deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Mathilde didn't consider reading the Liber Mortis to be a breach though. It might be an arbitrary definition, but it's one she has.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Reading the Liber Mortis was not technically a breach of the Articles, and that technicality matters to Mathilde. Deliberately using Dhar, even in small amounts, would do so.
Reading the Liber Mortis gave us:
- An understanding of Undead tactics.
- An understanding of Undead strategies.
- An understanding of Skaven tactics.
- An understanding of Skaven strategies.
- An understanding of extremely secret Morrite lore.
- A substantial bonus to counterspelling (and casting) necromancy.
- An understanding of Dhar that whilst extremely dangerous in the wrong hands, helps understand what it's doing and how it's used.
- Insights into the nature of Vlad Von Carstein.
- A compelling reason to believe that Dhar is fundamentally not worth the risks.
- The ability to cast spells from other winds, that we could never use in front of anyone we weren't sure of being able to silence before word spread, lest we be branded a Black Magister.
Last edited:
We'd have to be pushed a lot to do it, but I wonder if Mathilde could decide that it's acceptable to use Ulgu to grab environmental Dhar and move it into contact with her belt to burn it away without breaking the spirit of the articles as a way of cleaning up a location. A technical breach of the letter, but not the intent, perhaps, given counter-spelling is allowed. It's not as if she's using the Dhar to do anything, after all, just destroying it.
The canon Jade College apparently had a decade long project where they were gradually cleansing Sylvania of Dhar corruption, although we don't know how. Presumably that would have somehow involved touching Dhar with their own Wind.
Edit: another thought, given what we know about Apparitions being able to consume a kind of magic without being of that kind of magic, I wonder if a Whispering Darkness apparition would eat Dhar and be able to convert it into more neutral Aethyric energy, in a way analogous to how something inside Karaz-a-Karak does. Binding one of them could be a way to make the kind of spell I proposed above much more generally applicable, as the Dhar could be fed to an apparition rather than needing a unique runic belt.
Last edited:
- Location
- Wherever I feel like being
- Pronouns
- He/Him
She actually did something similar already when she snatched the Shyish from the Duckling during a miscast that was about to inflict something on her jaw, likely rotting away the flesh or something equally ghastly. She grounded it out in her belt, shoving the Ulgu and Shyish both at it so that they'd curdle into Dhar intentionally and burn off harmlessly without risk to herself or her charges.
Edit: I just had the most insane idea ever. Get Kragg to make another item that burns off Dhar. And launch it at Morrslieb. Cue the entire moon burning off as the belt starts sucking up Dhar.
Last edited:
Bingo, if you want to talk about second order benefits than it helps to actually list them, not just say 'well there are insights'. Insights for what, thw question arises. There is nothing about Dhar producing serial wind casting that is outside the framework we understand magic in. It is just touching the bad magic in a very specialized way aided by our artifact gear that allows us to avoid the principal issue of producing any Dhar, namely going insane, it does not deal with the other issue which is 'being hunted down like a dog for breach or article seven'.
The Liber Mortis is something we read, it lives at the back of our heads and we do not have to do anything with the questionable magic to get use out of it. By contrast multi-wind casting is instrumental, it is about being able to do things... but only in secret lest we be killed or worse by our own allies. It does not come within shouting distance of being useful and worth it.
Yeah, won't argue with that, she thinks that; but it's only arguable that reading Liber Mortis is not a breach, many people would disagree; and it can be argued that Dhar-glue is not a breach also, because it does not "utilises the wicked powers of Dark Magic", it just uses presence of the Dhar that just sorts of hangs about while the casting is underway, and harmlessly dissipates later. This technicality is flimsier, but it still arguable.
And, while Mathilde is on opposite side of debate for this two matters, given evidence and justification based on utility, she can adjust her opinion about it without feeling too bad about herself and avoiding lasting mental harmful changes.
Or, if the investigation reveals that it is too bad and testing it really, inarguably, was a breach, learn from it, become more careful, and leave it behind her.
That I disagree with, I don't see it as that certain. I think that e.g. it's possible to get insights from this which would allow Mathilde to better understand process of multi-wind enchantment, if/when she gets to it. And how learning new magical techniques are not useful? It would increase Mathilde's general understanding of magic. I won't argue with you if you are that categorically sure about it, but the statement "It does not come within shouting distance of being useful and worth it." does not ring to me as true.
Last edited:
Magic is a tool, it is entirely possible to invent useless magical techniques, just as it is possible to create dead end technologies. Indeed taking the technology comparison further I would say that the paths to useful discoveries are far less numerous than the ones that lead to metaphysical boondoggles that do not aid in anything. Before setting out on a long secretive and perilous search we should have some indication that there is something at the end of the road that could be worth the search. 'It could increase Mathilde's general understanding of magic' really does not cut it for me.
When talking about breaching the Articles of Imperial Magic, there are clearly processes for getting exceptions made to them:
I think Mathilde would need to make a really good case though. If I squint and am really generous, I could see an argument based on the fact that the Waystones are multi-Wind artifacts that can also manipulate and channel Dhar, and if the Colleges want to produce a way of exploiting them that isn't dependent on the good will of an elven Archmage, Mathilde really needs to be allowed to experiment with multi-Wind spellcasting in a way that manipulates Dhar indirectly, if simply so she can try to come up with better ways later that manage the Dhar issue.
I could see a theoretical multi-Wind spell designed to tap into the Waystone network with built in functionality that automatically safely disposes of the Dhar used as glue into the network as the spell completes.
I could also see trying to use this kind of multi-Wind + Dhar casting being used to produces models of or investigate the principles by which a Waystone might function. For example, Waystones attract both Dhar and all the Winds of Magic to them, it seems. That's a property that they share with only one of thing we know of, Dhar itself.
Edit: sorry, two things, Dhar and the vortex inside a vampire's soul
I think Mathilde would need to make a really good case though. If I squint and am really generous, I could see an argument based on the fact that the Waystones are multi-Wind artifacts that can also manipulate and channel Dhar, and if the Colleges want to produce a way of exploiting them that isn't dependent on the good will of an elven Archmage, Mathilde really needs to be allowed to experiment with multi-Wind spellcasting in a way that manipulates Dhar indirectly, if simply so she can try to come up with better ways later that manage the Dhar issue.
I could see a theoretical multi-Wind spell designed to tap into the Waystone network with built in functionality that automatically safely disposes of the Dhar used as glue into the network as the spell completes.
I could also see trying to use this kind of multi-Wind + Dhar casting being used to produces models of or investigate the principles by which a Waystone might function. For example, Waystones attract both Dhar and all the Winds of Magic to them, it seems. That's a property that they share with only one of thing we know of, Dhar itself.
Edit: sorry, two things, Dhar and the vortex inside a vampire's soul
Last edited:
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Two notes:
First, I think it would be wildly out of character for Mathilde to start experimenting with Dhar at all. She read the evil book, yeah, but she's a grey and has ALWAYS been super concious of the rules she operates under, and we've gotten more than one look into how she justifies what she does. In no case is there ever any hint that she doesn't want to comply with them, or doesn't believe they are important. Instead, we get stuff like we saw in the grey dorms: a sense of which rules can be pushed and which ones are untouchable, but never a 'i can break this one and hide the evidence' sort of thought process.
Second, I'm reminded that we got explicit confirmation that dwarven runecraft can break apart Dhar into benign energies. I am quite curious about this, and if it can be reproduced by any other method.
First, I think it would be wildly out of character for Mathilde to start experimenting with Dhar at all. She read the evil book, yeah, but she's a grey and has ALWAYS been super concious of the rules she operates under, and we've gotten more than one look into how she justifies what she does. In no case is there ever any hint that she doesn't want to comply with them, or doesn't believe they are important. Instead, we get stuff like we saw in the grey dorms: a sense of which rules can be pushed and which ones are untouchable, but never a 'i can break this one and hide the evidence' sort of thought process.
Second, I'm reminded that we got explicit confirmation that dwarven runecraft can break apart Dhar into benign energies. I am quite curious about this, and if it can be reproduced by any other method.
I wouldn't say that experimenting with Dhar is out of character for Mathilde. She did so as part of reverse engineering the ratling gun. This was under Johann's exemption from the rules, but I think she'd be willing to do so if she were granted a similar exemption.
Waystones in general may be able to do so. I speculated above that a Whispering Darkness may be able eat Dhar and convert it into whatever flavour of Aethyric energy Apparitions are made of, but on the case of that Apparition that might not be that benign. It could be though.
Waystones in general may be able to do so. I speculated above that a Whispering Darkness may be able eat Dhar and convert it into whatever flavour of Aethyric energy Apparitions are made of, but on the case of that Apparition that might not be that benign. It could be though.
Last edited:
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm reading through Shades of Empire, and the section of Hedgefolk is extremely interesting and possibly quite relevant so I'm going to do an overview/summary of them. It's gonna be a long one, but even if you don't want to read all of it, I implore you to at least read the spoiler in the end containing the Hedgecraft Spell List. It's very interesting stuff.
Alright, getting into it. First off, the Hedgefolk are an ancient group of magic practitioners that have existed for "as long as humans wandered the Reik Basin", and they seem to be geographically locked around the region. There are dozens of splinters and distinct cultural differences between many of the Hedgefolk, but they follow a lot of the same generalities that is mostly modified by the history of the area they're in and who they worship. And that's something important.
The Hedgefolk don't seem to be secular. The defining factor of the Hedgefolk is that they all practice "Hedgecraft", a series of rituals, rites and practices handed down from Master to Apprentice over the years to harness the "Hedge". The Hedge is defined as the conceptual border between wilderness and civilisation in folklore, but the Hedgefolk take this even further and define it as the border between the material and spirit realms. However, while all the Hedgefolk may practice Hedgecraft, only the "Blessed Few" can actually manifest magical abilities.
The Blessed Few are aethyrically attuned individuals that are viewed as being blessed by the gods and capable of channeling their power to access the Hedge through the rituals of Hedgecraft. Except their magic is distinctly not Divine, and it is not an Arcane or Dark Lore either. Their magic is classified in Shades of Empire as a "Witch Lore", just like the Ungol Hags and Ice Witches of Kislev. It is also stated that a person with a Witch Lore can only learn one Witch Lore, and may never learn a Divine, Arcane, Dark or another Witch lore. I'm not sure this extends to DL, as Kurtis Krammovitch seems able to use Hedge and Grey Magic.
In terms of their structure, the Hedgefolk are typically village folk who live in rural areas and small communities, tending to live at the edge of these communities to bring themselves closer to the border/boundaries, pushing them closer to the hedge. They are generally known as "Cunning Folk" or "Wise Ones" and typically consulted for all manner of potions, talismans, charms, cures and all sorts of stuff, and act as the town's apothecary and "magic consultant". Hedgefolk tend to have insular communities centered around their extended family and tuned in to the local community due to intermarriage and consistent contact.
Hedgefolk have a hierarchy. It goes with the Apprentices at the bottom, Hedge Masters/Mistresses above them, and then the Hedgwise at the top within a local community. A Hedgewise rules based on tradition and respect, as the Hedgefolk respect traditions and most end up apprenticed to the Hedgewise or a Hedgemaster that turns into a Hedgewise. A Hedgewise is determined by a council of Hedgemasters when the Hedgewise dies, and it's typically the oldest and wisest of them. The apprenticeship traditions of the Hedgewise can vary wildly between master to master and province to province, but the general commonality is that if you're one of the Blessed Few you're guaranteed to be apprenticed and turned into a master or Hedgewise. Many of these Blessed Few end up being taught their traditions by masters who don't have magical abilities, due to lack of Blessed Few these days.
In terms of their history, it's mostly a tragic one. The Hedgefolk were respected and accepted by most communities for a very long time, but with the passage of time and the establishment of the major cults, the Cults of Sigmar, Taal and Ulric took issue to these witches and during the Time of Three Emperors pursued and persecuted them. Specifically the Cults of Sigmar in Reikland and the Cult of Ulric in Middenland, the Cult of Taal was busy with its own things.
After a long period of persecution, the Great War against Chaos happens and the Colleges form. In DL, many of the Hedgefolk left to join the colleges, but many also stayed. They didn't view the seers, druids, elementalists, alchemists and the like that were joining the Colleges to be anything like them, they weren't Hedgefolk or Blessed Few, so they shunned the Colleges.
It was a mistake, because they ended up being hunted too. For extermination by Witch Hunters, and recruitment by the Colleges. And while the Colleges would be happy to accept Hedgefolk, the response to them refusing the invitation usually isn't to let them go.
The Hedgefolk try to not attract the attention of the authorities and they hate Chaos and other untrained practitioners of magic like Witches, Warlocks and Necromancers. They will hunt them down as they attract attention that they do not want to come to their heads. Hedgefolk will often be protected from Witch Hunter attention by locals who have good relations with them, and the Hedgefolk escape to areas they call Hedgeholes to hide out. Hedgefolk don't practice secret signs and codes after a disastrous massacre in the Veldt in Ostermark followed by burnings across Reikland in 2231 IC at the hands of Sigmarite infiltrators who found out their codes. Now they generally keep to themselves and have people watching out for the urban centers to keep unwanted attention away. Most Hedgefolk are concentrated around the forests.
It is of the utmost importance that Hedgefolk pass on their knowledge so that it doesn't die out, so every Hedge Master is required to have at least one apprentice. More traditional provinces like Nordland and Middenland make this a religious imperative.
Hedgefolk have many splinters based on their province, so I'll list them one by one. The commonalities between them seems to be that all of them are dedicated to one god or another, typically Ranald or Haletha I believe, but they're not restricted to that as some worship Verena. The only province that hasn't had any Hedgefolk mentioned is Stirland.
Ostland: Reside in the Forest of Shadows, worship their protector goddess Haletha. Fairly insular but has good relations with Ungol Hag Witches from Kislev, which results in them sheltering Hag Witches during a crackdown and the Hag Witches doing the same to the Hedgefolk. The Hag Witches dislike male mages because they believe they fall to the Ruinous Powers easier and will not assist male Hedgefolk. Thankfully for the Ostlanders, they believe the same, so this isn't much of an issue. They are currently dying out as a result of an encounter with a Necromancer in DL and their subsequent refusal to accept help from the other Hedgefolk.
Ostermark: Known as "Wise Ones", which is described in the book as those who believe that they were granted the knowledge of the Hedge by Verena. Have the same deal with Hag Witches that Ostlanders have as well as female dominance of the trade for the same reasons. As mentioned above, they were infiltrated by Sigmarites so they're probably quite cautious.
Nordland: Reside in the Forest of Shadows and worship Haletha, they watch over the forest. Some hardliners from the province ritually brand/scar their apprentices as initiation.
Averland: Believe themselves to be descended from "Brigundian Priest-Kings". Brigundians are the Averland pre-Imperial tribe, well known for their horses and chariots. The phrase Priest King and the chariots remind me of a particular civilisation down south that has at one point or another conquered all the way to the south of the Empire, Nehekhara, so it's possible that their traditions descend from them if my theory is correct.
Wissenland: Known as "Wise Ones" and worship Verena. They only take apprentices from outside their extended family, eager to expand Hedgefolk acceptance among as much of the local family groups as possible for their safety.
Middenland: Known as Cunning Folk and worship Ranald. Tricky and dislike the Ulricans in their province due to long term prosecution by the Ulricans due to the enmity between Ulricans and Ranaldites.
Talabecland: They were not pursued as significantly as their Reiklander and Middenlander cousins since the Cult of Taal was not as… passionate about cutting them down. Still a tense relationship though. The Talabeclander Hedgefolk only take apprentices from within their extended family.
Reikland: Known as Cunning Folk, so likely worship Ranald. They were pursued and significantly persecuted by Sigmarites, including a range of burnings that resulted in them being very careful. They mostly train their apprentices straight after their Dooming.
Hochland: Not much is known about them aside from them requiring long oaths of obedience from their apprentices.
Now we get into the meat of things: Hedge Magic.
Hedge Magic is sort of unique. It's a Witch Lore that is heavily based around material components, generally with a ritualistic significance. Stuff like a cup of blood drawn when Morrisleb is full, a rod polished on Sonnstill or other equally ridiculous thing. If they do not have this material ingredient, then they roll extra casting die equal to the bonus the ingredient gives them (1 dice if it gives +1, 2 dice if it gives +2 etc). This dice does not count towards casting, but counts towards Tzeentch's Curse (miscasting). Basically, narratively Hedge Wizards without ingredients are really risking it, and some of these ingredients aren't that easy to get.
While most Hedgefolk can produce the charms and potions and stuff that the tradition allows, only the Blessed can cast these spells. The Blessed are capable of binding familiars, and their spells are largely focused on the Hedge, the conceptual border between physical and material. This generally means they have a lot of ward spells, as well as spells to interact with spiritual/ethereal stuff. Hedge Magic is split into three "lists" for balance reasons, but narratively it could be justified as different focuses.
The first list is Cunning Folk/Wise One. This is the most well known one, focused on warding and protection spells against Daemons, spirits and even other Witches(and to be clear, I'm talking Witches, not Wizards, necromancer, priests or Chaos Sorcerers). The second list is called "Craftsmen", focusing on charms and talismans. The last is a relatively unknown art, "Hedge Walking" focused on walking through the Hedge, these individuals are "masters of the spirit world".
The spell list is under the spoiler:
As you may guess, the Grey Order takes an interest in an order of magic users that dwell in boundaries, are appropriately secretive and well connected, and uncorrupted by Chaos, as the Hedgefolk are so often pure of taint despite practicing extensive magic use. This is why the Grey Order seeks out the Hedgefolk for recruitment, which has resulted in the whole deal with Kurtis Krammovitch.
Which is another thing I want to mention. Lord Magister Kurtis Krammovitch is a canonical character, but if you're expecting the book to portray him like Boney has, then it is not the case. The broad strokes of Kurtis being an Ostermarker Hedgecrafter who saw his parents burnt by a Bright Magister, became one of the Blessed Few and infiltrated the Grey Order is all the same. But in the book his "double agent" status is supposed to be a secret that he's trying to keep from the authorities. The congenial relationship he shares with Algard in DL and the whole multiple flips between loyalties are all things unique to DL, in canon he takes dozens of apprentices and trains them in Hedgefolk tradition while maintaining them in the Grey Order.
A notable thing is Kurtis taking in and training the Reiklander Hedgemaster Markus Fischer around 2502 IC. I note him because he's a Grey Lord Magister in canon who carries a sword and seems to be very competent and skilled. It's unfortunate he's on the verge of insanity due to sheer stress from his continued loyalty to the Hedgefolk and his position in the order putting him at odds. He's definitely not a thing yet in DL, but I imagine Boney would do him differently.
Fun fact, that story about Verena tricking Ulgu and picking up the sword of Tlanxla to fight at a great Pyramid which apparently inspires the Grey Order's symbol of the sword? The story was told by Markus Fischer in canon, who apparently is really chummy with elves. He has Arcane Language (Arcane Elf +10%), indicating he somehow charmed Anoqeyan out of elves.
Alright, getting into it. First off, the Hedgefolk are an ancient group of magic practitioners that have existed for "as long as humans wandered the Reik Basin", and they seem to be geographically locked around the region. There are dozens of splinters and distinct cultural differences between many of the Hedgefolk, but they follow a lot of the same generalities that is mostly modified by the history of the area they're in and who they worship. And that's something important.
The Hedgefolk don't seem to be secular. The defining factor of the Hedgefolk is that they all practice "Hedgecraft", a series of rituals, rites and practices handed down from Master to Apprentice over the years to harness the "Hedge". The Hedge is defined as the conceptual border between wilderness and civilisation in folklore, but the Hedgefolk take this even further and define it as the border between the material and spirit realms. However, while all the Hedgefolk may practice Hedgecraft, only the "Blessed Few" can actually manifest magical abilities.
The Blessed Few are aethyrically attuned individuals that are viewed as being blessed by the gods and capable of channeling their power to access the Hedge through the rituals of Hedgecraft. Except their magic is distinctly not Divine, and it is not an Arcane or Dark Lore either. Their magic is classified in Shades of Empire as a "Witch Lore", just like the Ungol Hags and Ice Witches of Kislev. It is also stated that a person with a Witch Lore can only learn one Witch Lore, and may never learn a Divine, Arcane, Dark or another Witch lore. I'm not sure this extends to DL, as Kurtis Krammovitch seems able to use Hedge and Grey Magic.
In terms of their structure, the Hedgefolk are typically village folk who live in rural areas and small communities, tending to live at the edge of these communities to bring themselves closer to the border/boundaries, pushing them closer to the hedge. They are generally known as "Cunning Folk" or "Wise Ones" and typically consulted for all manner of potions, talismans, charms, cures and all sorts of stuff, and act as the town's apothecary and "magic consultant". Hedgefolk tend to have insular communities centered around their extended family and tuned in to the local community due to intermarriage and consistent contact.
Hedgefolk have a hierarchy. It goes with the Apprentices at the bottom, Hedge Masters/Mistresses above them, and then the Hedgwise at the top within a local community. A Hedgewise rules based on tradition and respect, as the Hedgefolk respect traditions and most end up apprenticed to the Hedgewise or a Hedgemaster that turns into a Hedgewise. A Hedgewise is determined by a council of Hedgemasters when the Hedgewise dies, and it's typically the oldest and wisest of them. The apprenticeship traditions of the Hedgewise can vary wildly between master to master and province to province, but the general commonality is that if you're one of the Blessed Few you're guaranteed to be apprenticed and turned into a master or Hedgewise. Many of these Blessed Few end up being taught their traditions by masters who don't have magical abilities, due to lack of Blessed Few these days.
In terms of their history, it's mostly a tragic one. The Hedgefolk were respected and accepted by most communities for a very long time, but with the passage of time and the establishment of the major cults, the Cults of Sigmar, Taal and Ulric took issue to these witches and during the Time of Three Emperors pursued and persecuted them. Specifically the Cults of Sigmar in Reikland and the Cult of Ulric in Middenland, the Cult of Taal was busy with its own things.
After a long period of persecution, the Great War against Chaos happens and the Colleges form. In DL, many of the Hedgefolk left to join the colleges, but many also stayed. They didn't view the seers, druids, elementalists, alchemists and the like that were joining the Colleges to be anything like them, they weren't Hedgefolk or Blessed Few, so they shunned the Colleges.
It was a mistake, because they ended up being hunted too. For extermination by Witch Hunters, and recruitment by the Colleges. And while the Colleges would be happy to accept Hedgefolk, the response to them refusing the invitation usually isn't to let them go.
The Hedgefolk try to not attract the attention of the authorities and they hate Chaos and other untrained practitioners of magic like Witches, Warlocks and Necromancers. They will hunt them down as they attract attention that they do not want to come to their heads. Hedgefolk will often be protected from Witch Hunter attention by locals who have good relations with them, and the Hedgefolk escape to areas they call Hedgeholes to hide out. Hedgefolk don't practice secret signs and codes after a disastrous massacre in the Veldt in Ostermark followed by burnings across Reikland in 2231 IC at the hands of Sigmarite infiltrators who found out their codes. Now they generally keep to themselves and have people watching out for the urban centers to keep unwanted attention away. Most Hedgefolk are concentrated around the forests.
It is of the utmost importance that Hedgefolk pass on their knowledge so that it doesn't die out, so every Hedge Master is required to have at least one apprentice. More traditional provinces like Nordland and Middenland make this a religious imperative.
Hedgefolk have many splinters based on their province, so I'll list them one by one. The commonalities between them seems to be that all of them are dedicated to one god or another, typically Ranald or Haletha I believe, but they're not restricted to that as some worship Verena. The only province that hasn't had any Hedgefolk mentioned is Stirland.
Ostland: Reside in the Forest of Shadows, worship their protector goddess Haletha. Fairly insular but has good relations with Ungol Hag Witches from Kislev, which results in them sheltering Hag Witches during a crackdown and the Hag Witches doing the same to the Hedgefolk. The Hag Witches dislike male mages because they believe they fall to the Ruinous Powers easier and will not assist male Hedgefolk. Thankfully for the Ostlanders, they believe the same, so this isn't much of an issue. They are currently dying out as a result of an encounter with a Necromancer in DL and their subsequent refusal to accept help from the other Hedgefolk.
Ostermark: Known as "Wise Ones", which is described in the book as those who believe that they were granted the knowledge of the Hedge by Verena. Have the same deal with Hag Witches that Ostlanders have as well as female dominance of the trade for the same reasons. As mentioned above, they were infiltrated by Sigmarites so they're probably quite cautious.
Nordland: Reside in the Forest of Shadows and worship Haletha, they watch over the forest. Some hardliners from the province ritually brand/scar their apprentices as initiation.
Averland: Believe themselves to be descended from "Brigundian Priest-Kings". Brigundians are the Averland pre-Imperial tribe, well known for their horses and chariots. The phrase Priest King and the chariots remind me of a particular civilisation down south that has at one point or another conquered all the way to the south of the Empire, Nehekhara, so it's possible that their traditions descend from them if my theory is correct.
Wissenland: Known as "Wise Ones" and worship Verena. They only take apprentices from outside their extended family, eager to expand Hedgefolk acceptance among as much of the local family groups as possible for their safety.
Middenland: Known as Cunning Folk and worship Ranald. Tricky and dislike the Ulricans in their province due to long term prosecution by the Ulricans due to the enmity between Ulricans and Ranaldites.
Talabecland: They were not pursued as significantly as their Reiklander and Middenlander cousins since the Cult of Taal was not as… passionate about cutting them down. Still a tense relationship though. The Talabeclander Hedgefolk only take apprentices from within their extended family.
Reikland: Known as Cunning Folk, so likely worship Ranald. They were pursued and significantly persecuted by Sigmarites, including a range of burnings that resulted in them being very careful. They mostly train their apprentices straight after their Dooming.
Hochland: Not much is known about them aside from them requiring long oaths of obedience from their apprentices.
Now we get into the meat of things: Hedge Magic.
Hedge Magic is sort of unique. It's a Witch Lore that is heavily based around material components, generally with a ritualistic significance. Stuff like a cup of blood drawn when Morrisleb is full, a rod polished on Sonnstill or other equally ridiculous thing. If they do not have this material ingredient, then they roll extra casting die equal to the bonus the ingredient gives them (1 dice if it gives +1, 2 dice if it gives +2 etc). This dice does not count towards casting, but counts towards Tzeentch's Curse (miscasting). Basically, narratively Hedge Wizards without ingredients are really risking it, and some of these ingredients aren't that easy to get.
While most Hedgefolk can produce the charms and potions and stuff that the tradition allows, only the Blessed can cast these spells. The Blessed are capable of binding familiars, and their spells are largely focused on the Hedge, the conceptual border between physical and material. This generally means they have a lot of ward spells, as well as spells to interact with spiritual/ethereal stuff. Hedge Magic is split into three "lists" for balance reasons, but narratively it could be justified as different focuses.
The first list is Cunning Folk/Wise One. This is the most well known one, focused on warding and protection spells against Daemons, spirits and even other Witches(and to be clear, I'm talking Witches, not Wizards, necromancer, priests or Chaos Sorcerers). The second list is called "Craftsmen", focusing on charms and talismans. The last is a relatively unknown art, "Hedge Walking" focused on walking through the Hedge, these individuals are "masters of the spirit world".
The spell list is under the spoiler:
Relatively Simple:
Invigorate: The Adrenaline Spell. Using a live snail, the user fools the body into feeling fresh and alert, giving a boost to movement, agility and intelligence to represent boosted reflexes. After one minute, the spell ends and the user needs to tough it out or suffer a caffeine crash as their body rebels against the effort it was forced to endure.
Purify: Using a reed filled with fresh toad spit, the user can purify any non magical contaminants within a target receptacle, including poisons and pollution from a liquid, rendering it drinkable.
Dagger of the Art: Using a thorn cut when Mannisleb is new, you craft a wooden dagger. The weapon is magical and deals significant additional damage to spirits and "Chaos Tainted Creatures". The Dagger lasts for roughly a minute, but you can struggle to make it last a bit longer.
Part the Branches: Using the ash of a hawthorn branch that has been burnt at noon, you can see into the "Spirit World". What this means is largely up to the GM (the literal words of the book), but at minimum it allows one to see Daemons, spirits, as well as invisible and ethereal creatures. This spell lasts for 1 hour per "Magic Level" (max 4 hours, although Hedgewise cap out at Magic 3 so more like 3 hours).
Moderately Complicated:
Protection Pouch: Using a small leather pouch made from the flesh of a bat, the user creates a few small purple herbs. Whoever holds all of these herbs have a bonus to resisting magic, poison and disease for as long as it lasts. The herbs last for 1 week per magic level.
The Ousting: Using a spherical stone buried for a month within a fresh stream, you can banish one spirit or Daemon 6 yards to its place of origin. The creature may be able to resist, but if it works then they're banished for 1d10 years per Magic level (max 30 years).
Haletha's Joy: Using a rod of poplar polished with beeswax on Sonnstill, the user can bless a couple. Assuming the partners are fertile, conception is guaranteed. Lasts for 1 day per magic level or until it is used up.
Sightstep: Using the wings of a dragonfly that has been killed with a silver pin, the user obscures themself with the Hedge. Individuals with the "magical sense" skill get nothing from one who has cast sightstep. Daemons, Spirits and ethereal creatures find it much harder to detect whoever has cast the spell.
Nepenthe: Using a fingernail from the individual the target wishes to forget, the user can create magic smokey liquid to fill a small cup. If a willing individual drinks from this cup, they will forget one individual (that they want to forget) and everything involved with that individual. The spell is permanent.
Silvertide: Using a lodestone dipped in honey, the user attracts wealth. They can get money from the ground, more money than expected from deep pockets, from nooks and crannies, behind people's ears and so on. This spell lasts for 6 hours. However, if the user fails in casting the spell, they immediately suffer a miscast. If they miscast while failing to cast the spell, the miscast is worse as it compounds on it.
Wyrd Ward: Using a hair from the warded witch, the caster touches an opposing Witch and they become cursed for one hour per magic level. Every time the Witch attempts to cast a spell, they must resist a near irresistible compulsion to stop casting, or else their spell is wasted. This only works on Witches.
Fiendishly Complex:
Nostrum: Using a toe or finger from the target, the caster produces a greenish liquid from their fingertip. When the target drinks from it, they will be immediately cured of one disease.
Myrkride: Using the freshly boiled heart of a mouse, the user steps into the hedge, the border between the spirit and material worlds. The caster becomes ethereal for 10 seconds per magic level, and can extend it with some effort. While ethereal, the user is insubstantial, weightless and completely silent. The user can pass through solid objects and may not be affected by non magical means, and has the ability to directly interact with Daemons, spirits and other ethereal creatures.
Fellstave: Using a cup of blood drawn when Morrslieb was full, the user may enchant an area so that any creatures of a specific race that are within a hundred yards are endlessly compelled to move away from it within its duration. The race specification lump in all Daemons together, and strangely enough lumps in Skaven along with Beastmen. The caster must learn a different variation of the spell for each individual race they want to exclude. The spell lasts for 1 month per magic level.
Lovelock: Using a lock of hair from the target, the user creates a love potion. If the target drinks it, they fall in love with the first person they see of their race and of the "sex they find attractive" (this is the wording of the book, I'm of a mind to use gender myself). The exact extremes of "in love" are determined by the GM (book's wording). Spell lasts until midnight.
Hedgewalk: Using a bone that has been buried beneath a hedgerow for 1 month, the user sends their spirit into the Hedge. The body is considered helpless while the soul can wander. The soul is still limited by physical boundaries, but is completely invisible and silent to anyone in the physical realm. Spirits, ethereal creatures and Daemons are visible and may be interacted with. The soul cannot interact with things in the physical realm. The spell lasts for one hour per magic level, but can end prematurely by touching the physical body with the spirit.
Invigorate: The Adrenaline Spell. Using a live snail, the user fools the body into feeling fresh and alert, giving a boost to movement, agility and intelligence to represent boosted reflexes. After one minute, the spell ends and the user needs to tough it out or suffer a caffeine crash as their body rebels against the effort it was forced to endure.
Purify: Using a reed filled with fresh toad spit, the user can purify any non magical contaminants within a target receptacle, including poisons and pollution from a liquid, rendering it drinkable.
Dagger of the Art: Using a thorn cut when Mannisleb is new, you craft a wooden dagger. The weapon is magical and deals significant additional damage to spirits and "Chaos Tainted Creatures". The Dagger lasts for roughly a minute, but you can struggle to make it last a bit longer.
Part the Branches: Using the ash of a hawthorn branch that has been burnt at noon, you can see into the "Spirit World". What this means is largely up to the GM (the literal words of the book), but at minimum it allows one to see Daemons, spirits, as well as invisible and ethereal creatures. This spell lasts for 1 hour per "Magic Level" (max 4 hours, although Hedgewise cap out at Magic 3 so more like 3 hours).
Moderately Complicated:
Protection Pouch: Using a small leather pouch made from the flesh of a bat, the user creates a few small purple herbs. Whoever holds all of these herbs have a bonus to resisting magic, poison and disease for as long as it lasts. The herbs last for 1 week per magic level.
The Ousting: Using a spherical stone buried for a month within a fresh stream, you can banish one spirit or Daemon 6 yards to its place of origin. The creature may be able to resist, but if it works then they're banished for 1d10 years per Magic level (max 30 years).
Haletha's Joy: Using a rod of poplar polished with beeswax on Sonnstill, the user can bless a couple. Assuming the partners are fertile, conception is guaranteed. Lasts for 1 day per magic level or until it is used up.
Sightstep: Using the wings of a dragonfly that has been killed with a silver pin, the user obscures themself with the Hedge. Individuals with the "magical sense" skill get nothing from one who has cast sightstep. Daemons, Spirits and ethereal creatures find it much harder to detect whoever has cast the spell.
Nepenthe: Using a fingernail from the individual the target wishes to forget, the user can create magic smokey liquid to fill a small cup. If a willing individual drinks from this cup, they will forget one individual (that they want to forget) and everything involved with that individual. The spell is permanent.
Silvertide: Using a lodestone dipped in honey, the user attracts wealth. They can get money from the ground, more money than expected from deep pockets, from nooks and crannies, behind people's ears and so on. This spell lasts for 6 hours. However, if the user fails in casting the spell, they immediately suffer a miscast. If they miscast while failing to cast the spell, the miscast is worse as it compounds on it.
Wyrd Ward: Using a hair from the warded witch, the caster touches an opposing Witch and they become cursed for one hour per magic level. Every time the Witch attempts to cast a spell, they must resist a near irresistible compulsion to stop casting, or else their spell is wasted. This only works on Witches.
Fiendishly Complex:
Nostrum: Using a toe or finger from the target, the caster produces a greenish liquid from their fingertip. When the target drinks from it, they will be immediately cured of one disease.
Myrkride: Using the freshly boiled heart of a mouse, the user steps into the hedge, the border between the spirit and material worlds. The caster becomes ethereal for 10 seconds per magic level, and can extend it with some effort. While ethereal, the user is insubstantial, weightless and completely silent. The user can pass through solid objects and may not be affected by non magical means, and has the ability to directly interact with Daemons, spirits and other ethereal creatures.
Fellstave: Using a cup of blood drawn when Morrslieb was full, the user may enchant an area so that any creatures of a specific race that are within a hundred yards are endlessly compelled to move away from it within its duration. The race specification lump in all Daemons together, and strangely enough lumps in Skaven along with Beastmen. The caster must learn a different variation of the spell for each individual race they want to exclude. The spell lasts for 1 month per magic level.
Lovelock: Using a lock of hair from the target, the user creates a love potion. If the target drinks it, they fall in love with the first person they see of their race and of the "sex they find attractive" (this is the wording of the book, I'm of a mind to use gender myself). The exact extremes of "in love" are determined by the GM (book's wording). Spell lasts until midnight.
Hedgewalk: Using a bone that has been buried beneath a hedgerow for 1 month, the user sends their spirit into the Hedge. The body is considered helpless while the soul can wander. The soul is still limited by physical boundaries, but is completely invisible and silent to anyone in the physical realm. Spirits, ethereal creatures and Daemons are visible and may be interacted with. The soul cannot interact with things in the physical realm. The spell lasts for one hour per magic level, but can end prematurely by touching the physical body with the spirit.
As you may guess, the Grey Order takes an interest in an order of magic users that dwell in boundaries, are appropriately secretive and well connected, and uncorrupted by Chaos, as the Hedgefolk are so often pure of taint despite practicing extensive magic use. This is why the Grey Order seeks out the Hedgefolk for recruitment, which has resulted in the whole deal with Kurtis Krammovitch.
Which is another thing I want to mention. Lord Magister Kurtis Krammovitch is a canonical character, but if you're expecting the book to portray him like Boney has, then it is not the case. The broad strokes of Kurtis being an Ostermarker Hedgecrafter who saw his parents burnt by a Bright Magister, became one of the Blessed Few and infiltrated the Grey Order is all the same. But in the book his "double agent" status is supposed to be a secret that he's trying to keep from the authorities. The congenial relationship he shares with Algard in DL and the whole multiple flips between loyalties are all things unique to DL, in canon he takes dozens of apprentices and trains them in Hedgefolk tradition while maintaining them in the Grey Order.
A notable thing is Kurtis taking in and training the Reiklander Hedgemaster Markus Fischer around 2502 IC. I note him because he's a Grey Lord Magister in canon who carries a sword and seems to be very competent and skilled. It's unfortunate he's on the verge of insanity due to sheer stress from his continued loyalty to the Hedgefolk and his position in the order putting him at odds. He's definitely not a thing yet in DL, but I imagine Boney would do him differently.
Fun fact, that story about Verena tricking Ulgu and picking up the sword of Tlanxla to fight at a great Pyramid which apparently inspires the Grey Order's symbol of the sword? The story was told by Markus Fischer in canon, who apparently is really chummy with elves. He has Arcane Language (Arcane Elf +10%), indicating he somehow charmed Anoqeyan out of elves.
There's also mention in Tome of Salvation that the proto-imperial tribes only split the institutions of chief and priest after encountering the Tilean Cults. Before then temporal and sacred authority was unified in the person of the chief.
Edit: According to Sigmar's heirs, the Brigundians first entered the Reik Basin in or around -1,000 IC. Nehekhara was destroyed in -1,151 IC. It's possible that they were one of the minority of tribes in that confederation that had previously inhabited what were soon to become the Badlands and were descended from a Nehkharan vassal there.
Last edited:
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Priest King of what though? There's tons of information about what gods were worshipped from which part. Talutens and Taal as well as Teutogens and Ulric are confirmed. It's speculated by ToS that the Cherusens of Hochland worshipped Lupos, the Ostagoths worshipped Morr (the name Morr is from Tilea, but Morr as a god existed before Tilea came in with their name), the Merogens with Ahalt, the Menogoths with Soll, and Manaan with the Endals (although Boney said Manaan with Jutones so I'd go with that over Endals). Averland's Brigundians is never mentioned. What were they Priest Kings of? That is never defined.
Also, chariots are not an imperial thing. The reason why is obvious, most of the Empire is forests and other treacherous terrain that sucks for chariots. Chariots were however super popular with the Tomb Kings, and with the Brigundians because it's the one of the only expansive flat plains you get on the Empire. Hell, they abandoned their chariots after they joined up with the rest of the Empire. My theory is that they got their idea for chariots from the Tomb Kings, since clearly no one else would have come up with the idea in the Empire's terrain.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Probably Ahlat. An Averland/Solland agriculture god associated with bulls. Also the Solland/Averland area has been associated with chariots for about as long as the sigmar story has been in canon. Their queen fighting at black fire pass ona chariot is in all the versions I've seen
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Queen? I'm pretty sure Queen Freya is for the Asoborn of Stirland and Siggurd is the leader of the Brigundians.
We don't know who the patron deity of the Brigundians was, but Tome of Salvation explicitly tells us that many of these gods have been forgotten, and only some survived into the modern day.
All of the proto-Imperial tribes either came from the proto-Badlands or east of the World's Edge Mountains, which are plains that would be prime chariot territory. They would have brought their chariots with them - and it's worst noting that Averland is probably the province that combines having plains and not having trees to encourage them to keep using them until technology improved.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yes, and the Tomb Kings dominated the Near Badlands, including the Border Princes and sometimes all the way to the south of the Empire, all the way until their destruction around -1100 IC, and Mourkhain was made soon after. The pre-Imperials arrived around -1000 IC. The very simply conclusion I'm making is that they were influenced by the Tomb Kings, who dominated the "near badlands" area you're saying they might have come from.
Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
- Location
- At Home
Perhaps Haletha? Outside of the Hedgewise, we never hear about her having any sort of Cult, or being worshipped by the regular folk of the Empire, not even any mention of having been proscribed as you would find for other gods like Stromfels, Gunndred or Vylmar.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Haletha is described as the patron goddess of the Forest of Shadow and worshipped by the Nordlanders and Ostlanders in the forest. There is an example of a Wissenlander Hedgewise with a shrine to Haletha, but at large the other Hedgefolk worship Ranald and Verena most prominently.
Fayhem
Definitely not an escaped SCP
- Location
- At large
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Not to umtechnically a basically valid and relevant note, but to actually do that umtechnically I think that would be Emperor Mannfred von Carstein. Since that's the one whose army got nuked by the Grand Theogonist reading a spell from the Liber Mortis; Vlad just got tackled onto a wooden stake by the Grand Theogonist after Mannfred arranged for his "fuck you, I'm alive again" ring to get stolen.
Yeah, this. If we wanted Mathilde to focus on changing the Empire, that would have been the Bodyguard/Influence Builder job that Heidirella offered. Which would have been a dope job, I wound up very tempted by it. But we went with Waystones. Which should also be dope, but is unlikely to focus on getting deep into Imperial politics (AFAICT at this point).
Last edited:
The patron god of the Menogoths was Söll, god of the sun, but he lost out in the struggle with the Cult of Taal over nature related domains in the thousand years that the tribes lived in the Reik basin before Sigmar after encountered and apparently absorbing some Tilean tradition religious practices.
Well, -1151 IC. As you say, Mourkain was apparently founded a few years later, apparently in -1,147 from the tribes of the Badlands, and Ushoran took over after a major Waaagh in -1,020 IC. The tribes of the southern Badlands were conquered by King Setep in -1,200 IC, and then the northern Badlands and border princes and very south of the empire by Alcadizaar shortly afterwards. That means that Nehekharans didn't rule for very long, but a few decades is probably long enough to pick up chariot riding, so you could well be right.
I keep losing the link to this map, which I think is a pretty interesting one. Presumably Alcadizaar had made a deal with the dwarves to allow passage through the mountains. I wonder what they made o fit, for a few decades it must have been a blessed relief for Karak Eight Peaks to have the lands on both sides of the World's Edge to be controlled by a friendly power. This was when there were still apparently some of the pre-Imperial human tribes living east of the World's Edge, although north of Alcadizaar's conquests.
Last edited:
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
For what it's worth, that Necromancer could be a very big deal. The Forest of Shadows is where Melkhior and then Zacharias lived.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I feel like if it was Melkhior or Zacharias chances are "Necromancer" wouldn't be used, "Vampire" would. It's very hard to mistake a Necrarch for anything else. Unless they didn't see them at all and were just completely mauled by undead.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I'm really hoping that planning out our library can eke ahead a few more votes. Talking to Belegar isn't time sensitive, but you only get to plan out the construction of a megaproject like this once in your lifetime.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
That entirely depends on how long your lifetime is!
