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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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silentorphan said:
That Mathilde might be deluding herself that because one thing is accepted, that automatically means the other is too.

Of course, I do believe that she's actually right and they are, but it still might be a blind spot for her.
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One of Ulric's strictures outright calls you a coward if you use Gunpowder, and the Middenheimers still use it. There is no stricture against magic, just a vague dislike because it's unreliable and you can't "control" it. But at least we know that at one point they're skirting a stricture and at another there is nothing forbidding magic in the Ulrican strictures.
 
If Ulric really didn't like magic he could always have burnt Magnus to a crisp. That he didn't shows that he clearly thinks there are circumstances where it is ok to use it.
 
Jreengus said:
If Ulric really didn't like magic he could always have burnt Magnus to a crisp. That he didn't shows that he clearly thinks there are circumstances where it is ok to use it.
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Technically he stepped into the flames before courting Teclis and bringing him over to train human wizards, but the other points still stand.
 
Codex said:
Technically he stepped into the flames before courting Teclis and bringing him over to train human wizards, but the other points still stand.
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Huh I thought the reason the Ar-Ulric was preaching so hard against him was because of his accepting magic. Why was he so opposed then? You'd think he'd want a devout strong ulrican emperor.
 
Jreengus said:
I guess I had a lot of wrong assumptions about him then, I always though he was an Ulrican.
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Magnus of Nuln was a Sigmarite first and foremost, but he was pious and believed in all the gods to a very significant extent. He was outright blessed by Sigmar (Sigmarites strung him on a cross and tried to burn him, flames failed to catch), Ulric (Ar-Ulric denounced him so he took off his cloak and dramatically jumped into the flame and wasn't burned), Taal (Wolves howled all across Talabheim as a gigantic stag with a hammer strapped to its antlers stepped up to Magnus) and Manaan (Waves and storm crashed onto Marienburg as Triton swam back and forth across the harbour).

Just so you don't think I'm exaggerating, this is from the in-universe text known as Jutte Sigmarzoon's Chronicle of Magnus from Page 22-23 of Tome of Salvation:

"But the hatred and mistrust of a thousand years of war were impossible to ignore, and many did not want to hear him, especially the embittered cults. However, where they damned Magnus, their Gods supported him. In Middenheim, the Cult of Ulric ridiculed the preacher; so Magnus walked through the Eternal Flame, proving the War God's favour. In Altdorf, the Grand Theogonist claimed he was a heretic. But when the Templars of Sigmar tied him to a stake for burning, the flames would not catch, even when fuelled with oils. When Magnus arrived in Talabheim, the Taalites ordered him to leave. In response, the wolves of the Taalgrunhaar forest howled louder than thunder, and a Great Stag marked with a white hammer appeared in Taal's temple. When Magnus spoke in Marienburg, and the Manannites jeered at his foreign war, the sea came alive, and it is said Triton himself swam between the islands. Wherever he went, Magnus unflaggingly spoke of war, of the coming threat, of the necessity of relieving Kislev before it was too late. And the Gods responded."
 
Altom said:
I wish i could see the eval bar for that particular game.

You might be mistaking him for his younger brother Gunthar, who after Magnus died lost the Emperor election due to him being extremly Ulrican and pissng off Sigmatites
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You're probably thinking of Dynamic Alcoholism's Gunthar, because canon Gunthar has less details applied to him. This is what we know from page 22 of Sigmar's Heirs:

2369 IC: On the death of Magnus, the Empire passes not to his brother Gunthar von Bildhofen (having antagonised the Grand Theogonist), but to Count Leopold of Stirland.

2371 IC: Gunthar von Bildhofen's granddaughter marries Boris Todbringer, and their son becomes the first Todbringer Graf of Middenheim.
 
Codex said:
One of Ulric's strictures outright calls you a coward if you use Gunpowder, and the Middenheimers still use it. There is no stricture against magic, just a vague dislike because it's unreliable and you can't "control" it. But at least we know that at one point they're skirting a stricture and at another there is nothing forbidding magic in the Ulrican strictures.
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IIRC, Ulric has a sliding scale of things he disapproves off, but his foremost virtue is survival. If you can survive without a tool, then you should, because tools can break of be lost (or you become dependent). If you can't survive without a tool, then that is acceptable, though maybe you should work towards not needing it. And if you can make that tool yourself, that also lessens the disapproval, because it will matter less when you lose it.

A gun is worse than a bow, because it requires much more infrastructure, but doesn't let that much greater ability. A canon is less problematic than a gun, because there's no way you could fling a cannonball yourself.
 
Have we noticed some internal monologue changes, purple prose, playfully casting herself as some sort of infalliable pulp protagonist?
So... you know, the Lady of Excess was very focused on what we were just doing- not for the first time have we made their perfect little games imperfect.

It's probably quite important that we don't grab the (vain)glory of this kill for ourselves.

Also, hmm, we must have Divine grooves worn in our soul by now, same as Ulgu. If we're about to become a minor battleground between Order and Chaos Hunting gods...

Maybe Mathilde should review the Grey material on mental Chaos influence.

[X] The Longshanks
[X] The Templars of Sigmar
 
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Codex said:
Magnus of Nuln was a Sigmarite first and foremost, but he was pious and believed in all the gods to a very significant extent. He was outright blessed by Sigmar (Sigmarites strung him on a cross and tried to burn him, flames failed to catch), Ulric (Ar-Ulric denounced him so he took off his cloak and dramatically jumped into the flame and wasn't burned), Taal (Wolves howled all across Talabheim as a gigantic stag with a hammer strapped to its antlers stepped up to Magnus) and Manaan (Waves and storm crashed onto Marienburg as Triton swam back and forth across the harbour).

Just so you don't think I'm exaggerating, this is from the in-universe text known as Jutte Sigmarzoon's Chronicle of Magnus from Page 22-23 of Tome of Salvation:

"But the hatred and mistrust of a thousand years of war were impossible to ignore, and many did not want to hear him, especially the embittered cults. However, where they damned Magnus, their Gods supported him. In Middenheim, the Cult of Ulric ridiculed the preacher; so Magnus walked through the Eternal Flame, proving the War God's favour. In Altdorf, the Grand Theogonist claimed he was a heretic. But when the Templars of Sigmar tied him to a stake for burning, the flames would not catch, even when fuelled with oils. When Magnus arrived in Talabheim, the Taalites ordered him to leave. In response, the wolves of the Taalgrunhaar forest howled louder than thunder, and a Great Stag marked with a white hammer appeared in Taal's temple. When Magnus spoke in Marienburg, and the Manannites jeered at his foreign war, the sea came alive, and it is said Triton himself swam between the islands. Wherever he went, Magnus unflaggingly spoke of war, of the coming threat, of the necessity of relieving Kislev before it was too late. And the Gods responded."
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Goddamn I knew about the white flame and templaes failing to burn him; But those other two are equally awesome. With the whole pretty much patron saint of the College and coming to Kislevs aid in their hour of need.

All that's missing for ascension would have been saving the northern dawi too. Maybe all the wizards thanking Magnus profusely when they reflect on their place in the Empire is enough to light a spark?

Would be a cool concept to explore the repurcussions of a godling Magnus cult.
 
Alliterate said:
Have we noticed some internal monologue changes, purple prose, playfully casting herself as some sort of infalliable pulp protagonist?
So... you know, the Lady of Excess was very focused on what we were just doing- not for the first time have we made their perfect little games imperfect.
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I have noticed and pointed it out in nearly all my reaction posts for this arc, but I took it as a natural extension of her general development. All her papers ever since the Karag Dum Expedition have been exciting light novels. I don't see why her applying the prose to her inner monologue suddenly means Slaanesh when it's something that's been going on for a while now.
 
Codex said:
You're probably thinking of Dynamic Alcoholism's Gunthar, because canon Gunthar has less details applied to him. This is what we know from page 22 of Sigmar's Heirs:

2369 IC: On the death of Magnus, the Empire passes not to his brother Gunthar von Bildhofen (having antagonised the Grand Theogonist), but to Count Leopold of Stirland.

2371 IC: Gunthar von Bildhofen's granddaughter marries Boris Todbringer, and their son becomes the first Todbringer Graf of Middenheim.
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To be honest, DoDA probaly have affected my perception of the guy but there is a canonical source for him being ulrican ( assuming wiki cited correctly that is)
 
Codex said:
I have noticed and pointed it out in nearly all my reaction posts for this arc, but I took it as a natural extension of her general development. All her papers ever since the Karag Dum Expedition have been exciting light novels. I don't see why her applying the prose to her inner monologue suddenly means Slaanesh when it's something that's been going on for a while now.
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I don't see it as natural at all, though.
Since the Karag Dum Expedition, you say? What happened there?
We also didn't use to sensationalise our papers with totally-necessary dramatic retellings of how we almost decapitated a higher daemon.
 
Codex said:
This is Kurtis Krammovitch's canonical story in Shades of Empire Page 68. I feel comofortable posting it because Boney has made a lot of changes so it's only really relevant as a comparison rather than providing any spoilers:

"Kurtis Krammovitch was an Ostermarker Hedgewise with a grudge. When he was young, he watched his parents, both Hedgefolk, be burned as Witches by a passing Bright Magister. Krammovitch's uncle, who was also Hedgefolk, thereafter raised him. On his eighth birthday he showed his first signs of being one of the Blessed Few when he healed a calf that should have died in childbirth by using nothing but his tear-stained hands. His powers developed quickly, and by the age of nineteen Krammovitch was tremendously skilled in Hedgecraft, uncannily so; further, he had a plan.

Later that year Krammovitch was captured by a young Grey Magister after the Shadowmancer spotted him fumbling a simple curse on a shopkeeper who had clearly fleeced him. As he had planned, Krammovitch had a new master.

Fifty years later, Krammovitch is now a Lord Magister of the Grey Order, and has trained many new apprentices, all Hedgefolk, all subtly allowed to maintain their rural beliefs instead of being fully indoctrinated into the Greys. From this position he works hard to support the Hedgefolk where he can, and to manoeuvre his apprentices into positions where they can do the same. However, he is beginning to believe all may not be as it seems; what if the Greys purposefully recruited him to do exactly as he is doing: to train the Hedgefolk in proper Collegiate magic?"

There's also Markus Fischer, who doesn't exist yet because it's 2522 IC in Shades of Empire:

"One of the Blessed Few, Fischer was apprenticed to an elderly Hedgewise at the tender age of ten. He was a quick student, and soon became a Hedge Master in his own right. By his seventeenth birthday, he was eking out a simple life on the lower Reik selling charms to superstitious bargees, and supporting the local network of Hedgefolk.

However, in the early 2500s, a Magister observed him plying his trade. The young Fischer, outwitted by a cunning Shadowmancer, was captured and taken to the Colleges. There, he was given the choice of death or training as a Magister, and wisely chose the latter. A decade later, Fischer left the Colleges as one of their most talented and powerful Grey Magisters, and was soon assigned to the Reikland State Army. There he served with distinction, and was eventually attached to the Imperial Guard, the Emperor's own regimental bodyguard, before attaining the title of Lord Magister.

After twenty years of being a Grey Guardian, Markus still holds tight to his Hedgefolk beliefs. He may no longer practice Hedgecraft, but he still quietly supports the Hedgefolk and maintains his religious convictions. However, lately he has come to believe his Order may be aware of his beliefs; indeed, he fears they may be using him to gain access to the Hedgefolk he once held so dear, especially since it appears his own master in the Grey Order, Lord Magister Krammovitch, the man who captured him, may once have been one of the Hedgefolk as well"
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Curiously nothing here says that either Krammovitch or Fischer retained the ability to cast Hedge Magic. Both snippets talk a lot about their "beliefs". Krammovitch's snippet even talks about "training Hedgefolk in proper Collegiate magic" and for that to be a good thing for the College such training should replace their former magical tradition, not add to it (not much sense in teaching someone "good" kind of magic if they still use the "bad" kind).
 
LockedMind said:
Curiously nothing here says that either Krammovitch or Fischer retained the ability to cast Hedge Magic. Both snippets talk a lot about their "beliefs". Krammovitch's snippet even talks about "training Hedgefolk in proper Collegiate magic" and for that to be a good thing for the College such training should replace their former magical tradition, not add to it (not much sense in teaching someone "good" kind of magic if they still use the "bad" kind).
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Yes, neither passages say that they use Hedge Magic, but Boney listed Kurtis in the list of people Mathilde knows that defy Teclisean principles, so the assumption has been that he can cast it:
Boney said:
Kragg and Thorek, Ljiljana and the other Ice Witches, Heidi and Kasmir and the Ar-Ulric, Kurtis Krammovitch, Cadaeth...
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Andres said:
I don't think Ulric's got anything against magic actually? In 4e at least the only cult that's really got a problem with magic is the Cult of Sigmar. Middenheim even got shit from the Witch Hunters for their lax attitude on wizards, said attitude being hosting a fully legal guild of wizards since 113 IC.
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In 2nd edition Realms of Sorcery, Sigmarites and Ulricans are lumped together several times as having lead persecution of magic-users.

That magic guild is very much something exclusive to 4th edition- 2nd edition has a magic guild in Middenheim, but it was founded after Magnus (the exact circumstances and nature of it's founding depending on if you're reading Ashes of Middenheim or Realms of Sorcery)
 
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LockedMind said:
Curiously nothing here says that either Krammovitch or Fischer retained the ability to cast Hedge Magic. Both snippets talk a lot about their "beliefs". Krammovitch's snippet even talks about "training Hedgefolk in proper Collegiate magic" and for that to be a good thing for the College such training should replace their former magical tradition, not add to it (not much sense in teaching someone "good" kind of magic if they still use the "bad" kind).
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Nah, Hedwise magic isn't bad. It's not Dhar. It's illegal. But if the Hedgewise had found a giant pile of money to bribe Dieter (or whoever legalised the Elemantalist College), then they'd be fine. But as it is, you just flat out can't do magic in the empire without being a member of the Colleges. That applies even to the elves. Technically, only Teclis is allowed to do magic, because he's considered a member (the first Patriarch).

It should also be remembered that the Grey College probably always had a strong history of Hedgefolk magic. Teclis recruited existing traditions. But they were not fully discarded.

I don't think Hedgewise use Ulgu, as such. IIRC, it's petty magic, so it doesn't have the nature of a wind. But I'm pretty sure a chunk of their attitudes/philosophy/lore still ended up influencing the Greys. And I'm pretty sure that's part of the reason the Greys are perfectly happy to accomodate the occasional Hedgefolk infiltrator. As far as they're concered, the Hedgefolk are the technophobe and xenophobic country cousins with strange beliefs (and how probably all run illegal stills), but still family. If one of them wants to hang out in the city and get a proper education, that's great. If they want to take that education back, even better! They won't listen to someone just offering, but if they think they 'stole' it? That works.
 
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