if we make a tree of it the options are as follows:

1)Kurtis can cast both Hedge and Shadow magic in the elven system
A. He has arcane marks, which would strongly imply that Hedge magic is linked to Ulgu because someone with a soul made mostly of Ulgu could cast it
B. He has no arcane marks, which means the Grey Order must have been more lax on the loyalty test aspect of Arcane Marks and 'locking in' of magic
2) Kurtis can only cast shadow magic
A. But he uses that to fake certain hedge spells, maybe even creating Ulgu spells in his own personal paradign that allow him to sort of kind of pretend he is still a hedge mage
B. And the hedgefolk are fine with it since they feel like they have his cultural loyalty
3) Kurtis can only cast Hedge magic but the College raises him up to the rank of LM anyway for some reason

Of these I think we can discount 3 right off the bat, even if everyone was in on it the task of hiding that one of your Grey Lord Magisterscannot cast Shadow Magic is simply too big and too likely to blow up in everyone's face

Among the reminder
  1. 2B would indicate that the hedgefolk are more comfortable with Grey Wizards than others have feared,
  2. 2A is the most in line with 'known' metaphysics, though I do not think it likely that the Hedgefolk are so easy to fool, especially as some of them have divine backing
  3. 1A says interesting things about the relationships between arcane and witch lores
  4. 1B would indicate a prodigy , which is not that hard to credit because again Lord Magister
Do you guys see anything I missed?
 
DragonParadox said:
Talk is cheap. You could present the pocket dimension from a mixed Shayllan and Horned Rat PoV if you really wanted to, does not mean you have some sort of arcane insight.

As far as I can see if we make a tree of it the options are as follows:

1)Kurtis can cast both Hedge and Shadow magic in the elven system
A. He has arcane marks, which would strongly imply that Hedge magic is linked to Ulgu because someone with a soul made mostly of Ulgu could cast it
B. He has no arcane marks, which means the Grey Order must have been more lax on the loyalty test aspect of Arcane Marks and 'locking in' of magic
2) Kurtis can only cast shadow magic
A. But he uses that to fake certain hedge spells, maybe even creating Ulgu spells in his own personal paradign that allow him to sort of kind of pretend he is still a hedge mage
B. And the hedgefolk are fine with it since they feel like they have his cultural loyalty
3) Kurtis can only cast Hedge magic but the College raises him up to the rank of LM anyway for some reason

Of these I think we can discount 3 right off the bat, even if everyone was in on it the task of hiding that one of your Grey Lord Magisterscannot cast Shadow Magic is simply too big and too likely to blow up in everyone's face

Among the reminder
  1. 2B would indicate that the hedgefolk are more comfortable with Grey Wizards than others have feared,
  2. 2A is the most in line with 'known' metaphysics, though I do not think it likely that the Hedgefolk are so easy to fool, especially as some of them have divine backing
  3. 1A says interesting things about the relationships between arcane and witch lores
  4. 1B would indicate a prodigy , which is not that hard to credit because again Lord Magister
Do you guys see anything I missed?
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Or he can cast both without the Elven system, because the Elven system is not the end all be all of Magic. Teclis' response to seeing Divine Magic clearly destroy his paradigm in front of him was to say it doesn't exist. None of his students believe him.
 
Codex said:
Or he can cast both without the Elven system, because the Elven system is not the end all be all of Magic. Teclis' response to seeing Divine Magic clearly destroy his paradigm in front of him was to say it doesn't exist. None of his students believe him.
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I mean the elven system accounts for the possibility of learning two lores, elves do it all the time. I do not see how it could be 'without the elven system'.

It should also be noted that what the Colleges call the 'elven system' is 'hurried instructions on how to make battle mages as quickly as possibile on the eve of war'. For all we know elves understand Divine Magic just fine, the only thing we know they do not understand is the chissel-hands approach to magic, but you can be a priest without divine marks and a wizard without arcane marks.
 
DragonParadox said:
I mean the elven system accounts for the possibility of learning two lores, elves do it all the time. I do not see how it could be 'without the elven system'.

It should also be noted that what the Colleges call the 'elven system' is 'hurried instructions on how to make battle mages as quickly as possibile on the eve of war'. For all we know elves understand Divine Magic just fine, the only thing we know they do not understand is the chissel-hands approach to magic, but you can be a priest without divine marks and a wizard without arcane marks.
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The Divine Magic isn't real thing is something Boney said that Teclis told the Colleges:
Boney said:
Literally everyone knows that Teclisean theory is not a valid master theory, they've known it since the first time Teclis said that Divine Magic isn't real. The Colleges aren't anywhere near having a complete metaphysical framework for the Vitae to disprove. They know there's mystery edge cases everywhere and their priority is not finding a way to work them into the model, the priority is to stop those edge cases from eating people.

Or to put it another way: magical science is at the point where they're trying to figure out what gravity even is, not at the point where they're trying to figure out where the fuck all the dark matter is.
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I recommend you start considering the possibility that the Elves aren't the infallible overlords of magic and understand everything there is to know about it.
 
Codex said:
The Divine Magic isn't real thing is something Boney said that Teclis told the Colleges:

I recommend you start considering the possibility that the Elves aren't the infallible overlords of magic and understand everything there is to know about it.
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We have had this conversation before and it comes down to what language was Teclis speaking and for that matter was he actually telling the truth or saying lies to children because he did not have the time to tell any wider truths? Just because Teclis once said something does not make it the whole of what he knows, never mind the whole of what all elves know.
 
DragonParadox said:
We have had this conversation before and it comes down to what language was Teclis speaking and for that matter was he actually telling the truth or saying lies to children because he did not have the time to tell any wider truths? Just because Teclis once said something does not make it the whole of what he knows, never mind the whole of what all elves know.
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I always find it baffling how much trust you place in the Elves' knowledge. One could mistake you for speaking about a group of gods in the mortal realm considering how much you hype them up.
 
Codex said:
I always find it baffling how much trust you place in the Elves' knowledge. One could mistake you for speaking about a group of gods in the mortal realm considering how much you hype them up.
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They are the closest we have to a systematic explication of magic, I mean sure actual gods might know more but they are not about to tell us. By contrast what else do you have, the cults which are inherently hyper focused on one aspect of magic, which is to say their god, and who have an institutional culture of secrecy, the runesmtiths are just the same

At the end of the day it is to me analogous to the question of 'who do you trust more to explain the world Ionian natural philosophers or mystery cults?' I go with the former, because an absence of secrecy and taboos means it is easier to build a knowledge base, their system might not be perfect but at the very least it is a system that attempts to explain the wider world.
 
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