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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Jreengus said:
Doesn't windherder have the potential to break Teclisian theory too? Given our charter you could say her job is to unexplain magic.
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Not really? It does novel things but it remains within known theories.
Mathilde is just very good at working near casters and spells from other schools to avoid dhar forming or spells otherwise interfering with each other.
 
Jreengus said:
Doesn't windherder have the potential to break Teclisian theory too? Given our charter you could say her job is to unexplain magic.
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it doesn't, windherder can be explained by Teclisian theory.

the only thing that breaks Teclisian theory, and possibly elven theory, is AV.

magic postulate 1: since the creation of the gates, magic can only exist in this world naturally as the 8 winds or as dhur. high magic being an artificial and unstable state.
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
it doesn't, windherder can be explained by Teclisian theory.

the only thing that breaks Teclisian theory, and possibly elven theory, is AV.

magic postulate 1: since the creation of the gates, magic can only exist in this world naturally as the 8 winds or as dhur. high magic being an artificial and unstable state.
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Valmond said:
Not really? It does novel things but it remains within known theories.
Mathilde is just very good at working near casters and spells from other schools to avoid dhar forming or spells otherwise interfering with each other.
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Boney has already stated that it's considered impossible under Teclisean theory:
BoneyM said:
I don't think that it's unreasonable that you can't neatly chart a course in advance through something that is completely unprecedented and in fact considered impossible under Teclisean theory.
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Not the first time it happened, and not the last time Teclisean theory gets broken.
 
Valmond said:
Not really? It does novel things but it remains within known theories.
Mathilde is just very good at working near casters and spells from other schools to avoid dhar forming or spells otherwise interfering with each other.
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Jyn Ryvia said:
it doesn't, windherder can be explained by Teclisian theory.

the only thing that breaks Teclisian theory, and possibly elven theory, is AV.
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Word of Boney:
Jyn Ryvia said:
@chocolote12 I cant do it. I'm trying to think out what is interesting but not broken but there isn't any information to work with,

Windherder is not well explained, not intuitive, and boney refuses to explain how they would see the general interactions behaving. (we didn't even know that it wasn't Skyrim style until wayyyyy later.)

the only way would be to literally vote to bash two winds together in an enchantment to see what boney says it does. because there is no way of knowing what they are thinking about it.

you know what, I'm just not going to mention windherder again unless we are actually doing something with it. the way it has been implemented just annoys me.
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BoneyM said:
I don't think that it's unreasonable that you can't neatly chart a course in advance through something that is completely unprecedented and in fact considered impossible under Teclisean theory. It's rather grating that for 2500 pages I've had people look at the price-tag of one AP to get a better idea of what it would allow and decide to complain that their lack of knowledge is a fault of implementation instead of a result of thread priorities.
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I believe the thing "considered impossible under Teclisean theory" is for two winds to coexist very closely, and even interact directly for synergistic effect (as in the hypothetical Dammerlichtreiter's Thurible), without curdling into Dhar or using the techniques of High Magic.
 
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BoneyM said:
Kragg and Thorek, Ljiljana and the other Ice Witches, Heidi and Kasmir and the Ar-Ulric, Kurtis Krammovitch, Cadaeth...
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I don't know why I'm surprised that Kurtis knows Hedgecraft, of course he would. I somehow assumed he just adopted the College's standard casting, but it makes perfect sense why someone raised and trained as a Hedgewise would use it. Must be a neat advantage to combine both disciplines together.
 
BoneyM said:
Mathilde personally knows like twenty people who do things that are impossible under Teclisean theory.
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but what about greater elven theory?

That magic can exist in a stable state in this world that's not the winds has to put into question some very fundamental assumptions to the system.

ice magic? humans using two winds? elements? impossible, but in the 'it must work, we just need to figure out where we didn't carry the two!'

but AV is closer to 'in an edge case: 2 + 2= 5 : it has fundamael, a basic understanding of the world, implications

maybe not on a practical level for a long time, if ever when creating magic systems, spells, rituals and enchants. but it's still a case of 'everything we thought was true now needs to be questioned!'

I would almost say it would be similar to the first steps to Non-Euclidean geometry theories in how it just goes 'the base assumptions were wrong' except there is actual evidence to dump in front of the naysayers.
 
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Codex said:
I don't know why I'm surprised that Kurtis knows Hedgecraft, of course he would. I somehow assumed he just adopted the College's standard casting, but it makes perfect sense why someone raised and trained as a Hedgewise would use it. Must be a neat advantage to combine both disciplines together.
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If they can be combined. Might be incompatible
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
but what about greater elven theory?

That magic can exist in a stable state in this world that's not the winds has to put into question some very fundamental assumptions to the system.

ice magic? humans using two winds? elements? impossible, but in the 'it most work, we just need to figure out where we didn't carry the two!'

but AV is closer to 'in an edge case: 2 + 2= 5

maybe not on a practical level for a long time, if every when creating magic systems, spells, rituals and enchants. but it's still a case of 'everything we thought was true now needs to be questioned!'

I would almost say it would be similar to the first steps to Non-Euclidean geometry theories in how it just goes 'the assumptions were wrong' except there is actual evidence to dump in front of the naysayers.
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Alternatively, Teclisean theory (and by extension, greater elven theory) is incomplete and/or breaks down under certain circumstances.
 
kingreaper said:
If they can be combined. Might be incompatible
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Even if they can't be combined as in shoved together, combine would still be correct in the sense that he has access to two different disciplines that widens the scope of his abilities and solutions. Maybe some things are easier with standard Grey Magic, and others would be more easily dealt with through Hedgecraft. They do cover different niches.
 
NSMS said:
Alternatively, Teclisean theory (and by extension, greater elven theory) is incomplete and/or breaks down under certain circumstances.
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This: there is another state of magic that can exist and be (relatively) stable in the world, possibly a third if gas, liquid, solid, dynamic can apply.

that a very fundamental head-scratcher at the high academic level, if not at the practical level.
 
NSMS said:
Alternatively, Teclisean theory (and by extension, greater elven theory) is incomplete and/or breaks down under certain circumstances.
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Teclisean theory isn't great but unless we meet a Slann we probably aren't getting a better magical theory without a ton of work. While there are other magical theories that work they generally either don't explain or are provably wrong. So yeah Teclisean theory isn't perfect but we almost certainly aren't getting better in character and even if we do it will have plenty of holes and strings that only loosely connect.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
but what about greater elven theory?

That magic can exist in a stable state in this world that's not the winds has to put into question some very fundamental assumptions to the system.

ice magic? humans using two winds? elements? impossible, but in the 'it most work, we just need to figure out where we didn't carry the two!'

but AV is closer to 'in an edge case: 2 + 2= 5

maybe not on a practical level for a long time, if every when creating magic systems, spells, rituals and enchants. but it's still a case of 'everything we thought was true now needs to be questioned!'

I would almost say it would be similar to the first steps to Non-Euclidean geometry theories in how it just goes 'the assumptions were wrong' except there is actual evidence to dump in front of the naysayers.
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Literally everyone knows that Teclisean theory is not a valid master theory, they've known it since the first time Teclis said that Divine Magic isn't real. The Colleges aren't anywhere near having a complete metaphysical framework for the Vitae to disprove. They know there's mystery edge cases everywhere and their priority is not finding a way to work them into the model, the priority is to stop those edge cases from eating people.

Or to put it another way: magical science is at the point where they're trying to figure out what gravity even is, not at the point where they're trying to figure out where the fuck all the dark matter is.
 
Personally, I suspect the big flaw with Teclisean/elven theory is that it's too elf-centric; developed by elves, for elves, and using elves exclusively for its examples of magic-users. The result is a paradigm that matches elves damn near perfectly, but that starts to run into errors when you try to apply it to other races because... well, they're not elves.
 
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One of the biggest problems with any unified magical theory is that Teclis was basically the main attempt to actually make one. The elementalists tried and made a decent attempt but we know that they aren't actually right even if their magic still works. Divine magic is outside of the wind based view but they don't even really view what they are doing as magic and just lay it all on their god which doesn't exactly help with figuring out what they are actually doing.
 
Codex said:
Even if they can't be combined as in shoved together, combine would still be correct in the sense that he has access to two different disciplines that widens the scope of his abilities and solutions. Maybe some things are easier with standard Grey Magic, and others would be more easily dealt with through Hedgecraft. They do cover different niches.
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Depends if Hedgecraft is actually Ulgu - or if it's like Elementalism and is ultimately different even when it looks similar
 
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