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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DragonParadox said:
They are the closest we have to a systematic explication of magic, I mean sure actual gods might know more but they are not about to tell us. By contrast what else do you have, the cults which are inherently hyper focused on one aspect of magic, which is to say their god, and who have an institutional culture of secrecy, the runesmtiths are just the same

At the end of the day it is to me analogous to the question of 'who do you trust more to explain the world Ionian natural philosophers or mystery cults?' I go with the former, because an absence of secrecy and taboos means it is easier to build a knowledge base, their system might not be perfect but at the very least it is a system that attempts to explain the wider world.
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Or you can just admit that they don't know everything. You just said, without any sort of evidence whatsoever, that the Elves could perhaps know how Divine Magic works, and that Teclis either didn't know or was lying, or that the language he was speaking created a misunderstanding, or that etc. etc.

Do you see the problem here? Your response to evidence isn't to respond with evidence, it's to make a hypothetical claim that discredits the evidence with nothing backing you up other than the utmost trust in the Elven paradigm for no discernible reason. Boney has said that the Teclisean system isn't perfect. He has pointed out multiple times with supporting evidence as to why. Yet you still seem to hold an irrefutable belief that their system can be applied to everything. Despite evidence to the contrary.

And your response is to say "The Elves might know it! They just chose not to say anything or lie! No I don't have evidence!".

I'm sorry if I sound annoyed, but I am in fact annoyed.
 
DragonParadox said:
They are the closest we have to a systematic explication of magic, I mean sure actual gods might know more but they are not about to tell us. By contrast what else do you have, the cults which are inherently hyper focused on one aspect of magic, which is to say their god, and who have an institutional culture of secrecy, the runesmtiths are just the same

At the end of the day it is to me analogous to the question of 'who do you trust more to explain the world Ionian natural philosophers or mystery cults?' I go with the former, because an absence of secrecy and taboos means it is easier to build a knowledge base, their system might not be perfect but at the very least it is a system that attempts to explain the wider world.
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Elves may have, by and large, better understanding of wind magic than humans.
But that does not mean their understanding is perfect, nor should we assume that when their model fails to accurately map to reality, or when they say things that are almost certainly wrong, that they totally know what is going on, just don't have time to explain it.
Sometimes elves are just wrong.
 
DragonParadox said:
They are the closest we have to a systematic explication of magic, I mean sure actual gods might know more but they are not about to tell us. By contrast what else do you have, the cults which are inherently hyper focused on one aspect of magic, which is to say their god, and who have an institutional culture of secrecy, the runesmtiths are just the same

At the end of the day it is to me analogous to the question of 'who do you trust more to explain the world Ionian natural philosophers or mystery cults?' I go with the former, because an absence of secrecy and taboos means it is easier to build a knowledge base, their system might not be perfect but at the very least it is a system that attempts to explain the wider world.
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Aether was a real scientific idea theorized about for hundreds of years. People used it to understand light, gravity, the heavens, etc. They were also completely 100% wrong.

In this quest, things might be a bit more iffy, as belief itself can shape what magic is and is capable of. But the underlying truth is likely something drastically different than anything the Elves, Dwarfs, or Humans believe in. "Teclessian theory" might not be a framework lacking all the pieces of the puzzle, but instead something fundamentally incorrect in a way modern mages (even Teclis) can't even imagine currently.

Edit: Removed bad joke.
 
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BurnNote said:
I don't think Hedgewise use Ulgu, as such. IIRC, it's petty magic, so it doesn't have the nature of a wind.
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Jyn Ryvia said:
Not to mention the new ones that came out (that I listed a few pages back). That very much look like they are drawing on The winds.
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Just as an aside, at last if we believe our Spellbook screen under the Informational tab,

"Petty Magics: These are the very basics of arcane magic, and are taught to all apprentice wizards before they move on to more complicated spells. Though all the Colleges hold these spells in common, each performs them differently due to using different Winds to achieve the same effect. "

There is no such thing as as Magic without Winds at least as far as the Colleges understand it; the petty magics are just universal among the colleges because they all use slightly different methods with different Winds to achieve an identical effect (or near so enough for gameplay purposes).
 
Codex said:
Or you can just admit that they don't know everything. You just said, without any sort of evidence whatsoever, that the Elves could perhaps know how Divine Magic works, and that Teclis either didn't know or was lying, or that the language he was speaking created a misunderstanding, or that etc. etc.

Do you see the problem here? Your response to evidence isn't to respond with evidence, it's to make a hypothetical claim that discredits the evidence with nothing backing you up other than the utmost trust in the Elven paradigm for no discernible reason. Boney has said that the Teclisean system isn't perfect. He has pointed out multiple times with supporting evidence as to why. Yet you still seem to hold an irrefutable belief that their system can be applied to everything. Despite evidence to the contrary.

And your response is to say "The Elves might know it! They just chose not to say anything or lie! No I don't have evidence!".

I'm sorry if I sound annoyed, but I am in fact annoyed.
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I mean, in fairness to DragonParadox, it is in fact goddamn weird that Teclis said "Divine Magic ain't a thing" when the fact that it is a thing is plain as day for anyone with the Windsight to see a miracle-working priest in action and distinguish it from the Winds. "Teclis is extremely dogmatic about an Elven magical theory that excludes Divine Magic" is one possibility, but that seems unlikely to me when one of his defining characteristics is that he was unburdened by Elven dogma in other regards. So I don't think it's unreasonable to entertain other explanations than "he doesn't know what he's talking about," and you don't have to be an Elf-worshipper for that.
 
picklepikkl said:
I mean, in fairness to DragonParadox, it is in fact goddamn weird that Teclis said "Divine Magic ain't a thing" when the fact that it is a thing is plain as day for anyone with the Windsight to see a miracle-working priest in action and distinguish it from the Winds. "Teclis is extremely dogmatic about an Elven magical theory that excludes Divine Magic" is one possibility, but that seems unlikely to me when one of his defining characteristics is that he was unburdened by Elven dogma in other regards. So I don't think it's unreasonable to entertain other explanations than "he doesn't know what he's talking about," and you don't have to be an Elf-worshipper for that.
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I believe that Boney was simply exaggerating what Teclis actually said, which is recorded in Volans' memoirs in canon. Off the top of my head he says that Divine Magic is the same as Arcane Magic, just dressed up in pretty aesthetics.
 
I had the impression that the elven understanding of Divine Magic is that the gods are chanelling themselves through you. Under that perspective, there is no divine magic, but there is divine intervention (and from a human PoV that's basically the same thing). Its also possible divine magic requires, essentially, chiselhands but relating to the god instead of the respective wind.
 
This is the exact transcript of Teclis:

"These 'miracles' that your Human priests believe to be demonstrations of the direct intervention of Gods are just spells of another kind. Aethyrically sensitive priests channel quite unwittingly elements of the Aethyr's Winds through convoluted rituals and great faith, and then shape it with their conscious and subconscious expectations. Just as the Gods themselves are created and shaped by mortal endeavours and expectations, so are their blessings." —ascribed to a lecture by Loremaster Teclis himself

By the way, as a note, I should tell you this. Teclis isn't as much of a nice guy as you might think he is. He is unbelievably arrogant and kind of an asshole, even before End Times. Don't be fooled into thinking he holds absolutely zero prejudice or he holds absolutely no biases whatsoever. He's just better at it than his fellows. And also cares about the world so an entire nation of meatshields is appealing.
 
Codex said:
Or you can just admit that they don't know everything. You just said, without any sort of evidence whatsoever, that the Elves could perhaps know how Divine Magic works, and that Teclis either didn't know or was lying, or that the language he was speaking created a misunderstanding, or that etc. etc.

Do you see the problem here? Your response to evidence isn't to respond with evidence, it's to make a hypothetical claim that discredits the evidence with nothing backing you up other than the utmost trust in the Elven paradigm for no discernible reason. Boney has said that the Teclisean system isn't perfect. He has pointed out multiple times with supporting evidence as to why. Yet you still seem to hold an irrefutable belief that their system can be applied to everything. Despite evidence to the contrary.

And your response is to say "The Elves might know it! They just chose not to say anything or lie! No I don't have evidence!".

I'm sorry if I sound annoyed, but I am in fact annoyed.
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If the standard is 'must know everything', then I am pretty sure even the gods fail... well except maybe Tzeench.

I place utmost trust in the elven paradigm above all other mortal paradigms for several reasons:
  1. Elves use magic without changing themselves so while each researcher develops magic slower than a human would it is inherently designed t be reproducible in a way much of human magic is not
  2. Elves are the only species for which we have a confirmed canonical chain of teaching from the Old Ones through the Slann, others can be suspected this one is solid
  3. Between the sheer time their civilization has been in existence and the relative safety and stability of Ulthuan they are less likely to lose knowledge once they have gained it

Given the above I find the notion that they are fundamentally wrong about divine magic as presented in Teclis in Realms of Sorcery 'it is all just wind magic' hard to credit, not because I do not think elves could ever make a mistake with regards to magic, but because it is such a fundamental mistake. Like I could buy the story a lot easier if it was 'I don't know what the hell your priests are doing' but it is not, the story as recounted is of Teclist making a fundamental misappropriation of how things work in calling in wind magic.

This is something Mathilde Webber could disprove. All he would need is that clean room, a priest and decent mage sight lock a spellcasting priest in the Tower and tell him to cast when there is no or very little Sevir in there. Can he still do it? Then congratulations theory disproved, they do not use the Winds.

Now am I to assume than not only did Teclis not perform this experiment, but no other elf over the past six thousand years did it? That strains my credulity, hence why I find it more likely that Teclis either lied or was misunderstood.
 
DragonParadox said:
If the standard is 'must know everything', then I am pretty sure even the gods fail... well except maybe Tzeench.

I place utmost trust in the elven paradigm above all other mortal paradigms for several reasons:
  1. Elves use magic without changing themselves so while each researcher develops magic slower than a human would it is inherently designed t be reproducible in a way much of human magic is not
  2. Elves are the only species for which we have a confirmed canonical chain of teaching from the Old Ones through the Slann, others can be suspected this one is solid
  3. Between the sheer time their civilization has been in existence and the relative safety and stability of Ulthuan they are less likely to lose knowledge once they have gained it

Given the above I find the notion that they are fundamentally wrong about divine magic as presented in Teclis in Realms of Sorcery 'it is all just wind magic' hard to credit, not because I do not think elves could ever make a mistake with regards to magic, but because it is such a fundamental mistake. Like I could buy the story a lot easier if it was 'I don't know what the hell your priests are doing' but it is not, the story as recounted is of Teclist making a fundamental misappropriation of how things work in calling in wind magic.

This is something Mathilde Webber could disprove. All he would need is that clean room, a priest and decent mage sight lock a spellcasting priest in the Tower and tell him to cast when there is no or very little Sevir in there. Can he still do it? Then congratulations theory disproved, they do not use the Winds.

Now am I to assume than not only did Teclis not perform this experiment, but no other elf over the past six thousand years did it? That strains my credulity, hence why I find it more likely that Teclis either lied or was misunderstood.
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You know what I believe? I believe that Teclis is a greatly respected wizard with amazing abilities and every single student in the classroom respects him greatly and is absolutely honored to be taught by him. So none of them humiliate him in front of the class by outright destroying his theory, and Teclis gets to walk away having preserved his dignity by refusing to believe that divine magic is different because he refusses to believe that perhaps, the Elven theory isn't right, and humans can do something that Elves can't. And they've been doing it for thousands of years without the guidance of their superior race.
 
DragonParadox said:
This is something Mathilde Webber could disprove. All he would need is that clean room, a priest and decent mage sight lock a spellcasting priest in the Tower and tell him to cast when there is no or very little Sevir in there. Can he still do it? Then congratulations theory disproved, they do not use the Winds.
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Mathilde already knows that divine energy isn't wind energy.
 
Codex said:
You know what I believe? I believe that Teclis is a greatly respected wizard with amazing abilities and every single student in the classroom respects him greatly and is absolutely honored to be taught by him. So none of them humiliate him in front of the class by outright destroying his theory, and Teclis gets to walk away having preserved his dignity by refusing to believe that divine magic is different because he refusses to believe that perhaps, the Elven theory isn't right, and humans can do something that Elves can't. And they've been doing it for thousands of years without the guidance of their superior race.
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Why is elven theory like that though? Why has no elf mage done that experiment on a random human priest they kidnapped out of the primordial forests of the Empire over the past several millennia? It would hardly be outside the range of their ability and elves are defined by their obsession, in the case of their wizards that obsession if often in the direction of learning magic.

Derpmind said:
Mathilde already knows that divine energy isn't wind energy.
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Yes obviously, my point was that anyone with a clean room could discover it, you do not need to have mystical insights for it
 
Codex said:
One of Ulric's strictures outright calls you a coward if you use Gunpowder, and the Middenheimers still use it. There is no stricture against magic, just a vague dislike because it's unreliable and you can't "control" it. But at least we know that at one point they're skirting a stricture and at another there is nothing forbidding magic in the Ulrican strictures.
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I think the thing to remember is that while you may find a lay Follower of Ulric using a firearm the more devoted of his followers like the Priesthood, their Templar knights and groups like the Wolf-Kin won't use them. The reason that Middenheim has Cannons as part of its defenses is because the Elector Counts of Middenland as the city's rulers look at the city's defense from a secular not a religious perspective.

When it comes to the argument over whether Divine Magic exists I would point out that their is at least one group of Elves that fall outside of White Tower of Hoath's ideas about wizards and priests casting being the same thing and they are the blind priests of the forge God Vaul. While they sacrifice their eyes they gain skill at forging things both mundane and magical that no member of the White Tower can match. The other issue is that as Humans and Elves are fundamentally different then maybe the way they channel the power of the Winds versus how they channel the power of the of the Gods. Thus Teclis could be right when it comes to Elves but wrong in some respects about humans.
 
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DragonParadox said:
This is something Mathilde Webber could disprove. All he would need is that clean room, a priest and decent mage sight lock a spellcasting priest in the Tower and tell him to cast when there is no or very little Sevir in there. Can he still do it? Then congratulations theory disproved, they do not use the Winds.
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You vastly underestimate how hard it is to get a priest and a mage in the same room doing research.
Priests do not appreciate their gods being put under a microscope.

They have faith. Millennia of prejudice against magic vs barely more than a century of the colleges.

Subtract the time they were outlawed and it might not even be a full century.

They draw their legitimacy by being different from magic. They will never admit to being the same.

They won't risk this result of the experiment.
 
Stewart9 said:
I think the thing to remember is that while you may find a lay Follower of Ulric using a firearm the more devoted of his followers like the Priesthood, their Templar knights and groups like the Wolf-Kin won't use them. The reason that Middenheim has Cannons as part of its defenses is because the Elector Counts of Middenland as the city's rulers look at the city's defense from a secular not a religious perspective.
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I know, but this is his city. It's the City of the White Wolf, on the mountain known as the Ulricsberg which Ulric is said to have smashed flat so that Mitgard, latter Middenheim could be built on it, and where his sacred flame and the center of his cult is. If any place was to consider its defences from a religous perspective, then it would be that city. The fact that they took the pragmatic view simply shows that Ulric prioritises survival, because otherwise, he would just show his displeasure. It's His city after all.
 
LightLan said:
You vastly underestimate how hard it is to get a priest and a mage in the same room doing research.
Priests do not appreciate their gods being put under a microscope.

They have faith. Millennia of prejudice against magic vs barely more than a century of the colleges.

Subtract the time they were outlawed and it might not even be a full century.

They draw their legitimacy by being different from magic. They will never admit to being the same.

They won't risk this result of the experiment.
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There are two ways to get around that just off the top of my head, pay a priest of Heinrich, elves of high station are obscenely rich by human standards, or if you are feeling like allying with the local corsairs capture an entire village and threaten the local priest that if he does not cast you will start blowing up his friends and family one at a time. Any Archmage wishing to study the phenomenon over the literal millennia they would have had, even with the Ban on the Old World, would have had a plethora of options, there are after all humans everywhere.
 
DragonParadox said:
There are two ways to get around that just off the top of my head, pay a priest of Heinrich, elves of high station are obscenely rich by human standards, or if you are feeling like allying with the local corsairs capture an entire village and threaten the local priest that if he does not cast you will start blowing up his friends and family one at a time. Any Archmage wishing to study the phenomenon over the literal millennia they would have had, even with the Ban on the Old World, would have had a plethora of options, there are after all humans everywhere.
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What Archmage would swallow their pride for such a study?
 
DragonParadox said:
There are two ways to get around that just off the top of my head, pay a priest of Heinrich, elves of high station are obscenely rich by human standards, or if you are feeling like allying with the local corsairs capture an entire village and threaten the local priest that if he does not cast you will start blowing up his friends and family one at a time. Any Archmage wishing to study the phenomenon over the literal millennia they would have had, even with the Ban on the Old World, would have had a plethora of options, there are after all humans everywhere.
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There's humans everywhere, but being fully accurate, the only place we know that has humans doing the whole "priests casting spells with their gods" thing is the Old World. And Nehekhara, maybe, though they've also been dead for 3,500 years.

That's probably more from lack of sources than anything else, but all the same. As one example, I don't think we even know what deities are worshipped in Araby, let alone if they have priests casting spells like the Old World does.

If Boney is using the new Cathay lore, then they would not be any help at all, given they don't seem to have any gods present.
 
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