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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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It's also reasonable to have 'Agnostic' refer to a different question in a world where there are definitely gods. For instance it could refer to the question "Are the gods something qualitatively different from apparitions and daemons?"
 
I wonder… what if Kadon was the historical Kadon, and the scrolls really are ancient?

see it turns out he isn't an incredibly skilled Amber Wizard. He's an Amber Dragon that was very bored and decided to go play mortal for a number of decades. And when he got bored he just turned back and left. And then he did it again more recently for the same reason.

Maybe he pulls it once every couple millennia, like taking a long weekend to goof off at the zoo.
 
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Ekzentric Lohner said:
Close, but not quite. Atheism is the disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of god(s) - this is sometimes separated into "strong" atheism, the affirmative belief that gods do not exist, and "weak" atheism, which is simply lack of an affirmative belief that any do. Agnosticism is the disbelief or lack of belief in the provability of the existence of god(s), a related but distinct issue.
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I think you're drawing on definitions that might be more aptly described as philosophical terms d'art; definitions which, moreover, may be (and indeed often are) contested by different philosophers. As this isn't really the time or place for extended philosophical discourse, I'm thus limiting myself to dictionary definitions.
 
kingreaper said:
It's also reasonable to have 'Agnostic' refer to a different question in a world where there are definitely gods. For instance it could refer to the question "Are the gods something qualitatively different from apparitions and daemons?"
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There's also the variation of "it doesn't matter if the gods exist or not, because either way they don't deserve our worship."

Exhibit A: Sigmar
 
I'm an atheist myself, so I can appreciate the impulse to clarify one's own beliefs, but I'm going to say that the fine points of atheism vs agnosticism/ weak vs strong belief/ disbelief / the nature of epistemic certainty are very much off topic for this thread, and indeed largely irrelevant for the Warhammer Fantasy setting as a whole.
 
Fayhem said:
I think you're drawing on definitions that might be more aptly described as philosophical terms d'art; definitions which, moreover, may be (and indeed often are) contested by different philosophers. As this isn't really the time or place for extended philosophical discourse, I'm thus limiting myself to dictionary definitions.
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If you are going to get pedantic about the definition of words, you can't really complain if someone gets even more pedantic than you. He who lives by the pedantry, etc.
 
Made edits to account for @Fayhem's corrections. Upgraded Hubert to Esteemed Duckling because I felt bad about it. Changed Johann's description to say Inflexible magic and added areligious alongside agnostic because I'm sure people can get the jist of what I mean.

I'm in the planning stages of a much larger project now, and I have to thank @picklepikkl for his amazing work with recording the actions taken on which turn. I like to think I have a decent memory and I'm definitely hyperfixated, but as much as I try I'm not a literal codex. Lots of trawling through updates to look for stuff, and I'm sure there's things I missed in thread because there are 10k pages and I'm pretty sure I haven't read them all.

If anyone's interested in helping out, I'm currently looking for the names and descriptions of the Empire's leaders in Divided Loyalties and the Emperor's Council. Here's what I got so far:

Emperor Luitpold von Holschwig-Schliestein
Empress Heidi Haupt-Anderssen
Crown Prince Mandred
Graf Otto von Bitternach, Chamberlain of the Seal/Diplomatic advisor
Chancellor of the Imperial Treasury, Friedrich von Schlafebild/Financial advisor
Graf Boris X Todbringer, Elector Count of Middenland
Grand Duke Feurbach, Elector Count of Talabecland (Helmut?)
Chancellor Hertwig, Elector Count of Ostermark (Wolfram?)
Roswita Van Hal, Elector Countess of Stirland
Grand Count Konstantin von Liebwitz of Wissenland
Mad Count of Averland Marius Leitdorf
Elector Count of Nordland ??? (Theoderic Gausser???)
Grand Prince Maximillian von Königswald (?), Elector Count of Ostland
Grand Baron Ludenhof of Hochland (Aldebrand?)
Ar Ulric Carl Valgeir
Elder of the Moot Hisme Stoutheart
Former Elector Count of Stirland, Abelheim Van Hal
As you can see, there's quite a bit of confusion, mostly because Boney rightly does not have to worldbuild every detail of the Empire when Mathilde barely interacts with it at large and she's mostly focused on her immediate surroundings and her home province. Here's the details of what I'm looking for, if anyone has an answer, hit me up but I think some of these answers don't exist because they don't need to at the moment.

The former Empress's name is unknown to me. The names of the Supreme Law Lord, Chamberlain of the Imperial House, Chancellor of the Reikland, and the Reikmarshal, who are parts of the Emperor's State council are also unknown, probably because we haven't met them. Grand Theogonist and the Arch Lectors' names are unkown. Supreme Patriarch is accounted for in the College post so I don't feel the need to list him again. Boris, Konstantin and Roswita are the only Electors other than Hisme, Carl and the Emperor to be fully namedropped, so I'm doing some speculation with the others. Feurbach and Hertwig were mentioned as possibilities for gaining the position as Emperor if Luitpold died, but that's their last names so I'm not sure if they're Helmut and Wolfram, the canonical ones. Wolfram only gets his position 2485 IC so maybe it's not the same here.

The Leitdorfs are mentioned in the Hochlander's interview in a manner that indicates they're ruling Averland, and according to 2E realms of Sorcery the line of succession goes like this: Ludmilla von Alptraum>Marius Leitdorf>Marlene von Alptraum, so I'm assuming the Mad Count rules Averland. I'm making an assumption that the Ludenhofs are ruling Hochland, but I think it's a fairly safe one. Maximillian von Königswald is the canonical Count of Ostland up to 2502 so I'm also making an assumption there that I'm less sure about, but I know that it's definitely not Valmir von Raukov. Despite us being involved in Nordland, I don't think we ever caught the Grand Baron's name? I somehow doubt it's the canonical Theoderic Gausser, but I don't know who his predecessor even is.

I'd appreciate the help if anyone here knows something I don't.
 
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Andres110 said:
Has Paranoth been Supreme Patriarch yet? Apparently he invents the Wheel of Magic during his tenure. Weird to think that wheel might not actually exist yet.
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Paranoth was the supreme patriarch before Alaric.

The twenty-fourth Supreme Patriarch will be decided today, and that again shows the influence of Supreme Patriarch Alric. Volans served two terms, but at the time was considered the second Supreme Patriarch after Teclis, rather than second and third. But though Alric was stripped of the leadership of the Colleges in the aftermath of the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels, he retained leadership of the Light Order, and then in 2438 he defeated Felip Iyrtu of the Amethysts and once more became the Supreme Patriarch. But record-keeping decided it was untidy to have the 12th Supreme Patriarch be head of the Colleges once more after the 13th, 14th, and 15th had reigned, and the numbering system was tweaked to count individual terms rather than unique Patriarchs, making Alric the 14th and 18th. And then, after being defeated by Paranoth the Wanderer and then reclaiming it again, the 20th.

Dragomas has been the 21st, 22nd, and 23rd Supreme Patriarchs, making him tied with Alric for most terms and the only Supreme Patriarch to serve three consecutive terms. When leadership is decided by a one-on-one duel, turning into a hitherto unknown and evidently very powerful species of Dragon is quite difficult to argue with, and many in the Colleges believe that Dragomas will be the 24th Supreme Patriarch. Today, you'll find out for sure
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Codex said:
and according to 2E realms of Sorcery the line of succession goes like this: Ludmilla von Alptraum>Marius Leitdorf>Marlene von Alptraum
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I think Boney's ignoring that one, because Sigmar's Heirs says that Ludmilla was still in charge in 2502. He seems to be going with the Leitdorfs as long-standing rulers of the province.
 
Mopman43 said:
I think Boney's ignoring that one, because Sigmar's Heirs says that Ludmilla was still in charge in 2502. He seems to be going with the Leitdorfs as long-standing rulers of the province.
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Do these writers not check each other's work? I wouldn't mind if these were from different editions or something, but both Realms of Sorcery and Heirs of Sigmar are 2nd edition! Why do they contradict each other?
 
Electors of the Empire:
Emperor and Grand Prince Luitpold von Holswig-Schliestein of Reikland
Grand Prince Maximillian von Königswald of Ostland
Grand Duke Boris X Todbringer of Middenland
Grand Duke Jurgen Feuerbach of Talabecland
Grand Count Marius Leitdorf of Averland
Grand Countess Roswita van Hal of Stirland
Grand Count Konstantin von Liebwitz of Wissenland
Grand Baroness Bernardine Ludenhof of Hochland
Grand Baron Werner Nikse of Nordland
Chancellor Wolfram Hertwig of Ostermark
Elder Hisme Stoutheart of Mootland
Grand Theogonist, based in Reikland
Arch-Lector, based in Talabecland
Arch-Lector, based in Wissenland
Ar-Ulric Carl Valgeir

Grand Theogonist and Arch-Lectors are currently unnamed. And yeah, be careful with 'I found a fact that is canon so it should be quest canon' because a lot of the times canon conflicts with itself, and I quite often have to choose between two things that are equally canonical but mutually exclusive.
 
Codex said:
Do these writers not check each other's work? I wouldn't mind if these were from different editions or something, but both Realms of Sorcery and Heirs of Sigmar are 2nd edition! Why do they contradict each other?
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I don't think they do. Remember, they're set in 2520. In Realms of Sorcery the date of the massacre Ludmila performed is unspecified, but nothing actually says it couldn't have been 2502 that I can see.

Realms of Sorcery has Marlene "positioned to take over" in a sense that implies it's a foregone conclusion, while Sigmar's Heirs implies it's a bit more contentious and something the PCs could have a hand in deciding, but that can be explained as differing focuses.

EDIT: Wait - I had both books open and was swapping between them, and forgot which was which - Realms of Sorcery details the two front runners and somewhat implies the PCs might get involved, while Sigmar's Heirs glosses over it and doesn't even list the candidates? That's just weird.
 
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BoneyM said:
Electors of the Empire:
Emperor and Grand Prince Luitpold von Holswig-Schliestein of Reikland
Grand Prince Maximillian von Königswald of Ostland
Grand Duke Boris X Todbringer of Middenland
Grand Duke Jurgen Feuerbach of Talabecland
Grand Count Marius Leitdorf of Averland
Grand Countess Roswita van Hal of Stirland
Grand Count Konstantin von Liebwitz of Wissenland
Grand Baroness Bernardine Ludenhof of Hochland
Grand Baron Werner Nikse of Nordland
Chancellor Wolfram Hertwig of Ostermark
Elder Hisme Stoutheart of Mootland
Grand Theogonist, based in Reikland
Arch-Lector, based in Talabecland
Arch-Lector, based in Wissenland
Ar-Ulric Carl Valgeir

Grand Theogonist and Arch-Lectors are currently unnamed. And yeah, be careful with 'I found a fact that is canon so it should be quest canon' because a lot of the times canon conflicts with itself, and I quite often have to choose between two things that are equally canonical but mutually exclusive.
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Thank you very much for your support. I've been bashing my head over this for over a day. It's nice to know that I got 10 of the Electors right, even if I had to make guesses for some of them.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
There's an Arch-lector in Talabecland? I can't imagine the Cult of Taal are happy about that.
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There's probably Arch-Lectors in every major city in the Empire, but the Elector votes goes to, I would imagine, the two most influential ones, the Arch Lectors of Nuln and Talabheim.

Edit: Ignore that bit

For what it's worth, there was at least some period where the city of Talabheim was independent of the province of Talabecland (similar with Middenheim and Middenland). And an urban population probably would be the hardest thing for the Cult of Taal to maintain the majority of.
 
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Mopman43 said:
There's probably Arch-Lectors in every major city in the Empire, but the Elector votes goes to, I would imagine, the two most influential ones, the Arch Lectors of Nuln and Talabheim.

For what it's worth, there was at least some period where the city of Talabheim was independent of the province of Talabecland (similar with Middenheim and Middenland). And an urban population probably would be the hardest thing for the Cult of Taal to maintain the majority of.
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No there are only two Arch-Lectors.
 
Mopman43 said:
There's probably Arch-Lectors in every major city in the Empire, but the Elector votes goes to, I would imagine, the two most influential ones, the Arch Lectors of Nuln and Talabheim.

For what it's worth, there was at least some period where the city of Talabheim was independent of the province of Talabecland (similar with Middenheim and Middenland). And an urban population probably would be the hardest thing for the Cult of Taal to maintain the majority of.
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Looking through my notes, apparently Konstantin's daughter Emmanuelle also tried to do the same thing with separating Nuln and Wissenland in canon when she became Elector Countess (in the very far future). Mostly irrelevant since I doubt things would go the same way, but the Empire has a tendency to play around with separating cities from province. I always found it funny that one of the largest cities in the Empire, Talabheim is in the province of the God of the Wild, Taal. Seems ironic.

Anyways, I managed to find more Wizards in case anyone's interested. Missed the names of Hexensohn's minions back in Drakenhof, but apparently they did have names. I got them written down in the 'dex under Magisters.
 
Do we know anything about how a Grand Theogonist gets elected/selected?
According to the Wiki pages on the Grand Theogonist, the Lectors and the Arch-Lectors it seems like all the Lectors vote from among all the Arch-Lectors, but there's not much else said.

Also, are there more than the two Arch-Lectors with Elector Seats? The Wiki makes it sound like every major city has one in their own article, but the article on the Emperor mentions the two Arch-Lectors among the Electors.

Anyway, what's interesting about this system is that either the Grand Theogonist would often not actually be from Altdorf, because its an Arch-Lector from a different city that gets elevated, or alternatively that many important cities have their local Church of Sigmar branch headed by someone from Altdorf, because that's who the Grand Theogonist likes to elevate to potential heir. The truth is probably somewhere in between, with the trend moving in one direction or the other over the ages. If any of the above is even Quest canon that is.

Edit: Ninja'd

Still don't know which one of the two interpretation on Arch-Lector count is true, because I only have access to the Wiki currently.
 
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Codex said:
I always found it funny that one of the largest cities in the Empire, Talabheim is in the province of the God of the Wild, Taal. Seems ironic.
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To be fair, it's built inside a massive crater, which makes it one of the safest cities in the Empire because beastmen can't just wander in and burn it to the ground. Easy to grow big when you don't have to worry about constant attacks.
 
Quote from the Wiki:

"Arch Lectors usually represent a territory or an important city. A territory can be as large as a province or even several provinces. They have the final say on religious matters that arise in their territory and are answerable to none save the High Priest of their order and the Emperor himself. Orders within a cult might be represented by either a Lector or Arch Lector, and this gives a good indication of the status of that order."

In general that article and the article on Lectors makes it sound like Lectors are quite numerous in the Empire, like Bishops or even more so. And that there are at least a handful or more Arch-Lectors. Otherwise young and energetic priests being elevated to Arch-Lector would be more than just "unusual". And the election to Grand Theogonist would just be all bishop-level clergy voting which of the previous guy's two favored heirs they prefer.
 
Rafin said:
Still don't know which one of the two interpretation on Arch-Lector count is true, because I only have access to the Wiki currently.
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It's confusing, most of Tome of Salvation only mentions the 2 Arch Lectors, but then there's a bit on page 186 talking about modes of address that says "Arch Lector of Middenheim".

I'm not sure how to square that. Maybe Arch Lector as a title isn't exclusively used by the Cult of Sigmar?


For what it's worth, ToS says that there's 18 Lectors in the Cult of Sigmar, or at least in the sub-sect of the Cult of Sigmar that is the Order of the Torch.
 
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